Could Ireland handle a 5th pro team?

Yurt2

Given the growth of the game as both a spectator sport and in terms of participation numbers could Ireland sustain a 5th team in the future?

One proposal I'd put forward is dividing the largest province by far in terms of resources and player numbers, that being Leinster in 2.

The team could be based on the old Irish province of Mide:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Meath

- Obviously you couldn't brand them as Meath (GAA and all that) but maybe something like The Druids. -

The team would cover Meath, Westmeath, Longford, Kildare, Louth and Offaly (Roughly the extent of the ancient province) . Leinster would remain branded as is and cover Dublin and the rest of the counties. Dublin remains the powerhouse of the sport in the province so residual Leinster won't be weakened that significantly.

Population growth in Ireland in the next few decades is expected to be concentrated in Leinster so why not capitalize and create a new outfit to grow the game in the commuter counties?

This will probably get shot down as a silly idea, but just trying some blue sky thinking! :P

locum-motion

Yurt! wrote: »

...
This will probably get shot down as a silly idea...

That's the first sensible thing you've said in your whole post.

Yurt! wrote: »

...but just trying some blue sky thinking!

Go back to your "Mgmnt" seminars with that kind of talk. It's not welcome here (Well, not by me, anyway). Jeez, I'm surprised you didn't say "...going forward..."

Celly Smunt

The pool would be way too small and i honestly think ireland is too small for 4 teams as it is.

locum-motion

Your suggested "5th Province" would have comparatively little interest in rugby.

There are 52 'Senior' clubs in Ireland, who play in the 4 divisions of the AIL.

Of the 10 in Div 1A, precisely 0 are in your new province. Mind you, there's none from Connacht either; it's 6x Dublin, 2x Cork, 1x Limerick and 1x Ulster.

Div 1B has 3x Connacht, 3x Ulster, 3x Limerick & 1x Dublin. Still none from your new province.

In 2A, we find 2 (Barnhall, Naas) from the new province. Out of 16. The others are 5x Ulster, 5x Dublin and 4x Munster (1x each Cork/Limerick, 2x Tipp)

2B also has 16 clubs. 3 of them (Boyne, Navan, Tullamore) are in the new province. The remainder is made up of 7x Munster (3xLimerick, 4x Cork) 3x The-Remains-of-Leinster-of-which-only-1-(Greystones)-is-outside-Dublin, 2x Ulster & 1x Connacht.

Using the spread of Senior clubs as a guide to the spread of the interest in rugby, your suggestion wouldn't be sustainable. Connacht and the new province would both be too weak. Whatever about sustaining one weaker province, we couldn't sustain two. You'd be far better off splitting Munster in two (Cork, Waterford & South Tipp vs Limerick, North Tipp, Clare & Kerry)


Taking all divisions together, it's:

• Ulster: 11
• Connacht: 4
• New Province: 5
• Remainder of Leinster:15 (Of which Dublin: 14 The rest:1)
• Munster: 17 (Of which Limerick: 8 Cork: 7 Tipp: 2)

Even if you added Connacht and your new province together, and then added the rest of Leinster except Dublin*, it'd include half the counties of the island, and still be the weakest.


*: This team would then represent: Sligo, Leitrim, Mayo, Roscommon, Galway, Longford, Westmeath, Meath, Louth, Kildare, Offaly, Laois, Wicklow, Carlow, Kilkenny & Wexford.

ArmaniJeanss

Its quite an interesting topic as it does highlight one of the few potential flaws of the provincial system the IRFU chose to go with. It's served us brilliantly no doubt but it does leave us uniquely in a position that we are the one country who can't easily expand our number of teams that compete at the highest levels. If ever the times comes when the finances would make it possible.

France or England effectively have an unlimited amount of teams, whilst Scotland, Wales and Italy could create new teams/regions with no arguments as ultimately few people are emotionally attached to any of the current regional setups. My (limited) understanding of NZ, Aus and SA is that cities/regions without a team are content to be feeders in the shortterm but in the long term would love to have their own team at the top table.

But Ireland.... even if the rugby playing/watching population trebled such that more teams were financially viable, even if we produced 200 players of HCup standard we are still kind of stuck with the provincial system. Everyone loves it, supports it, and its the perfect fit at the moment. But it may not always be such. Yet its impossible to see how the splitting of any of the provinces could ever be accepted by the public.

