Penalty point loophole

pa990

Does anyone know what the penalty point loophole is, as reported in today's newspapers.

Exact details aren't being released, but surely someone knows

mickdw

Maybe it's a reference to the fact that hundreds of speeding charges by go safe vans have been thrown out of court.
I have not seen todays papers though.

bcmf

Govt are keeping very quiet about it and referred to AG for clarification meaning it's a fairly big and legal hole.
It has got to do with the upgraded points for no seatbelt and using a phone.
Government don't wanna make it public as it mean the possible rescinding of thousands and thousands of points and probably the refund of fines not to mention the mess if your insurance has increased because of the incurrence of points.

Kenny Logins

mickdw wrote: »

Maybe it's a reference to the fact that hundreds of speeding charges by go safe vans have been thrown out of court.
I have not seen todays papers though.

No, it's mobile phone offences.

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/howlin-we-will-close-penalty-points-loophole-653919.html

dobman88

It has to do with the notice period given by AGS. If you are in court and say you had not recieved the minimum notice required, AGS have no way of proving otherwise, yet. The notice period is 28 days notice of a fine and 56 days notice of a court appearance. All in my completely unprofessional opinion.

This is just my opinion and not legal advice but I think that's the general jist of it.

pa990

dobman88 wrote: »

It has to do with the notice period given by AGS. If you are in court and say you had not recieved the minimum notice required, AGS have no way of proving otherwise, yet. The notice period is 28 days notice of a fine and 56 days notice of a court appearance. All in my completely unprofessional opinion.

This is just my opinion and not legal advice but I think that's the general jist of it.

That makes no sense.

Kenny Logins

pa990 wrote: »

That makes no sense.

It does..

bcmf

From what I heard on the Radio this morning it only relates to the legislation brought in in September and an isuue with the wording.
Some eagle eyed solicitor must have spotted it.

gandalf

Does this mean that penalty points issued at the increased levels will be quashed automatically?

dobman88

pa990 wrote: »

That makes no sense.

This is basically what some legal expert ssid on the radio earlier. Apparently the AGS cannot yet prove when you received your notice.

Instead of just making a childish comment, why don't you put forward a counter argument?

evosteo

I too would be interested in finding out about this 😉

FullblownRose

dobman88 wrote: »

It has to do with the notice period given by AGS. If you are in court and say you had not recieved the minimum notice required, AGS have no way of proving otherwise, yet. The notice period is 28 days notice of a fine and 56 days notice of a court appearance. All in my completely unprofessional opinion.

This is just my opinion and not legal advice but I think that's the general jist of it.

Does it apply to any motoring related court appearance arising out of points/fine notices that were not recieved?

Turtle-TM

I would imagine it could be to do with the new rules regarding using your phone in September. It was an absolute mess if you read the actual law. You can't hold your phone while driving, we all know that, but the new law tried to make it an offence to use your phone even when it's in a hands free cradle, and the media were all over it stating it was now illegal "to access information on your phone" while driving, if you read the legislation it was utter nonsense, it made it an offence to read, send, or receive an email, or sms, mms message as long as it was sent to a phone number. So basically if you used an instant messanger service say, that didn't use your phone number you could argue it wasn't illegal. You could also touch your phone in a cradle as much as you want, providing your not reading or typing an email, sms or mms message, but how would a gard now what you were doing on your phone?

I don't know how they'll close that loop hole, if that's what it is, unless they make it an offence to use your phone while driving, full stop.

FullblownRose

(Copied from elsewhere) I am open to correction by any lawyers out there, but it looks to me as though Paschal failed to commence the operative parts of the Road Traffic Act 2014 on 15th August as intended. The Act includes the updated legislation on intoxicated drivers and novice drivers.

SI 382/2014: http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2014/en/si/0382.html
Road Traffic Act 2014: http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/pdf/2014/en.act.2014.0003.pdf

Just what exacty does this loophole cover and will it have implications for impending cases?

ironclaw

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=90168798&postcount=18

I really hope we called it here first

pa990

dobman88 wrote: »

It has to do with the notice period given by AGS. If you are in court and say you had not recieved the minimum notice required, AGS have no way of proving otherwise, yet. The notice period is 28 days notice of a fine and 56 days notice of a court appearance. All in my completely unprofessional opinion.

This is just my opinion and not legal advice but I think that's the general jist of it.

pa990 wrote: »

That makes no sense.

Kenny Logins wrote: »

It does..

