Ensuring that you are not given a Catholic Funeral?

Spirogyra

Hi just wondering how I could best prevent this? I'm not ill, but one never knows what could happen, suddenly or not, and well I really don't want a Catholic Funeral. I've no spouse who would ensure my wishes were enacted. Any thoughts appreciated?
Kind regards
Sarah

katydid

Spirogyra wrote: »

Hi just wondering how I could best prevent this? I'm not ill, but one never knows what could happen, suddenly or not, and well I really don't want a Catholic Funeral. I've no spouse who would ensure my wishes were enacted. Any thoughts appreciated?
Kind regards
Sarah

I presume you could go to a solicitor and make your wishes known to her/him. As your representative, I presume they would be in a position to step in and make sure your wishes are carried out.

Or, and I know this sounds a bit morbid, but maybe speak to an undertaker...

a person.

You need to leave clear instructions with your next of kin, or find a way of getting instructions to them via your legal reps as soon as you die, as when no other arrangements have been detailed, the next of kin are usually the ones that are left with the job of organising the burial. It's often a very rushed affair, as next of kin really only have a day or so to book and organise everthing when a person dies, so there's no point in them finding out what your last wishes were a week later.

Peregrinus

The people who have both the legal right and the legal responsibility to arrange your funeral are your next-of-kin. Whether or not you get a Catholic funeral or any other particular kind of funeral is, in the end, something they control. If you have no spouse (and no children) then your next of kin will be your parents, if they survive you, and your brothers and sisters, if your parents do not survive you. So speak to them, make sure they understand your wishes in this regard, and make sure they understand how important this is to you.

If you fear that they will disregard your wishes and give you a funeral which is not the funeral you want - and I hope very much you don't find yourself in that position - there are a few steps you can consider, but be aware that none of them is absolutely guaranteed to work. Probably the most effective thing you can do is make a will leaving stuff to your next-of-kin (or to their children), but only on condition that your funeral wishes are respected, with an alternative bequest to the Cats and Dogs Home (or whoever) if your wishes are disregarded. If you go down this road you need to make sure, of course, that your next-of-kin are aware of what's in your will; when you actually die your will normally isn't read until after the funeral, so if they only find out then it will be too late.

But in the end, you have to accept that this is out of your control. Your funeral is how other people deal with your death. If, when you're still alive, you can't stop other people praying for you, how are you going to stop them praying for you after your death, or dictate in what ways they may or may not pray for you? So maybe the take-away lesson here is to learn to let go. Do what you can to ensure that your family know what you want, and how much importance you attach to it, trust that they will respect your wishes, and let go of your fears that they won't. This is outside your control- that's the nature of death, really - but you shouldn't stress about the fact that it's outside your control.

braddun

you could donate your body to science


when your dead your dead,it will not matter to you how your buried,


you could buy burial insurance,which you prepay for your burial,and tell them your wishs

Spirogyra

What alternatives is there to a catholic funeral? I mean they control graveyards don't they? I've been a member of the Humanist Association of Ireland, not any more,but maybe I could rejoin and leave strict instructions, with family and friends that they be contacted? My grudge against the Catholic Church is extremely large, I'm not sure that they'd respect my wishes , actually I think they would not, It's important that life does not end in a staged Catholic construction, a church I despise and a church which does not respect me. Does anyone know who does provide funeral insurance here? thanks

Peregrinus

Spirogyra wrote: »

What alternatives is there to a catholic funeral?

A funeral in any other religious tradition, or a non-religious funeral. If you think you (or your family) will need support in organising and conducting a non-religious funeral, you could talk to the Humanist Association of Ireland. They don't just do weddings!

Or, of course, you have the alternative of no funeral at all. There is no legal requirement to have a funeral. You can be buried or cremated without a service, religious or non-religious, of any kind. Any undertaker will arrange this.

Spirogyra wrote: »

I mean they control graveyards don't they?

