Management Company - Advice Needed!

daisydiary

Hey guys. I'm looking for a little help here. I'll try and keep it brief and outline the situation I'm in. If you need any extra info let me know. I'm going to use assumed names for the companies involved in this in case posting the real names would cause any trouble!

Trying to keep it brief so here goes

I am an owner of an apartment in a complex in North County Dublin.
I signed a lease with Generic Name Square Management Company Limited when I bought the apartment.

It covers all the usual bases including covering excessive noise coming from apartments. I can quote the actual thing verbatim if needs be later.

Anyway, a while back I started having trouble with my adjacent neighbour coming home and partying until all hours. To cut a long story short he doesn't see a problem with it. Won't be stopping anytime soon. This was about a year ago. It's been going on ever since.

The garda said the can't do anything about it.

And the PRTB can't take up a complaint as the guy in next doors apartment is an owner (not a tenant) and they said disputes between owners do not fall under their remit.


So I had been e-mailing the "Managing Agent" who are BlueDoor Property Management. I have paid them in full every year while living here. And at first they promised to deal with the situation. They said all the right things and promised the sun, the moon and the stars. The noisy neighbour wasn't in their good graces as he hadn't paid his bill in years.

Now hes back and worse than ever so I mailed "BlueDoor Property Management". They have seemed to have a change of heart. They now claim they are not responsible for anything other than the upkeep of the halls and lifts and that I actually don't pay them anything. I pay Generic Name Square Management Company Limited who they are merely an agent of.

It took me about 20 seconds to find out that BlueDoor Property Management (the managing agent) & Generic Name Square Management Company Limited (with whom I signed the lease) are both based out of the same unit, of the same office complex in Clontarf.

It seems both are passing the buck to the other and neither is willing to act to stop an owner who is clearly in breach of his lease.

I was just wondering if anyone can offer some advice on how I should proceed. One of these companies must be in charge of enforcing the lease? But they are both basically the same entity working out of the same office.

I'm from a programming background so have no clue about legal stuff. Could some of you guys on here please help me out as I'm at my wits end.

Thanks,
Daisy

Paulw

It is common for the address of the management agent to be the registered business address of the management company.

Your issue needs to be raised with the directors of the management company. You should know who they are from attending your company AGM. You should also raise the issue at your AGM. Other than that, you can find the contact details of the directors on the CRO website.

It sounds like your neighbour is in breach of their lease contract. You should be able to talk to a solicitor about bringing the owner to court for breach of contract, or for not permitting you peaceful use of your unit. You will need to document dates/times/correspondance, etc for your complaints.

Hopefully this helps.

daisydiary

Hey thanks very much PaulW.

I can't find anything listed on the CRO website for the Management Company. The Managing Agent has a listing though.

I've never received an invitation to any Company AGM while I've been here. Ideally I wouldn't want to wait until whenever the next one is.

Paulw

You should be invited to your management company AGM each year.

You should be able to look up "Generic Name Square Management Company Limited" on the CRO website, or similar.

Write to the management agent and ask for the details. But, you should also have the company registration number on correspondance.

Ask the management agent why you have never received your invite to the AGM.

Sounds weird.

MarkAnthony

Daisy I hope you don't mind this little primer but Management Companies and Managing Agents are a bit of a pet rant of mine so here you go:

The Management Company and Managing Agent are two phrases used interchangeably. Really what you're talking about is the OMC (Owner Management Company) and Managing Agent.

You are a shareholder in the OMC and the Managing agent usually provided various services including the role of Company Secretary assisting the Directors that are also shareholders (owners of apartments) in the OMC. Not unusual for the agent's address to be the registered address for the OMC.

+1 on the above, find out who the directors are, get on to them. Make sure you go to the AGM, get a solicitor involved or if you cant afford one FLAC. Some OMCs are very well run and pick excellent managing agents. I'm afraid the majority are very poorly run but usually they'll sort things out to maintain a quiet life. It sounds as if you'd be able to cause significant issues for your OMC as it seems a crappy one from what you've said.

You might also be able to make a complaint to the local council. My personal favourite is speakers up against the partition wall and some classical music at the point of them going to bed (usually about 9/10am), but that won't really help you.

Everyone who is living in an apartment should take an interest in the OMC. I've been looking around for a house and was briefly flirting with the idea of another apartment - I was laughing at some of the management fees out there, they're outrageous. Anything over €1K in a development without 24 hour security/caretaker services need to be very closely looked at. We pay around €1100 in a largeish one bed, car space, lift and impeccable (but not 24 hour) services.

/rant

daisydiary

Thanks Mark Anthony. That was very informative. I really appreciate the help on here.

I guess it was lazy of me not to have sought out the AGM's and stuff since I've been here. Anyway I will definitely find out who the directors are and also make an appearance at the next AGM.

I presume that this has been ongoing and I have records of interactions with the agent will hold some kind of weight?