Its 28 days to pay a fine at the lower rate
and a further 28 days to pay at the higher rate

dobman88 wrote: »

The notice period is 28 days notice of a fine

You don’t get get 28days notice that a fine is on the way

dobman88 wrote: »

and 56 days notice of a court appearance

You don’t get 56 days notice to appear in court

Notification of a court appearance is via summons, which can be applied for up to 6 months after the date of the offence

fergus1001

did anyone else see that the penalty points issued since august might have to be quashed because of a loophole in the legislation ?

http://www.joe.ie/life-style/a-loophole-could-seen-penalty-points-picked-in-the-last-few-months-quashed/478191

discuss

Special Circumstances

fergus1001 wrote: »

did anyone else see that the penalty points issued since august might have to be quashed because of a loophole in the legislation ?

http://www.joe.ie/life-style/a-loophole-could-seen-penalty-points-picked-in-the-last-few-months-quashed/478191

discuss

thread already open.


Discuss.

fergus1001

http://www.joe.ie/life-style/a-loophole-could-seen-penalty-points-picked-in-the-last-few-months-quashed/478191

said here it applies to all increases that came in august

fergus1001

ok mods can delete away so

Kildare787

I am positive I got done in the snakiest speed trap coming from blanch onto the navan road last week at the travel lodge hotel. Does anyone know if it's actually 50km at that point. It's four bloody lanes I can't comprehend how it's 50!! I was doing maybe 70km going to work after rushing out to get the misses a present on Black Friday. Justice will be served if I don't get it now. Money has hungry sewer dwellers!

Specialun

According to today fm earlier it is to do with all offences where the PP were increased in august

I would love if it was quashed as i got 3 points in sep but i just cannot see it happening

Fingers crossed

fergus1001

Specialun wrote: »

According to today fm earlier it is to do with all offences where the PP were increased in august

I would love if it was quashed as i got 3 points in sep but i just cannot see it happening

Fingers crossed

and 60 euro back

the guards will be out day and night clawing it back now

Heroditas

pj12332 wrote: »

I am positive I got done in the snakiest speed trap coming from blanch onto the navan road last week at the travel lodge hotel. Does anyone know if it's actually 50km at that point. It's four bloody lanes I can't comprehend how it's 50!! I was doing maybe 70km going to work after rushing out to get the misses a present on Black Friday. Justice will be served if I don't get it now. Money has hungry sewer dwellers!

The cops are there several times a week. It's a notorious spot for them, as is the other side of the road outbound.

fergus1001

its no where to be seen on rte news ??

must be against the state broadcaster to do or say anything against the government

ironclaw

fergus1001 wrote: »

its no where to be seen on rte news ??

must be against the state broadcaster to do or say anything against the government

Or perhaps it wasn't deemed new worthy as its basically 'There is a loophole but no one knows for sure what it is' Honestly, how much air time could you get out of that? 30 seconds?

I'm not RTE's biggest fan but enough of that wailing on them :rolleyes:

askU

Quote:
The regulations make it an offence to send or read a text message from a mobile phone while driving a mechanically propelled vehicle. These regulations apply to mobile phones which are not being held, i.e. to hands-free devices.

‘Text message’ in these regulations includes an SMS or MMS message, or an email.

‘MMS’ means a Multimedia Messaging Service which sends messages that include
multimedia content between mobile or fixed numbers assigned in accordance with national numbering plans.
‘SMS’ means a Short Message Service text message, composed principally of alphabetical or numerical characters, capable of being sent between mobile or fixed numbers assigned in accordance with national numbering plans.
I'm not a solicitor, but 'between mobile or fixed numbers assigned in accordance with national numbering plans' wouldn't cover the likes of iMessage where contacts can be defined by email addresses and not phone numbers.

By my reading, its not an offence to use a GPS or touch the screen for other purposes. In fact, the only offence seems to be messaging (SMS, Text and Email) But I doubt any Garda will listen to you because its frankly impossible to tell from a distance what someone is doing on their phone.

Quote:
Contrary to some misleading media reports, they do not make it an offence to speak via a hands-free device. Nor do they make it an offence to touch a button on a hand-free device in order to answer a phone call.

fergus1001

ironclaw wrote: »

Or perhaps it wasn't deemed new worthy as its basically 'There is a loophole but no one knows for sure what it is' Honestly, how much air time could you get out of that? 30 seconds?