No, they don't, not at all. Glasnevin Cemetery, for instance, is run by the Glasnevin Trust, a non-denominational not-for-profit body whose mission is to bury people of all religions and none. Deansgrange is run by Dun Laoghaire - Rathdown County Council; they also run Shanganagh cemetery. Mount Jerome Cemetery was originally for Protestants only, but has been open to all since the 1920s; it's run by the General Cemetery Company of Dublin Limited. Fingal County Council runs 36 cemeteries in the North County, including St. Fintan's, Fingal and Balgriffin. In Cork, the Corporation runs St Finbarre's.

Some smaller graveyards may be run by Catholic bodies though, off the top of my head, I can't think of any. And SFAIK even the Catholic-run ones accept all comers, and don't require a Catholic funeral, or any funeral at all, as a condition of being buried there.

Spirogyra wrote: »

I've been a member of the Humanist Association of Ireland, not any more,but maybe I could rejoin and leave strict instructions, with family and friends that they be contacted?

You don't have to be a member in order to avail of the HAI services in respect of funerals (or anything else). But certainly you could contact them to discuss what's available, what they offer, etc. And you could make sure that your family are aware that, when the time comes, the HAI is a resource they can turn to.

Spirogyra wrote: »

My grudge against the Catholic Church is extremely large, I'm not sure that they'd respect my wishes , actually I think they would not, It's important that life does not end in a staged Catholic construction, a church I despise and a church which does not respect me.

I don't think the question of whether the Catholic church would respect your wishes even arises unless, when you die, your next of kin contact the Catholic church to arrange a funeral for you. The people you need to get on side here is not the church; it's your family. Everyone will assume that your family are best-placed to know what you would have wanted and what kind of funeral would be appropriate; nobody will try to second-guess them on this. You need to talk to them about this; make sure they know what you want and how strongly you feel about this. You cannot rely on anyone else to do this for you after you are dead.

If your family do try to arrange a Catholic funeral for you, it is highly unlikely that the Catholic church will turn them away unless you are, e.g., an unrepentant Nazi war criminal. And I presume you're not willing to go that far.

Spirogyra wrote: »

Does anyone know who does provide funeral insurance here? thanks

Most undertakers can arrange funeral insurance. Be aware that it's often not terribly good value, so look carefully at any policy you are offered and consider the alternative of simply saving the amount of the premium in a bank or post office account. That may turn out to be a better option.

Dan_Solo

braddun wrote: »

when your dead your dead,it will not matter to you how your buried,

Well this is it. If you are an atheist you really shouldn't worry I'd have thought? TBH if it makes my friends and relatives more comfortable to have a Catholic funeral I'm all for it, despite it being a load of nonsense.

lazybones32

Have you a will made? If not, have a note in your handwriting stating your final wishes, etc.

It's a good idea to chat with your solicitor and actually get one written up and it can be amended as your mind changes. Also, have a chat with your doctor: I spoke with mine and told her that in the event of me not being able to make a decision, she has the power to choose for me, based on my quality of life.

And I'm technically 'too young to be thinking about that...'

nosietoes

I used to worry loads of this and then like Dan Solo I came to realise that funerals are about those we leave behind. Yes, I would rather not have a grave, or a religious funeral but you know what - I won't know the difference. That's the beauty of atheism. They can do whatever they want to do with my corpse once I'm dead... and I think that a religious funeral will probably be my destiny, depending on who is left. I just hope they have a good gathering and spend time laughing and crying over stuff we did together.

Morgase

I've made a will and I've included a page in the document stating my wishes in terms of a funeral service. Obviously it's not legally binding, but nobody can say "oh we'll just assume she wanted a Catholic burial". It's there in black and white. I'm hoping to discuss this with the family when we meet up over the Christmas period (little ray of sunshine that I am!).

I know that my parents would probably just do the usual Catholic burial, and I won't be there to be upset about it. However, it would just seem like such a sham to my partner, my friends and other relatives who know how I felt about religion, and the Catholic Church specifically.

