Speeding fine - Query

Larry Wildman

I just got a fixed charge offence notice in the post.

The alleged offence took place in September - 160kph in a 120kph zone.

The Garda was in an unmarked car and stopped me. He asked me whether it was my car and asked to see my licence. He asked me whether the car was registered at the address on my licence. He then said "it's a nice car, hard to hold back and to take it easy". He never said that I was getting a ticket.

Is that "allowable"? He has no evidence of the offence (picture, speed gun reading, etc) and he implied that he was letting me off.

I have two points already.

Thank you.

joe912

No once he said "nice car" that fine is null and void. If he persists take it all the way to the supreme court not only will you get off you will probably get enough compo to buy a second nice car.

cnoc

joe912 wrote: »

No once he said "nice car" that fine is null and void. If he persists take it all the way to the supreme court not only will you get off you will probably get enough compo to buy a second nice car.

How can the OP prove he said "nice car"?

MarkR

Lies. Would have said vehi-cul.

corktina

ah come on...did you really expect to get away with doing 160 km/h.?

Kristopherus

joe912 wrote: »

No once he said "nice car" that fine is null and void. If he persists take it all the way to the supreme court not only will you get off you will probably get enough compo to buy a second nice car.

You forgot to add the sarky smilie .

OP, pay up. You have'nt a hope of getting off.

Larry Wildman

I think that I was doing around 140

Larry Wildman

Does a Garda need objective evidence and does he have to tell you that he's gonna do you? Does implying you're being let off contaminate things?

And do four penalty point cause much trouble for me?

moleyv

its three points now.

corktina

his word against yours, the Judge would err on his side. (will be three points extra now wont it?)

Larry Wildman

Hmmm...great. Is five "bad"?

Pretty disingenuous of him to imply that I'm in the clear and then go out of his way to issue a ticket.

He was Special Branch and more concerned (seemingly) about the car and where I was going.

godtabh

Larry Wildman wrote: »

Pretty disingenuous of him to imply that I'm in the clear and then go out of his way to issue a ticket.

Could be worse. Could have been done for dangerous driving

Larry Wildman

godtabh wrote: »

Could be worse. Could have been done for dangerous driving

At 140 on an empty motorway?

Sounds a little OTT.

corktina

special branch? Really? do we even have one? Would they stop anyone for speeding? hard to beleive

roroliam

140 or 160, It's always a wide empty straight dry road.

Larry Wildman

corktina wrote: »

special branch? Really? do we even have one? Would they stop anyone for speeding? hard to beleive

Unmarked car.

Plain clothes guy.

Bullet proof vest type thing for sure and badge around neck I think.

slimjimmc

Larry Wildman wrote: »

I just got a fixed charge offence notice in the post.

The alleged offence took place in September - 160kph in a 120kph zone.

The Garda was in an unmarked car and stopped me. He asked me whether it was my car and asked to see my licence. He asked me whether the car was registered at the address on my licence. He then said "it's a nice car, hard to hold back and to take it easy". He never said that I was getting a ticket.

Is that "allowable"? He has no evidence of the offence (picture, speed gun reading, etc) and he implied that he was letting me off.

I have two points already.

Thank you.

How did he imply he was letting you off. To me "it's a nice car, hard to hold back and to take it easy" is just a sarky way of asking why you couldn't stay within the speed limit and probably a way to get you chatting to ascertain your demeanour.
AFAIK he doesn't have to state you're getting a ticket, the fixed penalty notice is the formal allegation of an offence. As for evidence, he may have been pacing you for a while and used his calibrated Garda speedometer to determine and witness you were travelling well above 120km/h.

Larry Wildman

slimjimmc wrote: »

How did he imply he was letting you off. To me "it's a nice car, hard to hold back and to take it easy" is just a sarky way of asking why you couldn't stay within the speed limit.
AFAIK he doesn't have to state you're getting a ticket, the fixed penalty notice is the formal allegation of an offence. As for evidence, he may have been pacing you for a while and used his calibrated Garda speedometer to determine and witness you were travelling well above 120km/h.

He said "you were travelling at a fair old lick there". He then asked whether it was my car. He also asked where I was going and what I was doing in the area. He asked to see my licence and whether the car is registered at the address on my licence. He then went back to his car for a while. Then he came back, gave me back my licence and said "it's a nice car and probably hard to hold back...just take it handy." He then gave us directions. No mention of a ticket and I was sure that was the end of it.

It was in September...notice arrived today (3 months later).

joe912

Larry Wildman wrote: »

Unmarked car.

Plain clothes guy.

Bullet proof vest type thing for sure and badge around neck I think.

Seriously if I was the gambling type I would take my chances and ignore this, chances are he will be too busy to follow it up and you wont hear anymore about it.
Even if you do get a summons to court if you show up with your solicitor there is a good chance that he will be too busy to show up at court and any good solicitor would get it thrown out.
these guys in the gardai special branch have busy lives. you have to spend a lot of time on the golf course to move up the ranks.

