Penalty Points for Learner Permit Holders

JP Liz V1

The new penalty point offences include learner permit holders driving unaccompanied or failing to display an L Plate, and failure by novice drivers to display an N Plate. For each of these offences, the points will be two on payment of a fixed charge or four on conviction in court.


http://www.dttas.ie/press-releases/2014/minister-donohoe-announces-new-penalty-point-offences-penalty-points-adjustments

Henry Ford III

If these are enforced it'll mean changes for many.

kerry4sam

JP Liz V1 wrote: »

The new penalty point offences include learner permit holders driving unaccompanied or failing to display an L Plate, and failure by novice drivers to display an N Plate. For each of these offences, the points will be two on payment of a fixed charge or four on conviction in court.


http://www.dttas.ie/press-releases/2014/minister-donohoe-announces-new-penalty-point-offences-penalty-points-adjustments

Yeah I saw that. Enforcement is Key here, but I cannot remember when last I saw a check-point anywhere tbh.

ABajaninCork

Window dressing. I can't see this having much effect. Should be at least five points, E200 fine and the car taken IMO.

dublinjen

ABajaninCork wrote: »

Window dressing. I can't see this having much effect. Should be at least five points, E200 fine and the car taken IMO.

Ridiculous.

The accompanied driver rule after the first six months is a joke. There are absolutely NIL studies showing there is any added benefit to having another driver in the car in fact it probably reduces concentration! This is a little totem pole for the government to try and prove they are tough on road safety.

Whats really going on here is they're creating talk about the new penalty points to draw away from the increasing scrutiny the farcical speed traps are getting from the public - which on average do not target accident blackspots theyre supposedly intended for.

The learner driver system is a complete money spinning game.

Theory test €72
Permit upon passing test €35
Test €85 which will be forfitted for minor reasons as described by the op - if a garda would allow you to continue driving the vehical so too should the examiner.

ABajaninCork

Are you serious???

How the hell is learning a life skill i.e. driving a 1 ton lump of steel safely a 'money-spinning game'? Pray tell me what you propose instead - I'm waiting with bated breath...

Please also point me in the direction of the studies of which you speak. If you're being taught to drive, then you have an instructor in the car -correct? You also have an examiner in the car when you take your test - am I also right? And at some point in your driving life, you will also have passengers in the car. Unless of course you propose to have a virtual driving test with a virtual examiner and always drive alone without passengers. Please tell me you're not thinking of becoming a PSV driver!

It absolutely defies logic and is typical of the self-entitled culture I've seen here with regard to driving. This is the only country in the world where people drive alone without a licence, and people like you seem to think that learning to drive properly is a waste of money! :eek: Everywhere else, driving is seen as a privilege and not a right. And people PAY for that. Funny, isn't it? They must be mugs paying good money learning to drive :rolleyes:

If you're cribbing about the cost, then you can't afford to learn to drive, never mind the cost of maintaining the vehicle properly, taxing, insuring and making sure the vehicle has a compliant NCT cert. Madness...

dublinjen

ABajaninCork wrote: »

Are you serious???

How the hell is learning a life skill i.e. driving a 1 ton lump of steel safely a 'money-spinning game'? Pray tell me what you propose instead - I'm waiting with bated breath...

Please also point me in the direction of the studies of which you speak. If you're being taught to drive, then you have an instructor in the car -correct? You also have an examiner in the car when you take your test - am I also right? And at some point in your driving life, you will also have passengers in the car. Unless of course you propose to have a virtual driving test with a virtual examiner and always drive alone without passengers. Please tell me you're not thinking of becoming a PSV driver!

It absolutely defies logic and is typical of the self-entitled culture I've seen here with regard to driving. This is the only country in the world where people drive alone without a licence, and people like you seem to think that learning to drive properly is a waste of money! :eek: Everywhere else, driving is seen as a privilege and not a right. And people PAY for that. Funny, isn't it? They must be mugs paying good money learning to drive :rolleyes:

If you're cribbing about the cost, then you can't afford to learn to drive, never mind the cost of maintaining the vehicle properly, taxing, insuring and making sure the vehicle has a compliant NCT cert. Madness...