The funeral service isn't just for the absolute next-of-kin (currently my parents) - it's about letting everyone else say goodbye too. I can't imagine my partner sitting there being comfortable with what would be making a mockery out of my death.

lazygal

I wouldn't put funeral wishes in a will. They're usually executed long after the funeral is over. All you can really do is have yourself excommunicated and communicate your wishes to your next of kin.

dharma200

lazygal wrote: »

I wouldn't put funeral wishes in a will. They're usually executed long after the funeral is over. All you can really do is have yourself excommunicated and communicate your wishes to your next of kin.

It is not possible to become excommunicated from the catholic church

lazygal

dharma200 wrote: »

It is not possible to become excommunicated from the catholic church

It is, for apostasy.

katydid

dharma200 wrote: »

It is not possible to become excommunicated from the catholic church

Well, you can be excommunicated but you would still remain a member, whether you like it or not.

Peregrinus

It is entirely possible to leave the Catholic church, and it is not necessary to have yourself excommunicated to do so.

However in the present context it's irrelevant; you don't have to be a Catholic to have a Catholic funeral, so leaving the church does not ensure that you won't have one.

This comes back to basic common sense. The poeple who will organise your funeral are your immediate family. If this matters to you, talk to them and make sure they understand what you want, and how important it is to you. If you have them on side, you have no problem. If you can't get them onside, it's unrealistic to think that anyone else will be able to do so, or will be either willing or able to persuade your family to do something that you couldn't persuade them to do. So talk to them.

katydid

Peregrinus wrote: »

It is entirely possible to leave the Catholic church, and it is not necessary to have yourself excommunicated to do so..

As far as I know, it's not easy to leave the Roman Catholic church. There was a movement out there a few years ago which was promoting writing to the parish where you were baptised and stating your wish to formally leave. If I remember, the RC church at the time stated that this was not a formal method and that it wouldn't guarantee your name "being taken off the books", so to speak.

One can leave in the sense of stopping going to mass and perhaps joining another denomination, but there seems to be no formal mechanism for officially leaving.

mossie11

This is one way of getting out:
1370: A person who uses physical force against the Roman Pontiff incurs a latae sententiae excommunication reserved to the Apostolic See.
So kick the Pope.

actuallylike

I don't buy into the idea that your funeral is for others so it should be how they want it. It should be recognition of you and your beliefs. If I supported Everton and my family supported Liverpool, I wouldn't be happy in the thought that they would be draping a Liverpool flag on my coffin, just because it makes them feel better. It would be an insult to my beliefs. At my funeral, I want only my friends and family to do the talking and no spiritual answers as to why I'm dead. Who knows, it might show some of my spiritual friends and family that a funeral void of religion can actually be a warm celebration of life.

eviltwin

Totally agree with Actuallylike, if it was the other way around, if a Catholic died and their family decided to give them a non religious funeral, would people be so quick to say "ah sure they are dead anyway"

Its very important to me not to have any kind of religious content in my funeral. I'm very vocal about that so everyone who needs to know knows. If they went ahead and did it anyway I'd be quite hurt to think that in their last ever act on my behalf they do what they feel they want rather than follow my wishes.

However you have to be realistic, if someone isn't up to speed on options its a but much to expect a grieving family member to suss out what kind of non religious service they can have and do all that leg work. The onus is on you to let your family know who to contact. I've written down a few websites and numbers that I've left with a trusted friend in the event that I die suddenly so they know what to do. Hopefully by the time I die it will be fairly normal to have a non church burial.

Absolam

I feel like we've been here before......

Willfarman

Does it matter a fup to you when your dead? Is it not right for your next of kin to dispose of your mortal remains anyway that gives them some solace and comfort?

RainyDay

mossie11 wrote: »

This is one way of getting out:
1370: A person who uses physical force against the Roman Pontiff incurs a latae sententiae excommunication reserved to the Apostolic See.
So kick the Pope.

Would this work?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uaglEdB7CDs

Peregrinus

mossie11 wrote: »

This is one way of getting out:
1370: A person who uses physical force against the Roman Pontiff incurs a latae sententiae excommunication reserved to the Apostolic See.
So kick the Pope.

