Paris is Burning (1991) documentary.

PhilBill

Anyone seen this documentary? It looks at the LGBT ball culture in New York during the 1980's. Pretty interesting look at a subculture that completely abstains from the dominant norms.

The Bould Rabbit

Yeah but what's it about like ?

dr.bollocko

The Bould Rabbit wrote: »

Yeah but what's it about like ?

Hilton sex tape while she has a UTI.

PhilBill

The Bould Rabbit wrote: »

Yeah but what's it about like ?

Gay African Americans who were victims of the dominant society in New York during the 1980's. Its an insight into the world of the "Ball culture" in which men and women preformed in drag and a number of different categories such as "Butch Queen" and "Realness". Some pretty interesting stuff.

Duck's hoop

It annoys me more than it should when people use an apostrophe after numbers. Fcuking hate it.

Links234

dr.bollocko wrote: »

Hilton sex tape while she has a UTI.

Wooooo, what a burn! Wait a sec, burn? Multiple entendre!

The Bould Rabbit

PhilBill wrote: »

Gay African Americans who were victims of the dominant society in New York during the 1980's. Its an insight into the world of the "Ball culture" in which men and women preformed in drag and a number of different categories such as "Butch Queen" and "Realness". Some pretty interesting stuff.

I think I'll pass.

Couldn't really give a toss about what some gay black blokes got up to in New York or Paris or wherever 30 years ago.

I'd be more of a Father Ted fan myself but each to their own.

Venus In Furs

Seen a documentary about said documentary. Looks very good.

ireland.man

The Bould Rabbit wrote: »

I think I'll pass.

Couldn't really give a toss about what some gay black blokes got up to in New York or Paris or wherever 30 years ago.

I'd be more of a Father Ted fan myself but each to their own.

Taking the time to post in a thread to say you're not interested in the thread...

Reminds me of whenever a teacher asks the students if anyone has been to a certain place or done something in particular, and one student always puts up his hand and when picked, says "I haven't!"

Karl Stein

ireland.man wrote: »

Reminds me of whenever a teacher asks the students if anyone has been to a certain place or done something in particular, and one student always puts up his hand and when picked, says "I haven't!"

Bizarre isn't it? Is it Egocentrism?

Egocentrism

having or regarding the self or the individual as the center of all things: an egocentric philosophy that ignores social causes. having little or no regard for interests, beliefs, or attitudes other than one's own; self-centered: an egocentric person; egocentric demands upon the time and patience of others.

Fakman87

In fairness to the bould rabbit he did ask what it was about before saying he wasn't interested.

jaja321

Yeah, saw it on Netflix - brilliant and very moving - well worth a watch.

One eyed Jack

jaja321 wrote: »

Yeah, saw it on Netflix - brilliant and very moving - well worth a watch.

Also available on Youtube -

Downloading it now after reading the Wikipedia entry.

Littlekittylou

PhilBill wrote: »

Anyone seen this documentary? It looks at the LGBT ball culture in New York during the 1980's. Pretty interesting look at a subculture that completely abstains from the dominant norms.

Watch 'The Queen'.



Crystal LaBeija:
'she's beautiful and she's young,.... you deserve the best in life darling but you didn't deserve it tonight'.


Yes I have seen Paris is Burning. Sad as much as it is fascinating. The underage sex workers who were basically kicked out of their homes for being gay and onto the streets.

It shows a lot of the best and worst of human nature. people who have a lot of prejudices against them and who have learned to survive with wit, dignity and energy. It's a little story about how we all survive. You have a choice when your down you either get together by positive behaviors or negative ones.You can either shoplift those shoes or do without them until you save up. But if you nick them then you are just a girl in a pair of shoes. If you save up then you're somebody. If you save up and put your self together with wit and charm then your really the bell of the ball.
There is a quote in the film about that. I'll never forget it.
'People can tell'

It's kind of like the saying 'nice guys finish last'. The guy/ girl who steals the shoes gets them first. But the person who saves for them or even buys a pair of cheap ass shoes is 'it'. They can say yeah this is me. I am golden I am not just the bell of the ball. When I go home and close the door I am still the gold. I still like me. Nice guys are gold when they shut the door. The nasty ones aren't. And even if people can't tell. 'You can tell.' There is a quote about that in Paris is burning.

A lot of people in the gay community and straight go out on the town to be who they are not in real life. But when you close the door you are you. A lot of the people in the documentary have to contend with prejudice and adversity that I can't even imagine. Young poor minority trans people etc. Some would take low paying jobs and save for outfits and some would shoplift or try prostitution and compete in 'balls'. But 'you can tell' the difference.