It's a money spinning game because there are steps put in place to deliberately make applicants incur fees. €72 euro to sit a theory test is exorbitant to say the least, an electronic test with a laminated sheet of paper to prove you've passed?

My point is that there are exactly no studies, none to say learner drivers are any more dangerous driving alone. Sure I believe that any driver would be mad to drive unaccompanied in their first six months driving or until they are fully comfortable. You are taking my point and exaggerating it to a ridiculous effect. Of course learners should have lessons, should drive with passengers but they should also learn to drive under a VARIETY of conditions, just as they will experience upon passing the test. The learner system in Ireland is set up to collect money, simple as, it is a monopoly and they are well aware they can charge any prices they want.

Why do I say it is badly organised ? - learners do not have to do any training on moterway driving, parking - other than pulling up to the side of the road or driving alone!

Not once did I say learning to drive was a waste of money - did I make any reference to the fact that lessons are mandatory now ? I paid premium to the average prices for my lessons, am taking advanced lessons to build up the skills EDT does not teach, pay my insurance, tax, nct. I have no problem with those charges.

I have a problem with the hoops and charges one has to jump through to sit a 20 minute driving test which is poorly organised and invigilated at best.

I have a problem with the government touting unaccompanied learner drivers as the problem on the roads. Tell me, how exactly is an accompanied driver going to stop a crash ? - grab the wheel? more harm than good.

Sam Kade

If they put a Garda outside any college morning and evening they will be plenty penalty points handed out.

challengemaster

dublinjen wrote: »

The learner driver system is a complete money spinning game.

Theory test €72
Permit upon passing test €35
Test €85 which will be forfitted for minor reasons as described by the op - if a garda would allow you to continue driving the vehical so too should the examiner.

If you're going to go off on a rant, at least double check what little facts you actually have. €45 for a theory test for Cat A, B and W. €72 is for C/D which are trucks/busses.

Also if you think the system here is a money spinning game, consider yourself lucky you do not live in holland, where the cost to get a license is over €3000.

Also people quite easily forget that the test examiner is a person going about their daily work activities. They have every right to refuse a test if the vehicle (their workplace) has any fault which may endanger them or cause them harm.

dublinjen

challengemaster wrote: »

If you're going to go off on a rant, at least double check what little facts you actually have. €45 for a theory test for Cat A, B and W. €72 is for C/D which are trucks/busses.

Also if you think the system here is a money spinning game, consider yourself lucky you do not live in holland, where the cost to get a license is over €3000.

Also people quite easily forget that the test examiner is a person going about their daily work activities. They have every right to refuse a test if the vehicle (their workplace) has any fault which may endanger them or cause them harm.

Apologise. The €45 is still exorbitant in my opinion.

The system in Holland cannot be compared to the Irish system in terms of quality.

The test as with all other sections of the learning process is set up to catch money. Testers refuse for not having a tax disc - despite the fact that you can legally drive with proof of payment. There are a number of reasons they will not sit the test which are not based on safety rather loopholes to save money. There is a 7 week waiting time yet if you cancel a test 10 days prior you again loose the €85 fee.

ABajaninCork

dublinjen wrote: »

It's a money spinning game because there are steps put in place to deliberately make applicants incur fees. €72 euro to sit a theory test is exorbitant to say the least, an electronic test with a laminated sheet of paper to prove you've passed?

My point is that there are exactly no studies, none to say learner drivers are any more dangerous driving alone. Sure I believe that any driver would be mad to drive unaccompanied in their first six months driving or until they are fully comfortable. You are taking my point and exaggerating it to a ridiculous effect. Of course learners should have lessons, should drive with passengers but they should also learn to drive under a VARIETY of conditions, just as they will experience upon passing the test. The learner system in Ireland is set up to collect money, simple as, it is a monopoly and they are well aware they can charge any prices they want.

Why do I say it is badly organised ? - learners do not have to do any training on moterway driving, parking - other than pulling up to the side of the road or driving alone!

Not once did I say learning to drive was a waste of money - did I make any reference to the fact that lessons are mandatory now ? I paid premium to the average prices for my lessons, am taking advanced lessons to build up the skills EDT does not teach, pay my insurance, tax, nct. I have no problem with those charges.