While it is possible to leave the Catholic church, being excommunicated is not the way to do it. Excommunication is a canonical penalty imposed for various breaches of the rules, but it doesn't make you not Catholic any more any more than being fined for speeding or sent to prison for murder makes you not Irish any more. An excommunicated Catholic is still a Catholic - just a Catholic who is for the time being subject to the penalty of excommunication.

katydid

Peregrinus wrote: »

While it is possible to leave the Catholic church, being excommunicated is not the way to do it. Excommunication is a canonical penalty imposed for various breaches of the rules, but it doesn't make you not Catholic any more any more than being fined for speeding or sent to prison for murder makes you not Irish any more. An excommunicated Catholic is still a Catholic - just a Catholic who is for the time being subject to the penalty of excommunication.

So how, exactly, is it possible to leave the RC church? I don't mean to disconnect oneself, but to have one's leaving recognised and recorded officially?

Absolam

It got fairly discussed to death here, but really it depends on whether your question is 'is it possible to leave the Catholic Church', or is it 'is it possible to force the Catholic Church to make a public statement acknowledging your non membership'. To which the really short answers are respectively yes and no.

PopePalpatine

Willfarman wrote: »

Does it matter a fup to you when your dead? Is it not right for your next of kin to dispose of your mortal remains anyway that gives them some solace and comfort?

Would you say the same thing to a Catholic whose next of kin aren't Catholics?

katydid

Absolam wrote: »

It got fairly discussed to death here, but really it depends on whether your question is 'is it possible to leave the Catholic Church', or is it 'is it possible to force the Catholic Church to make a public statement acknowledging your non membership'. To which the really short answers are respectively yes and no.

Thanks. I'll check out that thread.

As you say, you can't force the RCC to acknowledge this fact; it's rather dishonest of them to refuse to do a realistic "head-count", and continue to pretend that membership is other than what it is. Oh well, not the subject of this thread...

Willfarman

PopePalpatine wrote: »

Would you say the same thing to a Catholic whose next of kin aren't Catholics?

I would.

Spirogyra

Willfarman wrote: »

Does it matter a fup to you when your dead? Is it not right for your next of kin to dispose of your mortal remains anyway that gives them some solace and comfort?

I don't accept this is at all, it's about the person themselves, me, what I believe in, what I stand for, and I'm one of the groups that the Catholic Church deems 'intrinscially disordered',I don't believe that a true reflection of my life, a final curtain, could or should really come down in a Catholic Church.

I had thought of joining a different denomination, I do have connections with the COI, but I'm not really a believer in the God becoming man thing so probably not a great idea.....

Absolam

katydid wrote: »

As you say, you can't force the RCC to acknowledge this fact; it's rather dishonest of them to refuse to do a realistic "head-count", and continue to pretend that membership is other than what it is. Oh well, not the subject of this thread...

I can't imagine how it's dishonest really... They're not, as far as I know, using any mechanism to count people 'in' that would be altered if they were obligated to publish a list of people who decided they were 'out'?

Willfarman

I will pray to Mary and light a candle for ye lads..

Mark Hamill

Absolam wrote: »

I can't imagine how it's dishonest really... They're not, as far as I know, using any mechanism to count people 'in' that would be altered if they were obligated to publish a list of people who decided they were 'out'?

Seeing as they specifically made it impossible for people to get out by closing the "count-me-out" loophole (and therefore impossible for them to count those who do want out), that makes your assertion here full of crap.

Absolam

Mark Hamill wrote: »

Seeing as they specifically made it impossible for people to get out by closing the "count-me-out" loophole (and therefore impossible for them to count those who do want out), that makes your assertion here full of crap.

That's strong language indeed! Is there a specific assertion that has ignited your ire? Other than membership is not an intrinsically continuous state, that is :-)

rubberdungeon

Have a look at www.thinkahead.ie

Rubberchikken

I have organised for my body to be donated to science and when they're finished to be cremated.
If that doesnt pan out, then just cremation and whoever wishes can do with the ashes as they like.
No prayers, no nothing.
My family know and its written out. I like organisation;)

Dan_Solo

actuallylike wrote: »

I don't buy into the idea that your funeral is for others so it should be how they want it.