There is an obviously difference between the poor , somewhere in the middle and the rich. But the difference between those who are 'golden' 'legit' or 'the nice guy' vrs the shoplifter or the grifter or the prostitute is not so obvious and it seems the world does not always care.

It's interesting in contrast to the LGBT community here which only recently became more diverse.

One of the saddest parts though was ' Venus extravaganza'. Underage and homeless prostituting himself /herself to old men. I was really disturbed by that. She looked obviously way too young. And it was that which drew a lot of them to her. They were living their 'straight lives' etc far away from it all. She had been thrown out of her family home for being gay and possibly transgender.

And yet it was older people who for no other reason than to help 'Venus' gave her a home.
It's a multi-leveled exploration of a subculture in African American and Latino cultures that proves to be a microcosm of the best and worst of people.

You can get by with strength and good humor or turn nasty. And that materialism can be nasty.

Great music too!

Littlekittylou

PhilBill wrote: »

Gay African Americans who were victims of the dominant society in New York during the 1980's. Its an insight into the world of the "Ball culture" in which men and women preformed in drag and a number of different categories such as "Butch Queen" and "Realness". Some pretty interesting stuff.

I think it is a great documentary though great film making. There are some pretty real life lessons depicted. It transcends the subculture and is something I think everyone can relate to. There are a lot of situations in it in which a lot guts and grace are shown by 'victims' of prejudice and huge injustice. Some of the people who have the toughest lives in the film are the most generous and tenacious. Really compelling viewing. And a wake up call to society.

tigger123

Seen it before and its fantastic. Very poignant ending too, stayed with me for a while after seeing it. Would highly recommend it.

Littlekittylou

tigger123 wrote: »

Seen it before and its fantastic. Very poignant ending too, stayed with me for a while after seeing it. Would highly recommend it.

Me too!

The Bould Rabbit

ireland.man wrote: »

Taking the time to post in a thread to say you're not interested in the thread...

That's not fair. I asked what it was about and just came back to say it wouldn't be my thing based on the reply I got.

Are we only supposed to comment on the thread if we saw the documentary and think its fabulous?

ireland.man wrote: »

Reminds me of whenever a teacher asks the students if anyone has been to a certain place or done something in particular, and one student always puts up his hand and when picked, says "I haven't!"

Apt use of the classroom analogy there. Your sneer at me is similar to the bully boy tactics seen in many classrooms. The loud boy at the back says something smart arsed at someone else's expense in order to seek the attention of all the other boys.

We call it thanks whoring now.

Karl Stein

Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight!
Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight!
Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Scrap! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight!
Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight!
Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight!

PhilBill

The Bould Rabbit wrote: »

That's not fair. I asked what it was about and just came back to say it wouldn't be my thing based on the reply I got.

Are we only supposed to comment on the thread if we saw the documentary and think its fabulous?



Apt use of the classroom analogy there. Your sneer at me is similar to the bully boy tactics seen in many classrooms. The loud boy at the back says something smart arsed at someone else's expense in order to seek the attention of all the other boys.

We call it thanks whoring now.

Karl Stein wrote: »

Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight!
Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight!
Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Scrap! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight!
Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight!
Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight!

The aim of this thread was mainly to talk about the prejudices and victimization that gay African Americans were subdued to in the 1980s. Not for bickering. In some sense the documentary could be generalized to the childish antics happening right now in this thread.

Links234

The Bould Rabbit wrote: »

That's not fair. I asked what it was about and just came back to say it wouldn't be my thing based on the reply I got.

Don't take it personally, I think folks were just commenting about something quite a lot of people do that gets their goat, and your post just happened to fall into that.

Cienciano

The Bould Rabbit wrote: »

That's not fair. I asked what it was about and just came back to say it wouldn't be my thing based on the reply I got.

Are we only supposed to comment on the thread if we saw the documentary and think its fabulous?



Apt use of the classroom analogy there. Your sneer at me is similar to the bully boy tactics seen in many classrooms. The loud boy at the back says something smart arsed at someone else's expense in order to seek the attention of all the other boys.

We call it thanks whoring now.

Tell us more on how you're not interested in it, it's fascinating :pac:

ireland.man

The Bould Rabbit wrote: »

That's not fair. I asked what it was about and just came back to say it wouldn't be my thing based on the reply I got.

Are we only supposed to comment on the thread if we saw the documentary and think its fabulous?



Apt use of the classroom analogy there. Your sneer at me is similar to the bully boy tactics seen in many classrooms. The loud boy at the back says something smart arsed at someone else's expense in order to seek the attention of all the other boys.