I'm not RTE's biggest fan but enough of that wailing on them :rolleyes:

because its another big cock up by the government the minister will be felling the heat if it comes true that a load of penalty points are being done away with

we heard enough about the quashing of penalty points as it is ha

Chiparus

What if you have a multi media screen in the car that can display text messages?

Kildare787

Heroditas wrote: »

The cops are there several times a week. It's a notorious spot for them, as is the other side of the road outbound.

Is it 50 yes??

slimjimmc

Chiparus wrote: »

What if you have a multi media screen in the car that can display text messages?

At the moment the prohibition only applies to mobile phones which is defined below. The Minister has the authority to introduce further regulations for other devices but hasn't done so yet.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2014/en/si/0178.html

4. A person shall not while driving a mechanically propelled vehicle in a public place—
(a) send a text message, or
(b) read a text message,
from a mobile phone.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2006/en/act/pub/0023/sec0003.html

“ hands-free device ” means a device designed so that when used in conjunction with a mobile phone there is no need for the user to hold the phone by hand;
:
“ mobile phone ” means a portable communication device, other than a two-way radio, with which a person is capable of making or receiving a call or performing an interactive communication function, but for the purposes of subsection (1) does not include a hands-free device;
“ portable ” in relation to a mobile phone, means the phone is designed or adapted to be carried by a person;

ronn

I got done by a "Flash for cash van" on Cork St on the 7th October, got the letter in the post 2 points and €80 fine, sent that off and got a reply from the RSA saying I've 3 points, did it not change from today?????

evosteo

Are we any closer to finding out the loophole?

Just stumbled across this http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/penalty-points-loophole-may-be-bigger-than-first-thought-654049.html

expectationlost

indo who say they broke the story http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/putupon-paschal-motors-on-after-a-turbulent-week-30820836.html

One possible scenario is that cases involving motorists being put off the road after accumulating the maximum 12 points on their licences could be challenged.

Valetta

expectationlost wrote: »

indo who say they broke the story http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/putupon-paschal-motors-on-after-a-turbulent-week-30820836.html

Anything can be challenged, so nothing new there.

king2

Got a fixed penalty notice for doing 70 in a 60 zone. I wouldnt mind paying a fine for doing something dangerous but this kind of thing is bull****. Be great if it got nullified.

I wonder is the story something to do with not being able to prove that you got the fixed penalty notice like someone said earlier in this thread. When you think about it, if you dont pay the fine and get a summons, you can state in court that you never received the notice and they can't prove that you did. Letters do get lost in the post. All those notices should be sent by registered post

expectationlost

Valetta wrote: »

Anything can be challenged, so nothing new there.

true and people are constantly getting off penalty points on technicalities, but when the last time the had fix a loophole like this in a few days?

dingus12

What would happen in a situation where you are using say an iphone, not on handsfree, the guard stops you, you tell him this is not a phone, it is an ipod touch (they look almost the same), are you obliged to hand the iphone to the guard for him to check if the device can make a telephone call?

If he proceed's to take you to court for it, and you present an ipod to the judge, how could he determine you where using a phone?

you could literally hold an ipod touch to your ear and listen to music, what would be illegal about it?

ironclaw

dingus12 wrote: »

What would happen in a situation where you are using say an iphone, not on handsfree, the guard stops you, you tell him this is not a phone, it is an ipod touch (they look almost the same), are you obliged to hand the iphone to the guard for him to check if the device can make a telephone call?

If he proceed's to take you to court for it, and you present an ipod to the judge, how could he determine you where using a phone?

you could literally hold an ipod touch to your ear and listen to music, what would be illegal about it?

The catch-all would be dangerous driving / driving without due care and attention. And frankly if you are fiddling with an iPod touch, or worse holding it to your ear, while driving then you shouldn't be on the road.

Del2005

king2 wrote: »

Got a fixed penalty notice for doing 70 in a 60 zone. I wouldnt mind paying a fine for doing something dangerous but this kind of thing is bull****. Be great if it got nullified.

I wonder is the story something to do with not being able to prove that you got the fixed penalty notice like someone said earlier in this thread. When you think about it, if you dont pay the fine and get a summons, you can state in court that you never received the notice and they can't prove that you did. Letters do get lost in the post. All those notices should be sent by registered post

They removed the it got lost in the post defence a good few years ago, all that they need is proofof posting. I think judges sometimes give the option of taking just the 2 points but get one on a bad day and you could get the maximum.

expectationlost

Minister Donohoe publishes amending road traffic legislation to deal with penalty points issue

No interruption to the enforcement of road traffic offences under the penalty points system

http://www.dttas.ie/press-releases/2014/minister-donohoe-publishes-amending-road-traffic-legislation-deal-penalty-points explaination

http://www.oireachtas.ie/viewdoc.asp?DocID=27773&&CatID=59 bill

seems to be just that they didn't join all the dots as they amended the two previous bills

cml387

I seem to read this (and maybe I'm wrong) that any penalty points incurred which were not applied by a court since August are null and void.