As an atheist, how can you possibly believe your funeral is for you when you don't exist? What's "for"?

recedite

Nobody likes to think they will be "misrepresented" when they are not there themselves to put the record straight. Whether it is other people talking about them while they are still alive, or whether it concerns a persons funeral arrangements.

Although I agree a funeral is really for the benefit of the living, that doesn't mean it should be organised according to the religious beliefs of those people doing the organising. They can still say whatever prayers they want (to themselves) at a secular funeral without forcing everyone else who is attending to join in.

Supposing a religious person was buried according to the funeral rites of another religion (ie the "wrong" religion) Its much the same situation as with the atheist, because the mistake should not really affect how things go in the afterlife. Unless they belonged to one of those old pagan religions that requires you to be buried with your chariot, slaves, and a few snacks. Then the correct funeral rites are necessary to ensure a really good start in the next life.
Other than that, its the same situation; ie the living not wanting to be misrepresented after their death.

Dan_Solo

recedite wrote: »

Nobody likes to think they will be "misrepresented" when they are not there themselves to put the record straight. Whether it is other people talking about them while they are still alive, or whether it concerns a persons funeral arrangements.

No actually. If you're an atheist you have accepted you will not be there in any way shape or form to be upset by it. Even knowing you'll get a Christian burial shouldn't bother you now.

Dacelonid

I've always thought that the funeral isn't for the deceased anyway. What difference would it make to me whether I am cremated, buried, buried at sea, left on a mountain top for the eagles, donated to science or whatever. All of that palaver is for the mourners. If my next of kin get more closure from burying me than they do from cremating me, so be it.
I had this discussion with my wife, she wants to be cremated after going to her brothers cremation. She liked it, but I didn't particularly care for it. She said she wanted to be cremated and I said no, that I would bury her as I would like a grave to visit. Conversely I told her that I didn't particularly like the whole cremation ceremony, but if that is what she wanted to do with my body then so be it

Mark Hamill

Absolam wrote: »

That's strong language indeed! Is there a specific assertion that has ignited your ire? Other than membership is not an intrinsically continuous state, that is :-)

In you efforts to derail threads you do come out with some spectacular crap sometimes. Membership is not an intrinsically continuous state? That would mean it is a instantaneous state which would mean that moment you do anything other than constantly declare yourself a member you lose that membership.
Go troll somewhere else.

stinkle

A funeral can indeed help those left behind to grieve, but surely one of the best ways to come to terms with a death is to honour the deceased's wishes?

An elderly relative of mine lived in one part of the country and always wanted to be buried with her parents and sister in a different county (decent drive away). She use to joke that she'd give us a good day out when her time came, as she wanted the funeral ceremony in the town she had lived all her life, then burial with the family. There was a fair bit of extra organisation to do this apparently, but no one would have dreamed of doing it differently. When the time came it gave us all a lot of comfort to honour these final wishes. From my atheist perspective she was returned to the same physical place as those who passed before her and the grave is now closed. That helped us all, regardless of all our beliefs.

Mark Hamill

Dan_Solo wrote: »

As an atheist, how can you possibly believe your funeral is for you when you don't exist? What's "for"?

My funeral wont be for me, but it is supposed to be about me. If it doesn't represent me then the only people who will get something out of it are those who make it about them.

katydid

Absolam wrote: »

I can't imagine how it's dishonest really... They're not, as far as I know, using any mechanism to count people 'in' that would be altered if they were obligated to publish a list of people who decided they were 'out'?

They have lists of members, based on formal entry procedures such as baptism/confirmation records, and they are operating under false assumptions on their numbers. They refuse to instigate a system which would show a true picture of their membership.

recedite

Dan_Solo wrote: »

No actually. If you're an atheist you have accepted you will not be there in any way shape or form to be upset by it. Even knowing you'll get a Christian burial shouldn't bother you now.

I agree with the first part of what you say; I'll be dead so I won't care then.
I don't agree with the second part; that it should not bother me while I'm still alive.
Do you mind if other people are talking about you behind your back, misrepresenting you? By your logic, if you can't hear what they are saying, it shouldn't bother you. And yet it does.