We call it thanks whoring now.

I'm sorry if you were insulted by my post and if you really just meant it's not the sort of film you'd like, that's completely fair enough. Genuinely didn't mean to come across as a bit of a bully over your opinions!

But come on, you said "Couldn't really give a toss about what some gay black blokes got up to in New York or Paris or wherever 30 years ago." You can see why I thought you were being dismissive and sneering about a movie other people really like! It's an easy mistake for me to make.

eviltwin

Great film, very sad though. It's good to see that the world has moved on and that we're no longer treating gay people and transsexuals as outcasts.

Cantremember

eviltwin wrote: »

Great film, very sad though. It's good to see that the world has moved on and that we're no longer treating gay people and transsexuals as outcasts.

Well you might say... As much as we used to. There's still the old bigotry around sometimes with more subtle forms of discrimination and exclusion.

My name is URL

Some amount of **** in this thread.

OP asks if other individuals have seen it or what their thoughts are on it and everyone piles on to someone who says they haven't seen it and have no interest in seeing it.

Another win for individualism :rolleyes:

ireland.man

My name is URL wrote: »

Some amount of **** in this thread.

OP asks if other individuals have seen it or what their thoughts are on it and everyone piles on to someone who says they haven't seen it and have no interest in seeing it.

Another win for individualism :rolleyes:

Is it really hard to understand? If a person doesn't like the movie, they should say why in a constructive manner befitting its serious, sensitive subject or they shouldn't say anything at all. Nothing about being an individual or being forced to like a movie here.

PhilBill

eviltwin wrote: »

Great film, very sad though. It's good to see that the world has moved on and that we're no longer treating gay people and transsexuals as outcasts.

Cantremember wrote: »

Well you might say... As much as we used to. There's still the old bigotry around sometimes with more subtle forms of discrimination and exclusion.

Racism of this kind still exists around Dublin at least. I don't know how many times I've walked up George St on my way home from a night out and heard the word ****** or queer shouted from the opposite side of the road.

hfallada

Its an amazing documentary. Its spans several years of filming and shows you old NYC. NYC when it was run down and gritty. The ballrooms were formed when African Americans werent really allowed to enter white gay beauty pageants. Which is funny considering one oppressed minority would discriminate against another oppressed minority. Its a funny film to watch

Its so sad considering all the people in it, pretty died of AIDs related diseases. But the best was when Dorian in it died. They were clearing her apartment and in one box found a body. She murdered her husband, put him into a box and stored him in her apartment for decades.

PhilBill

hfallada wrote: »

Its an amazing documentary. Its spans several years of filming and shows you old NYC. NYC when it was run down and gritty. The ballrooms were formed when African Americans werent really allowed to enter white gay beauty pageants. Which is funny considering one oppressed minority would discriminate against another oppressed minority. Its a funny film to watch

Its so sad considering all the people in it, pretty died of AIDs related diseases. But the best was when Dorian in it died. They were clearing her apartment and in one box found a body. She murdered her husband, put him into a box and stored him in her apartment for decades.

I read of the body they found in Dorian's apartment. The article I read just said "the body of a man who died of AIDS was found in a closet" of her apartment by friends looking for clothes after she had died. Didn't know the body that was found was her husband!

Hande hoche!

PhilBill wrote: »

Racism of this kind still exists around Dublin at least. I don't know how many times I've walked up George St on my way home from a night out and heard the word ****** or queer shouted from the opposite side of the road.

That's homophobia not racism.

One eyed Jack

hfallada wrote: »

Its an amazing documentary. Its spans several years of filming and shows you old NYC. NYC when it was run down and gritty. The ballrooms were formed when African Americans werent really allowed to enter white gay beauty pageants. Which is funny considering one oppressed minority would discriminate against another oppressed minority. Its a funny film to watch.

Its so sad considering all the people in it, pretty died of AIDs related diseases. But the best was when Dorian in it died. They were clearing her apartment and in one box found a body. She murdered her husband, put him into a box and stored him in her apartment for decades.

There's an interesting history behind that though, which has led to black men describing homosexuality as "the white man's perversion" as they don't identify themselves as gay, but moreso simply "on the down-low" while still identifying as heterosexual.

PhilBill

Hande hoche! wrote: »

That's homophobia not racism.

Well that depends on the race of the person that the homophobic slur is aimed at. If it's an Irish person homophobia, but from what I have witnessed most homphobic slurs are aimed at the ethnic gay minority.

Hande hoche!

