And it's Sh!te from the Irish Mirror that's not helping us

clivej

http://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/one-20-owns-firearm-licensing-4841445

BillBen

Looked at it last night. The guards are going all out to get what they want banned.

harney

That was primarily statistics, what was the issue?

Cass

What were the issues? Let's see:

• The use of the word weapons, when we have firearms. My license says firearms license, not weapons license.
• The pictures are of a Beretta 9mm (cannot be licensed anymore), and an air cartridge pistol that looks like a real gun which if it were real it could not be licensed here anymore.
• The "dramatic" rise of 11%, when in fact there has been a 25%+ drop in the last 4 years from 244,000 to 178,000. It's only now lads are licensing "alternative" firearms.
• The picture of a man aiming a gun at the camera. Unnecessarily threatening posture.
• Th pie chart is wrong. There are not 2,000 handguns, and later in the article it says as much.
• The bastardised figures of 350 stolen firearms which does not break down that this includes lost guns, starting pistols, and "bulk" stolen guns from dealers.
• The "deadly" crossbows. A crossbow is classed as a restricted firearm (i sh*t you not) and the trouble to license one is so great i dare say you could count the number of them on both hands.
• The fact they go back 4, 5, 6, 7+ years to make the figures higher.
• They want changes so criminals cannot get a license. An Gardaí are responsible for issuing licenses so if a criminal (convicted) gets a license then it's an institutional failure on behalf of An Gardaí for not vetting that person.
• Lastly you have the likes of Niall Collins saying the process should bee toughened up. As per the other thread on the front page where the live debate was being watched all of the members of the committee said they had no experience with firearms, no knowledge of the basics (and i mean the for dummies basics) of the firearms laws, and did not understand that what they were calling for in terms of legislation already exists, it's simply not enforced by either AGS or the courts.

It's another hack job by a toilet paper rag. Unnecessarily sensationalist, use of skewed figures supplied by a force that wants all guns gone, lies, and inflammatory pictures/language.

The problem we have is they have the ear of such rags, and these types of stories make for great reading and the general public know nothing about firearms so cannot distinguish between the scumbags with illegal guns and us, the sports shooters, that have to:

• Apply for a license on a 9 page application
• Declare exactly what we want/have with serial numbers and traceability
• Sign away our medical privacy
• Give "no warrant"" search powers to AGS
• Have a 3 month background check done
• Have a spotless clean record (no convictions, not even public disorder)
• Have previous experience
• Have security that would rival/exceed some armories
• Allow for "on the spot" home checks
• Maintain memberships at the cost of hundreds/thousands of Euro per year
• Have where we can shot restricted to certain/one area

So other than all that, nothing is wrong. :mad:

harney

Cass wrote: »

What were the issues? Let's see:

So other than all that, nothing is wrong. :mad:

Had the OP not just link dropped and ran, but instead written 10% of what you have I would have thought typical rag and their normal sensationalism.

I was confused about the criminals getting a license, would you not be banned from getting a license if you have a conviction? If so, is it for all convictions or only certain types?

Sparks

harney wrote: »

I was confused about the criminals getting a license

That's because they don't licence their firearms

would you not be banned from getting a license if you have a conviction? If so, is it for all convictions or only certain types?

By law, you're banned from applying for a licence for certain types of crime. In practice (and supported by law), you're refused a licence for anything the Gardai think is serious.

Cass

harney wrote: »

Had the OP not just link dropped and ran, but instead written 10% of what you have I would have thought typical rag and their normal sensationalism.

Two things:

1. As shooters we all know what is currently going on so the thread needs no explaining. That is not meant as a derogatory remark towards those that don't frequent this forum or have firearms, but in the hype of all that is happening it's assumed we know what he means.
2. Thanks to the brain wave of Minister Sherlock the copyright laws in this country are a joke. The OP is not allowed to copy or even use part of the heading. He cannot quote more than 10 words, and as the article cannot be explained in such a short way the link is the safest, quickest and most legal way of highlighting what he wishes to discuss.

I was confused about the criminals getting a license, would you not be banned from getting a license if you have a conviction? If so, is it for all convictions or only certain types?

The only entitlement anyone has is the right to apply. However this does not extend to those that are disentitled. Sounds obvious, but that is how the law is. People that are disentitled cannot even apply but having a charge/conviction is not necessarily a "death sentence" when it comes to applying for a firearm. I mean if you have been charged for no tax or insurance on your car does this make you less safe to own a firearm? The key words here Intemperate Character. This covers

• Those with a criminal record (served time)
• Those with any convictions
• Those with NO convictions but with a history of public disorder issues.
• Those known to be unstable, but not from a mental illness point of view
• Those with mental health issues
• ETc,
• etc.