I have a problem with the hoops and charges one has to jump through to sit a 20 minute driving test which is poorly organised and invigilated at best.

I have a problem with the government touting unaccompanied learner drivers as the problem on the roads. Tell me, how exactly is an accompanied driver going to stop a crash ? - grab the wheel? more harm than good.

Oh dear. Please tell me you don't have a licence...

endacl

€45 is exorbitant?!?

Feck...

ABajaninCork

Oh -and by the way dubjen. The €35 you pay after passing your test? It's actually for a LICENCE. Not a permit as you seem to think. The permit allows you to learn to drive...

dublinjen

Finding it quite hilarious that you're all jumping on the semantics bandwagon - I'd be interested to know if you all agree with the placement of speed vans in speed traps just inside and outside of 30 kmph zones. Little discussion over the statistical evidence or lack thereof showing unaccompanied learner drivers are more dangerous, or of the shortcomings in the EDT system or the shortcomings of the testing framework. It is a money spinning game, simple as, re above yes, €35 for your provisional licence, and then when you pass your test € 55 for the full(novice) licence.

dublinjen

Also most would have no issue with the cost if the system was on par

the_syco

An interesting point came up on newstalk; if you have a provisional, you can get points. If you don't have a provisional, you don't get the points.

But what points do you get if you don't even have a license?

dublinjen wrote: »

The accompanied driver rule after the first six months is a joke. There are absolutely NIL studies showing there is any added benefit to having another driver in the car in fact it probably reduces concentration! This is a little totem pole for the government to try and prove they are tough on road safety.

This is something I don't get either. It actually shows how little the government thinks of someone getting a license. HOWEVER, that said, many accidents do happen after someone gets their license, as they act stupid. I'm unsure if the 6 month thing will jut delay the stupidity, or what?

dublinjen wrote: »

Whats really going on here is they're creating talk about the new penalty points to draw away from the increasing scrutiny the farcical speed traps are getting from the public - which on average do not target accident blackspots theyre supposedly intended for.

Actually, they do target some black spot areas. But most target areas are dangerous roads with nowhere for the van to park safely.

dublinjen wrote: »

Why do I say it is badly organised ? - learners do not have to do any training on moterway driving, parking - other than pulling up to the side of the road or driving alone!

Considering how little of the country has motorway, no.

dublinjen wrote: »

I paid premium to the average prices for my lessons, am taking advanced lessons to build up the skills EDT does not teach, pay my insurance, tax, nct. I have no problem with those charges.

The NCT is a farce. Are you not taking the advanced lessons to lessen your insurance quote?

dublinjen

the_syco wrote: »

An interesting point came up on newstalk; if you have a provisional, you can get points. If you don't have a provisional, you don't get the points.

But what points do you get if you don't even have a license?


This is something I don't get either. It actually shows how little the government thinks of someone getting a license. HOWEVER, that said, many accidents do happen after someone gets their license, as they act stupid. I'm unsure if the 6 month thing will jut delay the stupidity, or what?


Actually, they do target some black spot areas. But most target areas are dangerous roads with nowhere for the van to park safely.


Considering how little of the country has motorway, no.


The NCT is a farce. Are you not taking the advanced lessons to lessen your insurance quote?

It is madness that a person can pass their test after six months and drive unnaccompanied on a motorway with no experience. There are motorways so that skill should be taught.

They target speed traps for the most part, areas with few accidents but drivers typically speed on - I don't speed so it has no effect on me personally other than I feel resources are being misused.

No not for my insurance quote though I don't see how that would matter, general skills which are not taught in EDT. I don't think I even need them to be perfectly honest, but I take road safety and driving skills extremely seriously and plan on doing a refresher course every two years as over time drivers pick up bad habits.

ABajaninCork

On a par with what exactly? This is one of the cheapest places and the easiest to pass a test. My nephew just passed his test in London. Reckon it cost him the guts of £1500. And the test is a lot harder to pass than here.

I don't understand what you're trying to say.

challengemaster

dublinjen wrote: »

Apologise. The €45 is still exorbitant in my opinion.

I see, so how exactly do you propose that the wages for staff at 41 different theory test locations is acquired? Or costs of the actual test centres used? The test system itself? Periodic updates to the test itself and the system? The website and online booking system? Any admin associated with the tests?