***
(To an extent its analogous to the GAA and its county system - once upon a time it was a perfect fit but over time it's become very flawed. But so culturally embedded that anyone who suggests change is derided).

locum-motion

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

...(To an extent its analogous to the GAA and its county system - once upon a time it was a perfect fit but over time it's become very flawed. But so culturally embedded that anyone who suggests change is derided).

Of course, both our current counties and our current provinces were 'given to' (read 'imposed upon') us by our Anglo-Norman conquerors.
Just don't remind a GAA-head of that, they don't like it!

its_phil

Or put more money towards Connacht (which the IRFU have done) and a 7s team.

Contracting another 40 players would be massive and be a huge loss making exercise for years. Just not worth it and it sounds closer to to Welsh regions than Irish provinces.

Swiwi.

I don't think so. A lot of the appeal of the Irish provinces is that they have very loyal fanbases, which you can't just create by forming a 5th province out of nothing. As its_phil says, bringing Connacht a long even more, and getting a 7s team off the ground (especially with the Olympics) is a better aim.

Korat

London Irish is about as close to a 5th province as there will ever be.

The IRFU is doing well to keep 4 pro teams going as it is. They were going to ditch Connacht not so long ago and, though they are doing well currently, it's only because of a huge investment. The IRFU definitely couldn't afford to fund another team from scratch.

bilston

Maybe it's something to aspire to in the future but for now we need to concentrate on strengthening Connacht and actually strengthening the AIL as well.

Podge_irl

It's an interesting idea. Currently no and quite likely in the future no as well - the provincial system doesn't lend itself easily to the idea.

It's worth noting that quite a few young Irish players have gone abroad for lack of gametime/recognition in Ireland though.

whatawaster

If there was ever room for expanding the pro-12 and Ireland could use another pro team, then surely Leinster A, Munster A or Ulster A would be the way to go. At least the systems for them are in place and as long as they had to register a separate squad from their senior team at the start of the season I wouldn't see an issue

Clareman

New Zealand only had 5 full teams, ok they have a brilliant league system as well, but they still only have 5 full teams. I'd be a lot more interested in seeing a proper 7s setup rather than a 5th team. Anyway, it's not too long ago since it looked like Connacht Rugby wasn't going to be sustainable.

errlloyd

I think the answer is yes. We could support a fifth pro team.

I discussed recently in another thread that I think Ireland have reached the point where our teams are full and we're producing more professionals than are retiring in many positions. We're at the point where lots of our players are going abroad to get gametime. Look at JJ being linked, but apart from that add guys like Farrell, Hart, Copeland, Steenson, Hudson, JoC, and many more.

I've no doubt Leinster for example are hogging talent, we're forcing players who should be breaking through to play in the A team for too long. That's why our A team is so good. Even if you look at Connacht now you have this potential talent in Blade who might not have made a senior start this year if they'd been in the champions cup.

So the answer is yes we could support a fifth side. However, at this point I feel there are better ways at using our extra playing resources and our extra cash resources.

Someone has already mentioned a 7s team. That would be my first port of call for providing an outlet for some of the pros not making it.

Continued development of the a teams would be a good option, I wonder could we get them more gametime per year. Those teams are pretty professional set ups and I can see them becoming more glamorous.

The A players to play for the AIL teams would be my third choice. Call it the New Zealand model if you like, we can't keep adding franchises, but we can boost the feeders. It's a kind of long term move, but each province having an A team means we'd have an extra four effectively pro squads. There are only ten division 1 AIL teams, so if the 100 or so A players were dropping into those teams every week it would hugely boost the league and give everyone else playing at that level another stage to prove themselves on.

We would be less reliant on picking players who happen to perform well in 6th year of secondary school, and be able to pick guys who work onto club teams.

awec

The reasons the pro teams work here is that fans can easily identify with them, everyone has a province so everyone has a team.

Who is going to start supporting a made up team over their existing province?

Isn't the makey uppey nature of the welsh regions one of the reasons they struggle for support?

errlloyd

Has anyone got a number of how many Irish (by which I mean either Irish capped or brought through the Irish system, not granny rule Irish) pro players there are compared to say Welsh or Scottish

abff

While we might be able to support a 5th team, I would not be in favour of a dilution of the resources that are available to the existing teams. If we have extra money, this should be used to strengthen the existing teams, particularly by ensuring we do what it takes to hold onto our best players, like Johnny Sexton.

With him, Leinster would be one of the favourites to win the European Cup this season. Without him, they look likely to finish second in their group and probably won't make it beyond the quarter finals (and are by no means guaranteed to get there).