It covers a multitude of issues and allows for the Superintendent & Chief Superintendent to demand an interview before they sign off on an application as it is they who will be questioned if someone gets a license and abuses that privilege.

airuser

anything for a story.

Try applying for a Licence. Not that easy.

Sparks

1 in 20 have firearms licences.
Hm.
Given that not even the Gardai have that statistic, it seems odd to claim it as a fact...

juice1304

yes it would seem very off considering anyone i know who owns firearms owns multiple firearms, more spin.

riffmongous

Almost one in 20 people in Ireland owns a lethal weapon, we can reveal.

What a load of sensationalist ****, every single house in Ireland has numerous lethal weapons in their kitchen.

Sparks

riffmongous wrote: »

What a load of sensationalist ****, every single house in Ireland has numerous lethal weapons in their kitchen.

Not to mention, they were talking about licenced firearms when they said that.

I didn't know the Gardai would licence something you'd used to kill someone. I would have thought they'd just arrest any applicants...

sfakiaman

8,763 licences for semi-automatic and pump action shotguns. First time I heard that they kept a record of shotguns by action type. I suspect all the other figures quoted are just as unreliable.

Cass

Well considering i had/have license with incorrect labels, and only two days ago my mate got a license and on it the gun was classed as "Semi Auto Double Barrel". Coupled with the things i've said have happened to me (and no doubt others)..............

• A .22 rifle application licensed as a restricted revolver (after November 2008)
• 13 firearms licenses when i only owned 6 guns
• Two guns i sold, down to me even though one was exported
• A gun still licensed to me even though two others have a license on it as a different gun because i called it a CZ, the 2nd lad a Brno, and the last lad a CZ Brno. Same caliber, serial number, etc. throughout.
• A .308 shotgun
• A 12 g bolt action .243 rifle
• A silencer for my 9mm without applying for it
• A silencer for my shotgun without applying for it
• A license for a .22lr "suspended" as another lad had a gun with the same serial number. Even after bringing it into the station i was doubted, but no one had checked the other guy. In the end it was him at fault.

............... the firearm numbers are questionable at best.

Witcher

sfakiaman wrote: »

8,763 licences for semi-automatic and pump action shotguns. First time I heard that they kept a record of shotguns by action type. I suspect all the other figures quoted are just as unreliable.

You have to specify on the FCA1 whether it's a pump, s/a or double barrel.

Cass

You do, but we still rely on someone entering that into PULSE. See my post above.

killintime

fareplay to you cass your on the ball its a joy to read you Comments keep up the good work

aaakev

Strider wrote: »

You have to specify on the FCA1 whether it's a pump, s/a or double barrel.

My pump is down as a single barrel on my license even though i ticked the correct box....

Witcher

aaakev wrote: »

My pump is down as a single barrel on my license even though i ticked the correct box....

That's how they label pumps and s/a's. A lot of shotgun licences don't have a gauge on them either.

aaakev

Strider wrote: »

That's how they label pumps and s/a's. A lot of shotgun licences don't have a gauge on them either.

Exactly so they cant give an accurate number because they lump them in with the single barrels which there is probably a fair few knocking about in older farmers houses

Witcher

aaakev wrote: »

Exactly so they cant give an accurate number because they lump them in with the single barrels which there is probably a fair few knocking about in older farmers houses

Never said they could give an accurate number.

I was just replying to sfakiaman who said he didn't know they collected data on action types. The data is collected as we know but it's just not properly categorised.

ace86

from what I can recall recently the minster herself had no clue of stats what was stolen etc and was waiting from the gardai for some report and this toilet paper rag probably wouldn't even use it for that and they were able to print all the stats and figures that were quoted from the gardai themselves kind of gives a person insight what they really want and instead of protecting the public they are scaring and panicing the public with misinformed lies.

yubabill1

Strider wrote: »

Never said they could give an accurate number.

I was just replying to sfakiaman who said he didn't know they collected data on action types. The data is collected as we know but it's just not properly categorised.