PhilBill wrote: »

Well that depends on the race of the person that the homophobic slur is aimed at. If it's an Irish person homophobia, but from what I have witnessed most homphobic slurs are aimed at the ethnic gay minority.

Ah my mistake. I thought you were referring to a word that starts with F and rhymes with maggot. Sorry about that.

Also, it is unpleasant. You see eejits shouting abuse at lads coming out of the George or the Dragon.

hotmail.com

PhilBill wrote: »

Well that depends on the race of the person that the homophobic slur is aimed at. If it's an Irish person homophobia, but from what I have witnessed most homphobic slurs are aimed at the ethnic gay minority.

Do you mean that ethnic minorities who are gay are more likely to receive homophobic abuse because of their race over Irish gay people?

hotmail.com

My name is URL wrote: »

Some amount of **** in this thread.

OP asks if other individuals have seen it or what their thoughts are on it and everyone piles on to someone who says they haven't seen it and have no interest in seeing it.

Another win for individualism :rolleyes:

I think the manner of the post is what annoyed people - clearly some issues there.

I presume the poster doesn't post in every thread saying he/she isn't interested in it.

PhilBill

hotmail.com wrote: »

Do you mean that ethnic minorities who are gay are more likely to receive homophobic abuse because of their race over gay people?

Not in any way, I'm only saying that from what I have witnessed on George St ethnic minorities seem to receive more abuse than a gay Irish person. Maybe from other peoples perspectives it could be the opposite. I can only give my perspective.

hotmail.com

PhilBill wrote: »

Not in any way, I'm only saying that from what I have witnessed on George St ethnic minorities seem to receive more abuse than a gay Irish person. Maybe from other peoples perspectives it could be the opposite. I can only give my perspective.

Yes I have to say, there is very little evidence of homophobic abuse on George's Street these days thankfully.

PhilBill

hotmail.com wrote: »

Yes I have to say, there is very little evidence of homophobic abuse on George's Street these days thankfully.

And to be honest most homophobic slurs I have heard on that street seem to be aimed in a friendly manner (As in gay people calling each other princess or the fagggg word). But there are still some drunken idiots that find them selves wandering up Georges St that can't help themselves but to make a homophobic/racist slur in order to impress their small minded friends.

conorh91

Duck's hoop wrote: »

It annoys me more than it should when people use an apostrophe after numbers.

Then you must be at 6's and 7's with grammatical rules, because apostrophes are often allowed.

creolebelle

I love this documentary. It makes wish I was back in that New York City. The city was filled with all kinds of artists and creative types. Gay and black gay culture was booming. Now nyc is sanitized, overpriced and boring

RDM_83 again

creolebelle wrote: »

I love this documentary. It makes wish I was back in that New York City. The city was filled with all kinds of artists and creative types. Gay and black gay culture was booming. Now nyc is sanitized, overpriced and boring

Wasn't also murders, rampant prostitution and general grimness (never visited but apparently it wasn't so nice).
Also as a general point isn't it the best sign of progress that this has happened because it shows that homosexuality is acceptable and unremarkable, my male gay friends aren't defined by their sexuality no more than I am by my hetero-sexuality, they are simply people who are attracted to other men that doesn't mean they have to deliberately differentiate themselves or structure their identity around it (but also not hiding it)

PhilBill

RDM_83 again wrote: »

Wasn't also murders, rampant prostitution and general grimness (never visited but apparently it wasn't so nice).
Also as a general point isn't it the best sign of progress that this has happened because it shows that homosexuality is acceptable and unremarkable, my male gay friends aren't defined by their sexuality no more than I am by my hetero-sexuality, they are simply people who are attracted to other men that doesn't mean they have to deliberately differentiate themselves or structure their identity around it (but also not hiding it)

From what I have taken from this documentary is that the prejudices that were aimed at gay and transgender males of the era in the 1980s(African or otherwise) have become less prevalent in modern day society (all around the world) The fact that people are gay or heterosexual has become common place in the dominant culture of most first world societies and no one literally gives a Fcuk anymore.

One eyed Jack

PhilBill wrote: »

From what I have taken from this documentary is that the prejudices that were aimed at gay and transgender males of the era in the 1980s(African or otherwise) have become less prevalent in modern day society (all around the world) The fact that people are gay or heterosexual has become common place in the dominant culture of most first world societies and no one literally gives a Fcuk anymore.

Erm, yes they do, and very much so - black culture, even in First World USA still very much discriminates against homosexuality, it's ingrained in their culture.