Haithabu

Larry Wildman wrote: »

Does a Garda need objective evidence and does he have to tell you that he's gonna do you? Does implying you're being let off contaminate things

He would need evidence that you were too fast. Obviously it would be nice to tell you but he does not have to. Otherwise anyone being stopped could deny afterwards that the hard message was indeed verbally delivered.

The question would be why did he not tell you. Before admitting to anything I would question the method which was used to measure your speed, the exact result and who measured it. Maybe his car was in motion and he had used a device which is only certified to work when stationary. Maybe the Garda is not certified himself to use the device. Maybe he was not allowed to use the device while driving himself or he lacked a necessary 2nd Garda to be present. That way you could get away with it.

The way you describe it, it is however likely that you were caught by a stationary device and him stopping you was only indirectly linked to the speeding offense. They had you on camera already and the Garda only stopped you to make sure the car was not stolen or that it was indeed you who was driving at the time so you can not later say that you loaned the car to a friend but since you often do that you can not remember after 3 months to which friend exactly you had loaned it on that day or that it was a friend from Australia who has since then moved back.

Glencarraig

Did the Garda officially caution you that a prosecution could be forthcoming, if he didnt then you have no case to answer. Get your solicitor to contact the Garda and make him aware of that point.

corktina

some pretty poor advice coming up now!

Larry Wildman

My sense is that he just judged me to be speeding based on his own speed in his car...even the 160kph is a very round number.

He gave me no impression at all that I would get done. And it was months ago!

thadg

what kind of car were you driving?

if he didn't show the speed on the gun you are sorted

ironclaw

thadg wrote: »

if he didn't show the speed on the gun you are sorted

A Garda does not have to show you how your speed was measured. In fact, even if they did use a Lidar / Radar / Pacing system, they don't have to prove it was on, functional or even calibrated. Thats fact. Its even in statute. A Garda literally just has to say you were speeding, there is no onus for scientific proof in or out of court. Its one of the major problems with the current Road Traffic Acts in my opinion and certainly a case for a DVR if there ever was one.

Haithabu wrote: »

He would need evidence that you were too fast. Obviously it would be nice to tell you but he does not have to. Otherwise anyone being stopped could deny afterwards that the hard message was indeed verbally delivered.

The question would be why did he not tell you. Before admitting to anything I would question the method which was used to measure your speed, the exact result and who measured it. Maybe his car was in motion and he had used a device which is only certified to work when stationary. Maybe the Garda is not certified himself to use the device. Maybe he was not allowed to use the device while driving himself or he lacked a necessary 2nd Garda to be present. That way you could get away with it.

The way you describe it, it is however likely that you were caught by a stationary device and him stopping you was only indirectly linked to the speeding offense. They had you on camera already and the Garda only stopped you to make sure the car was not stolen or that it was indeed you who was driving at the time so you can not later say that you loaned the car to a friend but since you often do that you can not remember after 3 months to which friend exactly you had loaned it on that day or that it was a friend from Australia who has since then moved back.

This is pure and utter nonsense btw. Not a shred of fact here.

slimjimmc

thadg wrote: »

what kind of car were you driving?

if he didn't show the speed on the gun you are sorted

Not necessarily. He may not have used a speed gun and even if he did I doubt he's required to show it to the driver in order to prosecute. He could also use other techniques such as the Garda car's speedometer to measure or deduce speed. This evidence can be accepted unless challenged. It's likely in the absence of a radar gun or ANPR that the unmarked car paced the OP for a bit before pulling him over.
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2004/en/act/pub/0044/sec0015.html#sec15

“(1) The onus of establishing prima facie proof of a constituent of an offence (including the speed at which a person, whether the accused or another person, was driving) under section 47, 52, 53, 55, 91, 92, 93 or 94 of the Principal Act or section 35 of the Act of 1994 may be discharged by tendering evidence from which that constituent can be inferred of measurements or other indications which were given by—
(a) electronic or other apparatus (including a camera) capable of providing a permanent record (including a permanent visual record) and are contained in such a record produced by it, or
(b) electronic or other apparatus (including a radar gun) which is not capable of producing a permanent record.

corktina

I would seriously doubt that if this Gard is Special Branch he would a) waste his time on a speeding ticket and b) turn up at Court . This story doesn't hold water imo

Larry Wildman

thadg wrote: »

what kind of car were you driving?

if he didn't show the speed on the gun you are sorted

Audi S5

Larry Wildman

corktina wrote: »

I would seriously doubt that if this Gard is Special Branch he would a) waste his time on a speeding ticket and b) turn up at Court . This story doesn't hold water imo

Which part?