That's the least of AGS' worries - isn't there a controversy going on about crime statistics and their recording on Pulse?

bpb101

Can somebody explain to be how sombody can purchases a fraction of a rifle? I didnt see a box on the application forms

or somebody can rob .01 of a shotgun

Only reason its there is to add 2 zeros
Also the red for danger for them mirror readers

Witcher

It's just the way the data was formatted.

I've used Datawrapper before myself and it adds .00 on to the end of numbers by default.

Chiparus

Amazing that the central statistics office don't believe the Guards, but the Mirror does?

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/cso-may-delay-crime-figures-over-concerns-on-garda-data-1.2004644


and this has been going on for years. this is from 2008!!

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/gardai-massaging-crime-statistics-for-years-new-cso-report-shows-26441540.html



Here are some examples of the Gardai and figures!

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/garda-inspectorate-report-the-numbers-1.1998173

yubabill1

Now look at #firearms thefts with total number of burglaries per year:

Recorded Crime Offences (Number) by Type of Offence and Year


07 Burglary and related offences

2004 24913

2005 26381

2006 24788

2007 23603

2008 24682

2009 26910

2010 25420

2011 27695

2012 28133

2013 26185

Any evidence of licensed firearms holders being singled out by burglars?

Plus - how many crimes have been committed with licensed assault rifle lookalikes and licensed handguns since 2004 (when they became available again after a break since 1972)?

bpb101

Strider wrote: »

It's just the way the data was formatted.

I've used Datawrapper before myself and it adds .00 on to the end of numbers by default.

They dont try hard to remove it though . Its all just spin.

Kinda pissed they gave out that email , You have all the nut bags writing in

Grizzly 45

This is the kind of stuff that we have to get well out into the open and into our TDs politicans and members of this comittee..It is not us or the guns,that is the jingly bauble being held up to distract the comittee and the public.All the nasty assault rifles and handguns are what you must concentrate on..Dont look at our incompetance,in district court cases ,massaged crime figures,dodgy cheif superintendants under criminal investigation and poorly qualified ballistic experts,also under GSOC investigation.

As wel l as the minor fact AGS /DOJ owes us STILL about 4.5 million euros [ estimate ] of tax payers monies for the high court bills that is still being held up in the court taxing masters office,and 30 grand down in Limerick DC for those six cases too.[A cheque made out to cash would be grand thanks.] Plus the bill will be a lot higher than that once eveyrone starts taking court cases for compensation for their shotguns and CF stuff..Irrespective of their "legal advice" which BTW is utter rubbish under EU law and Irish law that none is due.
Now how do we get this info into the public eye that there already is ANOTHER bill due to State incompetance ,courtsey of a force that has had an annus horrilibusin 2014 in the public eye and intends to continue in 2015?

yubabill1

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

This is the kind of stuff that we have to get well out into the open and into our TDs politicans and members of this comittee..It is not us or the guns,that is the jingly bauble being held up to distract the comittee and the public.All the nasty assault rifles and handguns are what you must concentrate on..Dont look at our incompetance,in district court cases ,massaged crime figures,dodgy cheif superintendants under criminal investigation and poorly qualified ballistic experts,also under GSOC investigation.

Would any reasonable impartial observer, with no knowledge about firearms or their licensing conclude after the hundreds of court cases and the statement by AGS representative at the justice committee on firearms licensing that public safety was the major concern of AGS in said cases, that AGS did not have a policy in the licensing of certain firearms?

I'm pretty sure they are not allowed to have an extra vires policy?

BattleCorp

yubabill1 wrote: »

Would any reasonable impartial observer, with no knowledge about firearms or their licensing conclude after the hundreds of court cases and the statement by AGS representative at the justice committee on firearms licensing that public safety was the major concern of AGS in said cases, that AGS did not have a policy in the licensing of certain firearms?

The problem is that the committee didn't appear to resemble anything close to being reasonable and impartial observers.

Cass

@Yubabill1 - Yes.

Someone with no knowledge would see these as positive steps. So a person or persons with no knowledge of the current firearms licensing procedure, no knowledge of the court cases, reading the articles like the one this thread is about, and after listening to the review committee and their use of certain words would think "they are out to stop the gun nuts and protect us".

Also you have those that simply don't like guns, because they're guns. No other reason. They don't see a need for them, use for them, and don't like the idea that a catapult might be licensed. It's the reason AGS/DoJ use certain hype words. If the argument has no basis/substance then baffle them with bullsh*t, and make it sound like armed groups are roaming the streets with AK's.

clivej

news@irishmirror.ie

Dear Sirs,

You protrayed gun owership in Ireland very badly in the article you ran in the Irish Mirror.

