stolen vehicle found on private driveway - warrant?

FGR

As above really. Normally for gardai to take stolen property from a residence they'd need a warrant. If I was to spot a stolen vehicle on a person's driveway and AGS verify same would they still need a warrant to seize it?

Granted I'm aware that the curtilage of a property is usually viewed in a different light in a lot of legislation - do the usual rules apply for this scenario?

It would be mad expecting guards to have to wait outside until they can find a judge who'll grant a warrant.

coylemj

If this isn't an exam question....

In practice the Gardai would knock on the door, inform the householder that the car was stolen and enquire if he/she knew anything about it. The householder would then plead ignorance and allow them to remove it. Anyone doing otherwise would be well aware that they would go off, get a warrant and search the entire premises.

Guy:Incognito

Assuming you have the keys (or even not) you could just drive it away , or tow it. Whats the thief going to do, ring the gardai?:)

slimjimmc

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Assuming you have the keys (or even not) you could just drive it away , or tow it. Whats the thief going to do, ring the gardai?:)

I doubt a thief would leave a stolen car on public display in their own driveway, so it's very likely the current 'owner' (who is probably an innocent victim too) would indeed ring the Gardaí if someone stole it from them.

goz83

There wouldn't be a legal issue though with self recovery of your own property, even if it was on a privste driveway, would there?

FGR

Thanks all. I appreciate the replies.

It crossed my mind as it's an interesting scenario. If you happened upon a stolen television chances are it wouldn't be outside, on a driveway, where you could literally reach out and take it.

You could take the car from the driveway but would the courts throw a prosecution out as it was obtained without a warrant?

conorh91

Supreme Court case of DPP v Forbes.

I don't have a citation offhand but it'll be well covered in the books and online.

AGS have an implied license to enter onto the forecourt of a dwelling in the course of their crime prevention duties. A householder may revoke an implied licence by asking the Gardaí to leave.

Whether or not a a prosecution would fail simply because the Gardaí did not comply with the householder's request to leave the driveway (as opposed to the dwelling) seems unlikely in my view.

Arresting the householder on the driveway, after he has asked that AGS leave, that's shakier ground.

Peregrinus

Simply seeing the stolen car on Somebody's land doesn't prove that Somebody stole it, or is guilty of receiving stolen goods.

But if evidence about this was part of a larger case against Somebody, then anybody who saw the car on Somebody's land could give evidence saying that they saw it there.

That would be admissible, even if the witness, or another person, subsequently unlawfully entered on Somebody's land to remove the car. If the guards discover something as a result of conducting an unlawful search, that's inadmissible. But in this case you don't need any unlawful search to see the car; you can see it from the street. You can give that evidence, and I don't see that it's tainted by any later illegality that might occur.

Victor

What if, following the Garda noticing the stolen vehicle in the driveway, someone attempted to remove it (perhaps via a different exist (house with two different gates)?

Could the Garda enter the property to prevent a potential further offence?

plodder

FGR wrote: »

Thanks all. I appreciate the replies.

It crossed my mind as it's an interesting scenario. If you happened upon a stolen television chances are it wouldn't be outside, on a driveway, where you could literally reach out and take it.

You could take the car from the driveway but would the courts throw a prosecution out as it was obtained without a warrant?

The evidence isn't the car though. It's the fact that the car was seen in the driveway and any photos resulting from that, which could be taken from the street. The only problem might be if the owner took the car away before the gardai got to see it. That might weaken a prosecution because the gardai couldn't testify that they saw it somewhere it shouldn't be.

Peregrinus

plodder wrote: »

The evidence isn't the car though. It's the fact that the car was seen in the driveway and any photos resulting from that, which could be taken from the street. The only problem might be if the owner took the car away before the gardai got to see it. That might weaken a prosecution because the gardai couldn't testify that they saw it somewhere it shouldn't be.

The guards don't have to give that evidence. Anyone who saw the car can give the necessary evidence.

conorh91

Victor wrote: »

What if, following the Garda noticing the stolen vehicle in the driveway, someone attempted to remove it (perhaps via a different exist (house with two different gates)?

Could the Garda enter the property to prevent a potential further offence?

As stated above, the Gardaí would retain an implied licence to enter the area until that license is revoked by the householder.

I presume in your case that the householder has revoked the implied right, and then attempted to drive away via an alternative gate on the property

At worst, it seems that the Gardaí are guilty of trespass to land. But even so, is the subsequent arrest invalidated?

Firstly, necessity is a defence to trespass to land.

Secondly, the householder is not attempting to seek refuge on his property, where such refuge is afforded a weighty constitutional protection.

Instead, he is merely wishing to avail of a fairly technical, legal barrier to trespass to land in order to throw a hazard of tort law in front of the oncoming Garda car, hoping to slow it down as he makes his getaway.

I doubt this is something the courts would entertain. The courts have previously cited the imminent commission of a crime as a valid ground for temporarily suspending normal procedures for entry onto private property.

The householder's rights have been infringed in only a very minimal way with hardly any constitutional aspect at all, relative to the pressing social need for crime detection.