Thanks again guys

MarkAnthony

daisydiary wrote: »

Thanks Mark Anthony. That was very informative. I really appreciate the help on here.

I guess it was lazy of me not to have sought out the AGM's and stuff since I've been here. Anyway I will definitely find out who the directors are and also make an appearance at the next AGM.

I presume that this has been ongoing and I have records of interactions with the agent will hold some kind of weight?

Thanks again guys

In all honesty the agent isn't really there to resolve this sort of thing, that's for the directors. As for AGMs you should have been informed about these and there are various rules about what notification you need to get, when and where these meetings need to be held. It's not up to you to go looking for this stuff it should be readily available. For example, we hold our AGM in a nearby Hotel at 7:30pm, everyone gets at least 28 days notice.

Our agent does resolve noise complaints but only because there is a procedure in place, agreed with the directors and the agent we have is one of the best in the business. Unfortunately he's retiring in the next few years.

Best of luck with it OP, having gone through six months of noisy neighbours which almost drove me insane you have my sympathies.

NUTLEY BOY

Just some random thoughts.

BTW sympathies to the OP - these people really can be neighbours from hell.

The lease may prohibit excessive noise and the like. However, does that lease confer any right of action on the OP against the neighbour ? I suspect not.

That leaves OP in the position whereby he is left to sort it out himself which is just typical of management companies and their ilk. We will happily take our fees from you and stuff you if you expect us to do anything.

The point is to wonder why there was a provision in the lease (about noise levels) in the first place if it is not going to be enforced when the specified problem arises ?

If privity applies, and I think it does, then the other party to the lease is the one to take up the issue with noisy man.

What other rights does OP have ? He could take proceedings for nuisance against noisy man. Good luck with getting the proofs together for that case ! In real world terms this is not a practical or reasonable idea.

In OP's position I would be looking at getting at Generic Name .... to do their job. They have the leasehold relationship with noisy man. I would write to them and threaten to make a professional negligence claim against them because their negligence and failure to enforce a term (that is in the lease for the common good of all tenants) is causing OP the loss of his basic right to use and enjoy his property. Don't pay too much heed to the standard "nothing to do with us" response as that is classical shirking.

I don't know what is in the lease between OP and Generic Name..... but would be looking at the wording to see if there is also a breach of contract by their failure to do their job to deal with noisy man.

As far as Gardai are concerned their reflex-arc response to these matters is along the lines that any such problem is a civil matter. Sometimes this is right and sometimes not. Some problems can have both a civil and a criminal dimension. For example, if the noisy man's conduct became a matter of harrassment it would be a Garda matter for sure.

In real terms I suspect that OP is going to have real difficulty in getting this resolved by legal means and that is just one of the joys of apartment living.

Paulw

The OP would have to take a case against the Management company (which they are party to) for failure to enforce the lease contract. The management company, via the management agent should be enforcing the contract with the offending unit owner.

Hassle the directors of the management company, and the management agent. Let them feel your pain.

In most leases there are some clauses that are strictly enforced and many that are not - such as pets, satellite dishes, hanging washing, etc. These are common issues.

It is down to how people deal with the directors of their management company and how hard the management company push on the management agent to enforce them. If the management company don't push the agent, then the agent won't do a whole lot.

daisydiary

Hey guys thanks a million again.

Paulw when you say 'take a case against the management company' what are you talking about? Saying to them "sort out the enforcement of your own rules or I'll sue you for failure to enforce them and all the stress that has gone with it" ???

MarkAnthony

daisydiary wrote: »

Hey guys thanks a million again.

Paulw when you say 'take a case against the management company' what are you talking about? Saying to them "sort out the enforcement of your own rules or I'll sue you for failure to enforce them and all the stress that has gone with it" ???

Forget stress the legal system isn't there for that and where it is there are specific avenues for it.

You're a shareholder in the OMC and the directors are there to ensure certain things are done. Even from the little bit of info you've given here there's enough to start making some noise. (no pun intended). If you're serious about getting this sorted speak to a solicitor.

daisydiary

Okay thanks. I could do without the cost as I'm pretty strapped for cash but I guess I have no choice at this stage.

If only people could behave reasonably

MarkAnthony

daisydiary wrote: »

Okay thanks. I could do without the cost as I'm pretty strapped for cash but I guess I have no choice at this stage.

If only people could behave reasonably

You first stage should be to engage with the management co. Ideally with some advice from a solicitor before you do so. Make an appointment with your local FLAC (www.FLAC.ie) you should get some guidance there.

Alternatively a good solicitors firm will do a cheap/free initial consultation.

billy few mates

Tell them you won't be paying your Management Fees until they sort out your issues, tell them you'll be using the money to find a legal solution to solve the problem if they won't do it for you...

Paulw

billy few mates wrote: »

Tell them you won't be paying your Management Fees until they sort out your issues, tell them you'll be using the money to find a legal solution to solve the problem if they won't do it for you...