Pretty shabby reporting by the Irish Daily Mirror. Why didn't they report the numerous court cases lost by AGS and the underhanded tactics they used. Altering court paperwork, purging themselves in court.
Does those statistics include those firearms stolen from members of AGS. Or how all this has come about as revenge for showing in the courts that we as shooters complied to the law where as they tried to make their own rules and ignore the courts.
Pity the Irish Daily Mirror don't report on the success of Irish shooting teams and their success on the international stage, world champions, numerous European medals, all done at a personal cost to themselves.


Pity you didn't ask or get in contact with any of the shooting organisations before running that story like the NASRPC.


Yours

Clive J.....




Their reply...........


No we didn't report it badly, we reported facts.
Newspapers are always criticised for allegedly failing to address facts.
When we do, we are still criticised. These are official figures and are of
important public interest.

I assume you want to deal with facts as well. Can you show us some evidence of how people have altered court paperwork or purged themselves in court, as you claim?


News editor.

aaakev

Have you sent him a reply clive?

yubabill1

Cass wrote: »

@Yubabill1 - Yes.

Someone with no knowledge would see these as positive steps. So a person or persons with no knowledge of the current firearms licensing procedure, no knowledge of the court cases, reading the articles like the one this thread is about, and after listening to the review committee and their use of certain words would think "they are out to stop the gun nuts and protect us".

Also you have those that simply don't like guns, because they're guns. No other reason. They don't see a need for them, use for them, and don't like the idea that a catapult might be licensed. It's the reason AGS/DoJ use certain hype words. If the argument has no basis/substance then baffle them with bullsh*t, and make it sound like armed groups are roaming the streets with AK's.

I was thinking of someone with an open mind - a rare breed.

yubabill1

To Daily Mirror RE: 1 in 20 owns a firearm

Sir/Madam



I have read an email you sent to an associate who complained about inaccuracies in the above article, whereupon you claim to deal only in “facts”



“No we didn't report it badly, we reported facts.
Newspapers are always criticised for allegedly failing to address facts.
When we do, we are still criticised. These are official figures and are of
important public interest.

I assume you want to deal with facts as well. Can you show us some evidence of how people have altered court paperwork or purged themselves in court, as you claim?”

Please inform yourself of the meaning of the term “firearm” under Irish legislation – you may find it includes starter pistols, flare guns, humane killers and the like, which make up over 80 of the 355 stolen in 2013;

You may also find it useful to know that “lost” firearms include those lost in house fires, from water craft, damaged beyond repair in various common ways and not just cases misplacement.

If you are going to deal in facts, please stay away from statistics – you say one in 20 own a firearm, but what if many firearms licence holders own more than one firearm, as many do? I don’t think that even the Garda Press Office would approve of stretching the truth in this extreme manner.

As a newspaper reporting

“official figures .....of
important public interest”

I contend that you have a duty of care to report this information in a responsible, inclusive, tolerant and ACCURATE manner.

Yours............

Cass

So a Christmas miracle ...................


Seriously though, people are broken into 6 categories:

1. Those with firearms that know what is going on and care enough to act.
2. Those with firearms that don't know what is going on. (There are still a frightening number who are unaware/oblivious to these issues)
3. Those with firearms that don't care. No matter the outcome they simply don't care/mind.
4. Those without firearms that are completely anti gun and no matter what rational points you put across, they won't want to know them.
5. Those without firearms that don't care either way
6. Those without firearms that will listen to reasoned debate and then make a decision

In our time of Facebook, Twitter, instagram, and all other forms of social media, it has transformed people from quiet, reserved, and private people to keyboard warriors that will actively have an opinion on everything from guns to world economics and everything in between. They believe they are expertly suited to comment on these topics, have all the answers, and 99% of the time they will follow the herd mentality to avoid being singled out as having a truly original or independent thought.

We have an uphill battle, and always will. Mob rule still wins, and we are not the biggest mob.

Chiparus

clivej wrote: »

news@irishmirror.ie



Their reply...........


No we didn't report it badly, we reported facts.
Newspapers are always criticised for allegedly failing to address facts.
When we do, we are still criticised. These are official figures and are of
important public interest.

I assume you want to deal with facts as well. Can you show us some evidence of how people have altered court paperwork or purged themselves in court, as you claim?


News editor.