The reality is - you're being provided a service, and to be fair to the RSA the DTT is a good service. The costs have to come from somewhere. IMO the fee is fair. Nobody has a given right to drive - It is a luxury and should be paid for accordingly.

The test as with all other sections of the learning process is set up to catch money. Testers refuse for not having a tax disc - despite the fact that you can legally drive with proof of payment. There are a number of reasons they will not sit the test which are not based on safety rather loopholes to save money. There is a 7 week waiting time yet if you cancel a test 10 days prior you again loose the €85 fee.

And all of these things are listed clearly when you apply. You even agree to these conditions when applying for the test. If you read and pay attention to the terms and conditions clearly laid out, you'll have nothing to whinge about.

dublinjen wrote: »

Finding it quite hilarious that you're all jumping on the semantics bandwagon - I'd be interested to know if you all agree with the placement of speed vans in speed traps just inside and outside of 30 kmph zones.

I'm finding it hilarious that you've decided to change to a different argument entirely because you've nothing to back up your initial one.

the_syco wrote: »

The NCT is a farce.

The NCT is the only thing keeping a huge amount of shíteboxes off our roads. No roadworthiness test is perfect, but IMO the issues with the NCT aren't with the test itself - they're with the Irish population as a whole and the general disregard for the upkeep of vehicles and attitude of "be grand"-ness. The carry on of borrowing wheels with decent tyres to pass a safety test on a 1 ton vehicle whose only contact with the ground is the tyres is stupidity beyond belief, yet people do it.

dublinjen wrote: »

It is madness that a person can pass their test after six months and drive unnaccompanied on a motorway with no experience. There are motorways so that skill should be taught.

It's not madness at all, if you've actually done as intended and learned to drive within those 6 months (which by passing a test, you've just proven you have). Irish motorways are the safest roads in the country. The speed limit is a mere 20km/h above that of a national road. Traffic only goes in one direction, oncoming traffic is on the opposite side of armco barriers. They have great visibility and are not challenging roads to drive on at all. There is only 1 rule to driving on motorways - keep left unless overtaking. If you know that, you know how to drive on motorways.

The M50 is the widest motorway with the most lanes in the country. Everything else is 2 lane, just like a dual carraigeway. It's not like the USA here. You won't find a 26 lane Interstate in Ireland. You won't find sections of motorway with no speed limit like the Autobahn.

I fail to see the reasoning behind the hysteria around not having motorway lessons.

bennyc

Quick question, I have 17/yo and am in the process of getting him insured, is he actually covered by insurance to be driving unaccompanied by insurance, I know its an offence but if he is going to be driving 2 mile's in rural ireland to the football pitch where you can see if there is a checkpoint from the house then if he is insured I would let him but if not no chance.

ABajaninCork

AFAIK, it'll be only third party if he drives alone. You need to check the insurance policy carefully. I know with AXA and Aviva, the policy will be invalidated if he does. Why can't he get a lift until he's got a licence? It's not worth taking the chance.

the_syco

challengemaster wrote: »

The NCT is the only thing keeping a huge amount of shíteboxes off our roads. No roadworthiness test is perfect, but IMO the issues with the NCT aren't with the test itself - they're with the Irish population as a whole and the general disregard for the upkeep of vehicles and attitude of "be grand"-ness. The carry on of borrowing wheels with decent tyres to pass a safety test on a 1 ton vehicle whose only contact with the ground is the tyres is stupidity beyond belief, yet people do it.

I suppose I see it as a farce as the same car with the same fault may pass twice on the same fault, and fail the third time. It really is decided by who you get, what time of day it is, and if they care if your car is roadworthy or not. If was more of an exact science, I may have faith in it, but have seen deathtraps on sale shortly after getting an NCT (including a Toyota which your foot would nearly be going through the floor before you felt it gripping!).

bennyc wrote: »

is he actually covered by insurance to be driving unaccompanied by insuranc

If someone hits him, he better get their insurance, as your own insurance won't cover it. If he hits someone, the insurance will pay out to the injured party, but I don't think there's anything stopping them coming after him for the money he cost them as technically he may owe them what he caused them to pay out.