Oh great advice. That makes a lot of sense. :eek: Not paying your fees gives you no more leverage at all and only gets you in more trouble.

Issues like this can take time to fix (many months), especially if it goes legal at all.

MarkAnthony

billy few mates wrote: »

Tell them you won't be paying your Management Fees until they sort out your issues, tell them you'll be using the money to find a legal solution to solve the problem if they won't do it for you...

This is exactly the prevalent attitude in Ireland and why so many OMCs are a disaster. If everyone realised that they are an active part of the OMC and worked together apartments wouldn't have the issues they do.

You're not a customer of the OMC you are a shareholder. If you do something detrimental to the complex you are cutting off your nose to spite your face.

In many, many instances the Managing Agent should have their professional fees withheld, that's a completely different thing and something the OMC need to vote on. Failing that they need to find a better managing agent, but that seems to be the last thing people want to do so it costs them hundreds if not thousands a year.

billy few mates

Why should you pay for something you're not getting...?

The Management Company initially said they'd sort it out and then abandoned her, if it was me I'd tell them in writing I was going to 'withhold' the fees until they sort the problem out, if they still refused to get involved I'd use that money to sort the problem myself and then once the matter was resolved to my satisfaction I would start paying them once again.

MarkAnthony

billy few mates wrote: »

Why should you pay for something you're not getting...?

See above.

This isn't a customer relationship it a shareholder relationship.

billy few mates

And the next door neighbour is also a shareholder so keep paying your management fees and get yourself a decent pair of ear defenders....

Paulw

billy few mates wrote: »

The Management Company initially said they'd sort it out and then abandoned her, if it was me I'd tell them in writing I was going to 'withhold' the fees until they sort the problem out, if they still refused to get involved I'd use that money to sort the problem myself and then once the matter was resolved to my satisfaction I would start paying them once again.

No, the management AGENT said they would sort it. But, they can only do what they are instructed to do by the management company.

Withholding fees does nothing but damage your own situation. It gives you less rights and no power. If you haven't paid your fees, then you have no vote (usually, depending on Lease contract) at an AGM. You also put other services in danger, such as security, waste disposal, general maintenance, etc.

Either way, the debt remains with the property, and fees and penalties can be added, increasing your bill for when you "withhold payment".

As a director of a management company, I respond to all issues from those who haven't paid their fees that I will investigate the issue once their fees are paid in full, and until that time, I am unable to assist them. Thankfully that very very seldom happens and we have a 94% full compliance rate of payment of fees.

Work together and things get done. Be a fool and you stand alone.

dubrov

I'm not sure what the management company can do apart from telling the neighbour to keep it down which he will probably ignore.

Fire me repeated excessive nose late at night is a criminal matter. I'd ring the garda every time there is a party running late. Surely they can break up the party for breach of the peace.

Maybe other neighbours feel the same as yourself and you could all get together and make joint complaints.

I suspect suing your neighbour or management company would be costly and produce little results.

Paulw

dubrov wrote: »

I'm not sure what the management company can do apart from telling the neighbour to keep it down which he will probably ignore.

The management company can take the offender to court for breach of contract and seek an enforcement order.

dubrov

What does the enforcement order do and can it be ignored?

blacklilly

Paulw wrote: »

The management company can take the offender to court for breach of contract and seek an enforcement order.

Would you happen to know if there's any case law on this?

I have been involved with cases which have been brought to court by the complainant and the MA/OMC have assisted with such cases.

Ultimately, yes the OMC have an obligation to enforce such rules/covenants but regardless of which way the case is taken, it is a relatively long road to take.

Paulw

dubrov wrote: »

What does the enforcement order do and can it be ignored?

It would compel the offender to abide by the terms of the contract, and if they breach that then they would be in contempt of court, and could be jailed.

blacklilly wrote: »

Would you happen to know if there's any case law on this?

Ultimately, yes the OMC have an obligation to enforce such rules/covenants but regardless of which way the case is taken, it is a relatively long road to take.

No, I'm not aware of any specific case law on it. We took a case against a problem causing unit owner, but once they were served with a court date, they quickly changed their tune and became almost model unit owners.

Yeah, it's a very very long road. But, if the OMC stand behind it all the way, then it can work.

blacklilly

Paulw wrote: »

No, I'm not aware of any specific case law on it. We took a case against a problem causing unit owner, but once they were served with a court date, they quickly changed their tune and became almost model unit owners.

Yeah, it's a very very long road. But, if the OMC stand behind it all the way, then it can work.

Yea, it would require a strong Board of Directors to bring the case, hopefully the OMC the OP is part of have that.

Also, as an aside, I had an issue with an incredibly disruptive landlord over a period of time. He was distruptive to many people so numerous complaints were lodged, however no one would contact the guards about his behaviour as they felt threatned by him. I sought legal advice on the matter, which bascially advised of two routes, court order or behavioural warning. He was issued with a behavioural warning and there hasn't been a peep from him since.