Perhaps you might ask them did they verify their "facts" or are they relying "facts" from an organization that has been found to alter their "facts" so much that the Central Statistics Office don't believe them.

bpb101

One thing that they go on and on about is that Ireland has gone gun crazy with 11% increase in firearms.

I welcome the increase

Firearms owners have increased an extra €1,800,000 into the gardai budget for the next 3 year. Thats ennough to fund over 150 rural Gardi stations (1.8million /(3000*3)) - (http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/not-one-of-95-garda-stations-shut-down-last-year-has-been-sold-30077299.html)
22,000 extra firearms have allowed new businesses that create employment in a very difficult time.As well as keeping struggling business survive . Without this increase, some rfd may have went out of businesses and their staff and themselves on the social welfare (costing the state money)


Firearms owners have invested a further €15,000,000+ into local economy.

congrats to all those that bought an extra gun this year:)

clivej

Chiparus wrote: »

Perhaps you might ask them did they verify their "facts" or are they relying "facts" from an organization that has been found to alter their "facts" so much that the Central Statistics Office don't believe them.

And would you not E-mail the Irish Mirror?? Bliz them with facts:D

Chiparus

clivej wrote: »

And would you not E-mail the Irish Mirror?? Bliz them with facts:D

Will do.

Sparks

clivej wrote: »

news@irishmirror.ie

Yeah, was talking to the person who wrote the report on twitter yesterday. Their reply was pretty much the same as what you got, and then radio silence.

‏@Sparks
BTW, more than just the one problem with the Mirror of late: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=93526602&postcount=4 …

Ailbhe Jordan @amjordo Dec 21
some people may not like the facts in this article but they are correct

@Sparks Dec 21
@amjordo @IrishMirror No, they're really not. eg. "Dramatic rise of 11%" - but 20,000 *fewer* licenced firearms.

@amjordo @IrishMirror eg. "1 in 20 owns a firearm" - not only wrong, but _nobody_ knows the actual number.

@amjordo @IrishMirror And that's just the math, not the stupid stuff like licenced "lethal weapons ownership".

@amjordo @IrishMirror (Seriously, the Gardai do not give out licences for weapons...)

Ailbhe Jordan @amjordo Dec 21
@Sparks @IrishMirror 11 % increase on last year, figures before that refer to a three year period 2009-2012

@Sparks Dec 21
@amjordo @IrishMirror In other words, we had 220,000 before 2008, now we have less than 200,000 but that's a rise.

@amjordo @IrishMirror Also - 1 in 20 have licences? The Gardai don't have that data, so where did you get it?

@amjordo @IrishMirror Was someone not factchecking the data for that article in order to make a deadline I wonder?

Became fairly obvious they were backpedalling away from what was presumably supposed to be an uncontentious fluff piece run to spin up advertising.


On the other hand, it's the Mirror, so you can pretty much say that about everything they run

killintime

they will write what they tink ppl want to hear not what is realy going on

Cass

If it's me replying to ANYONE i follow these rules:

• Write as though everyone, and i mean everyone can read it. So word it carefully and properly.
• NEVER ask anything i don't already know the answer to.
• Stick to proven/printed facts.
• Avoid speculation, rumor, assumption or anything i cannot back up with facts, surveys, stats, etc.
• Avoid using overly harsh description of the article in terms off derogatory comments. You insult the profession, you insult them and close them off to your points. Much like our "Attack the post, not the poster" rule here.
• Counter all points they have made one by one.
• Attack the source of their information. So show the flaws in AGS stats, the fact the CSO no longer supporting the figures they give, the fact that when asked by the review committee/parliamentary questions they cannot provide these figures/facts, etc.
• Avoid topics i don't know about. So if asked i don't have to bullsh*t or "mumble" my way through it.
• Avoid any reference to mass shootings/murders because they do not relate to my sport. When asked, and i was in one letter i got a response to, i simply said (paraphrasing here) "As those tragic events did not happen in the state, have never occurred in the state, have no bearing on sports shooting in Ireland, were carried out by people with mental defects/personality issues that had access to firearms not readily available here i will not insult the families affected by discussing the incident".

Everyone will have their own way, and i'm not advocating using the above ONLY. You need to insert your own personality into your writings. However some of the points above i believe are vital. Especially the ones surrounding the facts. They (AGS, etc) embarrass themselves by using SWAG science (Scientific Wild Ass Guess), and we should be better, not only for moral reasons, but it's easy to remember the truth, and not so much a lie or guess.