If and when we have four teams capable of competing regularly for European trophies, that would be the time to start looking at having a fifth team. Even then, I would be concerned about having a natural fan base and the only one that might have some kind of logic would be to split Leinster between Dublin and the rest of the province.

Philo Beddoe

If you want people from Kildare, Offaly, Longford, Westmeath and Louth to support a rugby team you couldn't pick a worse place to base it than Meath.

Clareman

I'm thinking if you MUST setup a fifth team it could be a Dublin team, leave a Leinster team in place and just have a new team for the capital.

nc6000

Yurt! wrote: »

Given the growth of the game as both a spectator sport and in terms of participation numbers could Ireland sustain a 5th team in the future?

Judging by the crowd in Lansdowne last night and the recent crowds in Thomond I think provincial rugby is losing spectators not gaining them.

Neil3030

Until a point where the incumbent provinces are all frequently finishing top 6 of the rabo, and losing a number of young emigrating players sourcing gametime each season, a fifth province has no logical justification.

Jawgap

It's an interesting question - I think we could sustain a 5th pro-team, but it would be a significant burden and it would probably mean 5 mediocre teams.

I think Connacht should be fully developed before there's any talk of a 5th team, as well - as someone has already suggested - as developing a decent sevens scene.

Also, in terms of expanding the player base, I'd suggest that a lot more is done to push women's rugby - we might as well reinforce success!

BOHtox

I think it's an interesting question that may have to be answered down the road. Immediately the IRFU should concentrate on winning their bid to host the world cup, developing a 7s team and improving the standard of Connacht.

If we do host the world cup and Rugby participation surges in this country, the question then may have to be answered but I imagine it's unlikely to happen

CIARAN_BOYLE

I reckon we would have a pro sevens team and a semi-pro ail premier division before we make up a team with no fan connection that will struggle to connect with the fans.

Jawgap

I wonder if there isn't some way the IRFU couldn't develop stronger and more formal links with London Irish and then rotate players, coaching staff etc through that club and academy?

Likewise players coming through their academy could rotate through the provinces system here to get a broader experience and allow us to get first dibs on any that might qualify and be interested in playing for Ireland.

Podge_irl

LI are affiliated with the RFU and get benefits from providing english squad players. The days of LI being connected with the IRFU ended with professionalism.

ulster_Beef

"Ireland, Ireland, together standing tall.....From the 4 and a half proud Provinces of Ireland"

thelad95

You only have to look at Sporting Fingal to show the perils of setting up a brand new professional sports team with no previous history. No fanbase, no passion and very little chance of long-term survival.

Clareman

thelad95 wrote: »

You only have to look at Sporting Fingal to show the perils of setting up a brand new professional sports team with no previous history. No fanbase, no passion and very little chance of long-term survival.

Just check out BT Sports 2 to see it right now

errlloyd

Clareman wrote: »

Just check out BT Sports 2 to see it right now

I know you were tongue in cheek, but the scarlets are one of the only Welsh teams with any history, they're a pretty seamless continuation of Llanelli.

They suffer cause they haven't won anything in 10 years and haven't looked like winning anything in about that amount of time as well. I think if an Irish province was that unsuccessful fans would drift away.

BBDBB

regardless of whatever else may or may not be wrong in their respective games, surely the Welsh and Scottish forays into professionalism has demonstrated that you cant draw a line on a map and expect fans to switch loyalties to a brand new 'franchise'

twinytwo

nc6000 wrote: »

Judging by the crowd in Lansdowne last night and the recent crowds in Thomond I think provincial rugby is losing spectators not gaining them.

Your sir have noticed what is known as the bandwagon supporter... Its only when the teams arnt doing so well that you see who the real supporters are

LeinsterDub

locum-motion wrote: »

Of course, both our current counties and our current provinces were 'given to' (read 'imposed upon') us by our Anglo-Norman conquerors.
Just don't remind a GAA-head of that, they don't like it!

I'm a GAA head amongst other things and I couldn't careless.

English Lurker

I think Ireland could handle a 5th pro team although it would be a long hard slog for the whole of Ireland to establish such a team as worthwhile.

That's just a comment on feasibility. I think it would be an incredibly foolish idea. Less teams with better squads makes for a better standard of rugby if you ask me, which means better players for the national team and a better product with which to attract fans. Diluting that would be madness.