A major crime tool place that day so we actually thought that he was more interested in checking that we weren't involved in that. Do "regular" Gardai typically drive non squad non Ford cars and wear bullet proof vests?

ironclaw

Larry Wildman wrote: »

Which part?

A major crime tool place that day so we actually thought that he was more interested in checking that we weren't involved in that. Do "regular" Gardai typically drive non squad non Ford cars and wear bullet proof vests?

There are plenty of unmarked Traffic Corp Gardai. Not all plain clothes officers are Special branch. In fact unmarked cars are very common on the Naas Road and in the city center. The vest is a standard issue stab vest, its not bullet proof and I believe its a requirement to wear one when on duty. The fact you were driving an S5 and if the crime committed involved a high powered car, then it might explain why you were pulled.

Sounds crazy, but are you sure its the same incident? Also whenever I have been pulled, I've actually always asked should I expect something in the post because at the end of the conversation if you are going to get it, then you will, so its no harm to actually ask :pac:

TonyStark

Larry Wildman wrote: »

My sense is that he just judged me to be speeding based on his own speed in his car...even the 160kph is a very round number.

He gave me no impression at all that I would get done. And it was months ago!

What is the speed indicated on the notice that you got in the post?

You met a guard who gave you a false sense of security by being respectful to you!
Enjoy the points Mr 100mph

i57dwun4yb1pt8

sounds to me you got captured some other way along that journey ?

thadg

Larry Wildman wrote: »

Audi S5

nice beast. if he didnt mention your exact speed or say explain what he saw you should take your chances

slimjimmc

thadg wrote: »

nice beast. if he didnt mention your exact speed or say explain what he saw you should take your chances

The fact he has already received a FPN for this instance suggests otherwise.

Kristopherus

thadg wrote: »

nice beast. if he didnt mention your exact speed or say explain what he saw you should take your chances

The ticket has issued, so the case is in an automatic system. No pay in 8 weeks will trigger another reminder on the system and a court appearance. The prosecuting Garda will have no further input until a court case. All this ticketing stuff is done in Thurles iirc.

UnknownSpecies

Not the first time I've heard of this happening. He probably said nothing because he thought you might kick up a stink and didn't want to deal with it. You were doing 140+, you don't really have a leg to stand on.

Wossack

was he wearing his hat?

Special Circumstances

Wossack wrote: »

was he wearing his hat?

Classic.
All we need now is someone advising the OP to use the Freeman on the land defence in court.

endacl

Wossack wrote: »

was he wearing his hat?

There may indeed be a loophole under the Garda Siochana Millenery Act, 1962.
I'll look into it.

Edit: added picture of said hat, for clarity. Any old hat won't do.

Larry Wildman

TonyStark wrote: »

What is the speed indicated on the notice that you got in the post?

160kph

There was no mention of a specific speed when I was stopped.

ironclaw

Larry Wildman wrote: »

160kph

There was no mention of a specific speed when I was stopped.

Yeah, unlike the States you don't have a sliding scale based on the speed. You don't have to be told how fast you were going. Its merely exceeding the speed limit. Stateside, and in most European countries, you will be told. And the fine / repercussions are increased with the speed. We actually have it very easy here guys and girls, I wouldn't be complaining too much about 3 points and €80. 15mph over the posted limit in some US States will have you in cuffs. 100mph will most definitely have you in them :pac:

Heavy Pierre

Did he offer to speak to you as Gaeige? If not you might have a way out of it.

whippet

I was pulled over on the N7 a few months back ... I was a fair cop, 149kph.

The guard was driving a 02 battered and dirty Ford Focus hatch, I never suspected a thing when I saw him coming down the slip and I moved over to the overtaking lane as he was entering.

He followed me in the driving lane for a mile or so before putting on the lights.

He was fierce nice about it, actually to the point of asking me the score of the game on the radio, just said that he had me at 149kph and that I should slow down. Had a quick look at the license asked me where I was headed and a quite nice 'have a nice day' .............. almost lured me in to a false sense of security as 3 weeks later the FPN landed in the letterbox.

The guards will be nice on the roadside .. they don't really want confrontation and argument with motorists who will more than likely deny most offences.

100mph in an Audi!
Oh you rightly deserve it

Larry Wildman

Bam Bam Mickey wrote: »

100mph in an Audi!
Oh you rightly deserve it

Is 100mph in a Ford okay? What has the marque got to do with it?

Veloce

Bam Bam Mickey wrote: »

You met a guard who gave you a false sense of security by being respectful to you!
Enjoy the points Mr 100mph

Bam Bam Mickey wrote: »

100mph in an Audi!
Oh you rightly deserve it

You're not really an Audi fan are you Mickey? Or a fan of the metric system?

S5 is a lovely car OP I hope you are enjoying it. I'd say there is no point in contesting the points. Just take them and hopefully you won't accumulate another 3!