Absolam

Mark Hamill wrote: »

In you efforts to derail threads you do come out with some spectacular crap sometimes. Membership is not an intrinsically continuous state? That would mean it is a instantaneous state which would mean that moment you do anything other than constantly declare yourself a member you lose that membership.
Go troll somewhere else.

Aw gosh... Crap and troll? The fact you need to add those shows how much you think of your own assertion
But for the sake of the laugh... The fact that something isn't intrinsically continuous doesn't mean it must be instantaneous, or that being instantaneous would require constant declaration. I haven't told you whether I'm a member of a golf club today. I can tell you my membership isn't intrinsically continuous, nor is it instantaneous, nor am I constantly declaring it.

Dan_Solo

recedite wrote: »

Do you mind if other people are talking about you behind your back, misrepresenting you? By your logic, if you can't hear what they are saying, it shouldn't bother you. And yet it does.

If it makes no difference whatsoever to my life... nope, not bothered. Why would I be? A Catholic burial makes no difference to my life.

NIMAN

I find this whole idea slightly strange,

OK so if you are an atheist, you wonder why all these folk are headin to Churches and getting Catholic funerals when they die, as you believe its all nonsense and there is no God, and that we are all just matter and will rot when we die, cease to exist.

Why then would you be so worried about your dead corpse getting buried in a certain way. Surely thats worrying about something that has zero relevance to anything anymore? No?

Are you worried that people will talk about you and your Catholic funeral you had when you're long gone?

Absolam

katydid wrote: »

They have lists of members, based on formal entry procedures such as baptism/confirmation records, and they are operating under false assumptions on their numbers. They refuse to instigate a system which would show a true picture of their membership.

Can you demonstrate that any of that is true though? For instance, where is the list of members? I'm aware parishes keep records of baptisms, and of confirmations, but I don't know of any that keep membership lists. If there are any, does anyone collate them, or are they discreet lists? There's obviously a fairly significant difference between the RCC having a list of members, and hundreds of thousands of parishes ( or even tens of thousands of dioceses) having their own individual records of events such as baptisms/communions/confirmations/marriages/funerals.

If no one is collating a list of members, they can't be using such a list to operate under a false assumption of numbers. If someone is, what operations do they use that assumption for?

Finally, why should they instigate a system that shows a true picture of their membership? If they don't feel they need it now, what use will it be to them?

katydid

Absolam wrote: »

Can you demonstrate that any of that is true though? For instance, where is the list of members? I'm aware parishes keep records of baptisms, and of confirmations, but I don't know of any that keep membership lists. If there are any, does anyone collate them, or are they discreet lists?

If no one is collating a list of members, they can't be using such a list to operate under a false assumption of numbers. If someone is, what operations do they use that assumption for?

Finally, why should they instigate a system that shows a true picture of their membership? If they don't feel they need it now, what use will it be to them?

Parish registers ARE membership lists. Baptism lists can't be membership lists, as they are a list of decisions made on behalf of an infant. But the register of confirmations (whoever keeps those; I presume the diocese) is the list of those who have confirmed their membership as adults (at the age of twelve...) All they need to do is collate these lists and they have the supposed membership.

Whether they do or not is immaterial. The point is that people are registered officially as members of an organisation, and there is no way of de-registering them. It's a simple, factual point.

Why they should allow people a de-registration method is just simple human decency. Even if people make a free choice to become members, which you can't really say when talking about twelve year olds, it's only fair they should also have a choice to make their decision not to be members anymore.

That's all. Just fairness.

No need to make a song and dance over it.

recedite

Dan_Solo wrote: »

If it makes no difference whatsoever to my life... nope, not bothered. Why would I be? A Catholic burial makes no difference to my life.

How about a Mussolini funeral? The poor guy was hung upside down from a lamp post for people to spit at. But he was already dead, so it made absolutely no difference to him.
So are you saying you would not be bothered (in life) if something like that might happen to your corpse due to some crazy mistake, even if all you had to do to avoid it, was to pre-arrange your own funeral?