Dr. Kenneth Noisewater

The new 5th province would have no rugby stronghold as such. When you thunk of the major rugby playing areas in Ireland, you think of Dublin, Limerick and north east Ulster but Connacht has no real major rugby centre point. I think we're doing well to sustain 4 teams as it is with the playing numbers. Connacht have done very well to get the crowds up to the level they're at now compared to 5 or 6 years ago and consolidation should be the aim there.

badknees

I think you need to invest in the grass roots first ,as someone posted earlier if you look at the clubs that are established they tend to be very much provincial orientated and are close to the provinces home grounds.I can only talk from an Ulster perspective but I would like to see the money that would be pumped into a fifth team going into the Likes of Derry,Donegal,Cavan and Monaghan and developing the game in those counties.A rugby hub in each of those counties would appear to be a sensible approach with links to schools and the like.

The Lost Sheep

I would rather we work on the areas within each of the provinces where there is little or no grassroots rugby and built them up and while we potentially could handle a team in terms of players this new team would have no identity as others have mentioned already and would struggle to attract crowds etc

There is large parts of the country where kids have to travel great distances to play club ball and schools rugby in many areas is primarily just introducing the sport to new boys and girls. Even in Dublin in rugby strongholds if not in certain schools you will struggle to find rugby to play directly on your doorstep at underage level

RugbyLover123

Philo Beddoe wrote: »

If you want people from Kildare, Offaly, Longford, Westmeath and Louth to support a rugby team you couldn't pick a worse place to base it than Meath.

Whys that?

razorblunt

Nah sure that's what we have Grenoble for!

odin_ie

razorblunt wrote: »

Nah sure that's what we have Grenoble for!

London Irish too!!!

iDave

Where would 'The Druids' (sigh) play their home games?

thelad95

iDave wrote: »

Where would 'The Druids' (sigh) play their home games?

The Hill of Tara.

desertcircus

This will not and should not happen. At any rate, it would make far more sense to split Munster between Thomond and Musgrave than to try to make two teams in a province with one major city and no demographic or geographic basis for a split.

As has been said, though, it'd be an absolutely awful idea anyway.

iDave

thelad95 wrote: »

The Hill of Tara.

Close to the M3 ok, but not really a level playing surface. :P

thelad95

So would the Druids be sponsored by... Druids?

connachta

thelad95 wrote: »

You only have to look at Sporting Fingal to show the perils of setting up a brand new professional sports team with no previous history. No fanbase, no passion and very little chance of long-term survival.

Yeah, need to avoid the Scottish Borders syndrome : dilution..

Stan27

An interesting question and a great discussion. With all the players coming through and playing abroad. Maybe in 10 years time ect who knows. But it would be a huge expense. For me I think invest in the AIL. great competition and if I had my way it should be on tv. 7's too. I would say connacht but thy are going very well lately. Maybe have equal funding for all 4 provences would help.

Beery Eyed

Interesting suggestion, particularly because of the rate that we are producing high level players now. Far more than ever before. However, I don't think a fifth pro team is the ideal solution. I think that four pro teams can cover our needs for top level players if we manage them correctly & distribute players well.

My suggestion would be a second tier pro/semi-pro setup in Ireland, much like the Aussies have brought in with the National Rugby Championship. They have a 9 team comp, which covers the major population hubs & is played after the conclusion of their premier club competitions, while the internationals are away with Aus. Therefore it combines each seasons best club players with the provincial players who are just below international level. Same setup as NPC in NZ or Currie Cup in SA.

It's a self-funded competition, which is key, and they do this by having their own sponsor (Buildcorp). In our case, I think it would be possible to find a national sponsor & local sponsors, given that it could become an exciting competition with several future stars being involved. If the teams were placed in the right areas, I also think it would be an exciting prospect for current rugby fans, and might even draw in some more fans on a local level. The pro & academy players that would be involved are already being funded provincially, and since this would be a developmental competition for their young guys it would be a benefit for them.

I'd probably like to see teams based in:

• Cork (South Munster)
• Limerick (North Munster)
• Belfast (Antrim & Down)
• Dublin North
• Dublin South (possibly West Dublin as well)
• Galway (West/Connacht)
• Derry (Combining Ulster clubs/players away from Belfast)
• Leinster (combining players from Leinster, outside of Co. Dublin)

That would be 8/9 teams with good bases to work from.

AIL 1A finishes April. National comp could be played late April, May, June. During that time the top pro competitions are coming to a conclusion & then the internationals go on tour, so the involvement of fringe provincial players is very limited & primarily the top pro's are playing every week.

Anyway, whatever it is, it's always worthwhile to discuss restructuring. Even if you think the system is near perfect, there's probably something that can be improved upon. That would just be my ideal addition/solution.