_davidsmith_

Yeah so are penalty points issued since August still valid?

expectationlost

cml387 wrote: »

I seem to read this (and maybe I'm wrong) that any penalty points incurred which were not applied by a court since August are null and void.

Donohoe said [some] penatly points "had been paused"


he said on the radio that the penalty points would be given, received and fine paid, but "not applied to your license" till after they fix this.

this was rte radio news at one i think

makeorbrake

expectationlost wrote: »

Donohoe said penatly points had been paused


he said on the radio that the penalty points would be given, received and fine paid, but "not applied to your license" till after they fix this.

Could they not be a bit clearer about all of this!?

Ok, so if someone has had points applied (and confirmation of same from RSA) for an offence which occurred since 1st August, are those points valid? ....or...if they are not currently valid, will they become valid retrospectively when the 'fix' is signed into law?

fergus1001

makeorbrake wrote: »

Could they not be a bit clearer about all of this!?

Ok, so if someone has had points applied (and confirmation of same from RSA) for an offence which occurred since 1st August, are those points valid? ....or...if they are not currently valid, will they become valid retrospectively when the 'fix' is signed into law?

"The Attorney General has advised me to add a provision to the Bill to address the error and to provide that penalty points endorsed to licences since August can stand as intended. When I became aware of the error last Wednesday week, I instructed that no further points should be endorsed on licences pending the resolution of the difficulties. The Bill will provide that these points can now be endorsed on the relevant licences."

if they are on your licence they stay and if they are given out they will be put on your licence when the legislation is put through

makeorbrake

fergus1001 wrote: »

"The Attorney General has advised me to add a provision to the Bill to address the error and to provide that penalty points endorsed to licences since August can stand as intended. When I became aware of the error last Wednesday week, I instructed that no further points should be endorsed on licences pending the resolution of the difficulties. The Bill will provide that these points can now be endorsed on the relevant licences."

if they are on your licence they stay and if they are given out they will be put on your licence when the legislation is put through

Thanks for that. At least, that's clear. I guess it's not a case of Christmas having come early after all.:D

expectationlost

Government amendment No. 1: In page 4, between lines 23 and 24, to insert the following:“(4) If this section would, but for this subsection, conflict with a constitutional right of any person, the operation of this section shall be subject to such limitation as is necessary to secure that it does not so conflict but shall otherwise be of full force and effect.”.

https://www.kildarestreet.com/sendebates/?id=2014-12-16a.375&s=twitter#g380

says this is so it doesn't interfere with relevant court cases that have started eg http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/woman-bids-to-quash-penalty-points-in-loophole-test-case-30839878.html

expectationlost

explainatory memo http://www.oireachtas.ie/documents/bills28/bills/2014/11314/b11314s-memo.pdf

As of 8 December, there is a fixed charge penalty for the offences of using a vehicle without a valid NCT certificate and parking in a dangerous position, with penalty points consequent on payment of the fixed charge. Previously people accused of these offence were required to go court, and received a higher level of penalty points on conviction.

Section 2
(1) of the Road Traffic Act 2002 provides for the endorsement of penalty
points on a licence record following payment of a fixed charge. This section
expressly exempts from its effect a list of those penalty point offences which are
not fixed charges. When the NCT and dangerous parking offences were made
fixed charge offences, they should have been deleted from the list of exemptions.
Due to an oversight, this was not done.

and a second issue re commencement of various sectiomns

makeorbrake

Is the consensus that this loophole is well and truly plugged or is it being challenged?

expectationlost

makeorbrake wrote: »

Is the consensus that this loophole is well and truly plugged or is it being challenged?

there was some mention of some women who was taking a challenge at the time...

A WOMAN has launched a High Court action aimed at quashing the six penalty points she received after she broke the speed limit twice on the same day.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/woman-bids-to-quash-penalty-points-in-loophole-test-case-30839878.html

im not sure if this was directly related to the issues they fixed though, if you believe the DOT the endorsement of points might just be delayed, although I suppose a judge could decide that her case wasn't handled properly at the time