EDIT: A recent example -

http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2014/02/27/new-york-church-erects-sign-warning-black-women-obama-allowed-white-homos-steal-men/

PhilBill

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Erm, yes they do, and very much so - black culture, even in First World USA still very much discriminates against homosexuality, it's ingrained in their culture.

So then why isn't Ireland extremely against homosexuality anymore? Just asking because of Catholicism and the church and so.

One eyed Jack

PhilBill wrote: »

So then why isn't Ireland extremely against homosexuality anymore? Just asking because of Catholicism and the church and so.

There still are many people who are homophobic, and I'm talking young people, not what many would assume are elderly religious people. I don't think young people's hatred of LGBT people in Ireland is motivated by religion either, it's simply because of their own prejudices in seeing LGBT people as different from themselves.

PhilBill

One eyed Jack wrote: »

There still are many people who are homophobic, and I'm talking young people, not what many would assume are elderly religious people. I don't think young people's hatred of LGBT people in Ireland is motivated by religion either, it's simply because of their own prejudices in seeing LGBT people as different from themselves.

Completely changing the topic (which I don't really want to do). But does anyone one speculate here that the many children that are educated in the Catholic schools that the Irish society promotes is the reason for the homophobic or racist views that young Irish adolescents hold against the gay or ethnic minority subcultures? Random question I know.

One eyed Jack

PhilBill wrote: »

Completely changing the topic (which I don't really want to do). But does anyone one speculate here that the many children that are educated in the Catholic schools that the Irish society promotes is the reason for the homophobic or racist views that young Irish adolescents hold against the gay or ethnic minority subcultures? Random question I know.

I don't think so anyway, I think it has more to do with the kind of environment children are brought up in outside the school in fact. Most Irish schools now have anti-bullying policies which include anti-discrimination policies with respect to other children regardless of their gender, race, ethnicity, sexuality or membership of the travelling community.

I think their exposure to the internet too certainly contributes to young people's attitudes towards other people, and while we're come a long way since homosexuality was decriminalised in 1993, I think we have a long way to go in terms of understanding multiculturalism and it's effects on society and integrating people from other countries and cultures into Irish society.

PhilBill

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I don't think so anyway, I think it has more to do with the kind of environment children are brought up in outside the school in fact. Most Irish schools now have anti-bullying policies which include anti-discrimination policies with respect to other children regardless of their gender, race, ethnicity, sexuality or membership of the travelling community.

I think their exposure to the internet too certainly contributes to young people's attitudes towards other people, and while we're come a long way since homosexuality was decriminalised in 1993, I think we have a long way to go in terms of understanding multiculturalism and it's effects on society and integrating people from other countries and cultures into Irish society.

Okay as a person who has grown up in an environment where everything was against me (in a way that no family member ever went to college, most were racist around me all through my life, father was not apart of my life, thrown into sh*t primary schools and technical colleges because they were the cheapest, friends who sold recreational stuff..) not saying any of this has changed my mindset on life (I created my own mindset) but what I feel what you're saying is anyone brought up in a disadvantaged setting becomes homophobic/racist.

I've been subjected to racist family members (many are Taxi men) but that has not made me any way racist. Maybe it has even made more interested in the prejudices that these people are constantly subjected too.

I wouldn't say the environments children are brought up in explains there racist/homophobic views. I would put it on their intelligence levels which gives them an understanding of life. Any person anywhere who believes that what someone says verbally (family or stranger or on the internet) without questioning the authenticity of what they said to them is in my mind not intelligent.

Okay I am pro Multiculturalism. My future children will be going to multicultural schools. I also think that Religion should be removed from primary education and that catholicism should not be imposed on the young children of the Irish society.

But that is just my own personnel opinion.

The Bould Rabbit

hotmail.com wrote: »

I think the manner of the post is what annoyed people - clearly some issues there.

I presume the poster doesn't post in every thread saying he/she isn't interested in it.

I'm actually quite interested in this thread now.

The manner of my post was a light hearted bit of crack while chilling out on Christmas week. That's the issue on After Hours. Try it sometime. Of course I don't comment on every thread. But then, most threads don't open with the same presumptuous undertones like this one did.

The message conveyed there being - Someone saw a documentary. they liked it, everyone else has to like it too. And then the inevitable follow up - Lets round on anyone who says they're not interested and find an angle to attack them.

Its like a Christmas selection box with bars called Gays, Blacks, Victimisation......

Which one would you like me to pick next to further 'offend' your self constructed pre determined angst.

I may not have much interest in the documentary. But I do have some interest in this thread. At least the OP is getting the turnout he/she was hoping for.

hotmail.com

Yeah man definitely issues there with the gays.. happy New year.