GCHQ tapped Irish telecom cables

Grab All Association

http://www.irishtimes.com/business/technology/uk-spy-base-gchq-tapped-irish-internet-cables-1.2019492

I think its time we call for a Europe-wide investigation into the activities of GCHQ and NSA and expel a few US diplomats.

porsche959

Nothing new in this story surely unless there is other stuff they haven't published?

Kermit.de.frog

I think it's time to invade.

Grab All Association

porsche959 wrote: »

Nothing new in this story surely unless there is other stuff they haven't published?

We knew this for years. There was always rumors going around but Vodafone and the Irish Government always denied any knowledge of this happening but with all the revelations these past two years it will be very hard for them to discredit Edward Snowden and brush this under the carpet. We need an investigation into this including the EU, Data Protection Commissioner, Europol.

The DOJ/DCMNR must have been aware of this surveillance.

porsche959

Chris___ wrote: »

We knew this for years. There was always rumors going around but Vodafone and the Irish Government always denied any knowledge of this happening but with all the revelations these past two years it will be very hard for them to discredit Edward Snowden and brush this under the carpet. We need an investigation into this including the EU, Data Protection Commissioner, Europol.

The DOJ/DCMNR must have been aware of this surveillance.

I don't disagree with you but surely Ireland was heavily surveilled by GCHQ for many years in any case due to the Troubles?

It goes back a long time, GEC Marconi, etc.

Jawgap

Why?

They're gonna do what they're gonna do. Inquiries by handwringing liberals isn't going stop that.

If you don't want to be surveilled, do a Jason Bourne and stay off the grid!!

porsche959

Jawgap wrote: »

Why?

They're gonna do what they're gonna do. Inquiries by handwringing liberals isn't going stop that.

If you don't want to be surveilled, do a Jason Bourne and stay off the grid!!

Ah yes, the old 'if you're not doing nuffin wrong, you've nuffin to worry about' meme rears its head.

Boiling frogs, etc.

Jawgap

porsche959 wrote: »

Ah yes, the old 'if you're not doing nuffin wrong, you've nuffin to worry about' meme rears its head.

Boiling frogs, etc.

Well I wasn't saying that - just expressing the need to be 'real' - we could have all the inquiries we want, expel all the US and UK diplomats in the EU and the surveillance will still continue.

Are people really that surprised to find out that countries spy on each other?

porsche959

Jawgap wrote: »

Well I wasn't saying that - just expressing the need to be 'real' - we could have all the inquiries we want, expel all the US and UK diplomats in the EU and the surveillance will still continue.

Are people really that surprised to find out that countries spy on each other?

Fair points.

Gormley85

porsche959 wrote: »

Ah yes, the old 'if you're not doing nuffin wrong, you've nuffin to worry about' meme rears its head.

Boiling frogs, etc.

But its true though. Most people freak out about this stuff when they think government/gmail are doing basic scans on all your outgoing emails for keywords and saving anything that they find interesting. But really who cares? Once your not doing anything wrong it will just be looked at and then passed over. The government have better things to be doing with their time then saving a collection of kinky text messages between someone and his wife. This whole thing gets way blown out of proportion by some people.

And on a side note, I admit I didnt read the link, but Im guessing its about this weeks case where MI5 were tapping Irish calls? Personally Im glad that they had those facilities and were able to catch the terrorists before they were able to plant bombs and kill off members of the judiciary. Its just a pity they werent able to stop the Omagh one

Jawgap

I think you'll find a lot of what they are interested in has nothing to do with crime and / or security but furthering their national interests through industrial and commercial espionage

hatrickpatrick

Jawgap wrote: »

Well I wasn't saying that - just expressing the need to be 'real' - we could have all the inquiries we want, expel all the US and UK diplomats in the EU and the surveillance will still continue.

Plenty of people said that about protesting and metered water charges. Look where we are now after people got off their arses and did something about that?

Are people really that surprised to find out that countries spy on each other?

This isn't about countries spying on each other, this is about governments spying on civilians without probably cause.

Grand Moff Tarkin

As long as it is keeping my family and friends safe they can tap into whatever they wish.

Jawgap

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Plenty of people said that about protesting and metered water charges. Look where we are now after people got off their arses and did something about that?



This isn't about countries spying on each other, this is about governments spying on civilians without probably cause.

So you think we have influence over the UK and US governments???

I suppose we could campaign to do a 'Dev' and have the government cut us off from the internet and all modern telecoms.

.......and governments have spied on their citizens for as long as there have been governments and citizens and sovereigns and subjects.

The real surprise would be if there was no spying going on.

questionmark?

I'm glad there is people out there keeping me safe. Look at the recent arrest of IRA members up North and those crazy ISIS followers in the UK. Imagine the carnage if there was no one info gathering on these people. They aint interested in Mary down the road texting John for a sneaky ride!

Mr. G

Jawgap wrote: »

Why?

They're gonna do what they're gonna do. Inquiries by handwringing liberals isn't going stop that.

If you don't want to be surveilled, do a Jason Bourne and stay off the grid!!

Because it's a breach of trust. Privacy is a fundamental right.

I'm not surprised about this. All of Ireland's fibre cables are to the UK and the US. What do you expect..

Jawgap wrote: »

Are people really that surprised to find out that countries spy on each other?

To find out that content (not just meta data) is mass collected and that everything you do online, outside of Ireland, is hoovered up. Yes.

I have a problem with it when it's used for political motives for example. Not just to stop terrorism as they claim. There's a fine line and a reason why we weren't told.

Jawgap wrote: »

So you think we have influence over the UK and US governments???

Of course we do. Especially for a neutral country with just 4.6 million.

• The 10 Largest Technology Companies are located here, many US and UK owned. 25% of Europe's computers are now made in Ireland, look at Intel's operation.
• Helped action on the horse meat saga. In fact, Ireland first discovered it.
• First country to bring a tax on plastic bags. Guess what - other countries followed - including parts of the USA. Obama didn't visit Ireland for no reason.
• First country to ban cigarettes in the workplace - UK and the US followed.
• 9 of the top 10 pharma countries are located here - Medical Research is heavily important in Ireland.
• It's a member of the ECHR and the EU. Any EU country would have an influence on the UK and the US.
• Heavy Irish roots abroad. E.g. Australia & USA. Anything that is said by our Government is heard. A lot more than other countries of the same size.
• The USA use Shannon as a stop-over. Ireland could pull a cut to that at any stage.
• Ireland is the UK's top exporter

Jawgap

Mr. G wrote: »

I have a problem with it when it's used for political motives for example. Not just to stop terrorism as they claim. There's a fine line and a reason why we weren't told.



Of course we do. Especially for a neutral country with just 4.6 million.

• The 10 Largest Technology Companies are located here, many US and UK owned. 25% of Europe's computers are now made in Ireland, look at Intel's operation.
• Helped action on the horse meat saga. In fact, Ireland first discovered it.
• First country to bring a tax on plastic bags. Guess what - other countries followed - including parts of the USA. Obama didn't visit Ireland for no reason.
• First country to ban cigarettes in the workplace - UK and the US followed.
• 9 of the top 10 pharma countries are located here - Medical Research is heavily important in Ireland.
• It's a member of the ECHR and the EU. Any EU country would have an influence on the UK and the US.
• Heavy Irish roots abroad. E.g. Australia & USA. Anything that is said by our Government is heard. A lot more than other countries of the same size.
• The USA use Shannon as a stop-over. Ireland could pull a cut to that at any stage.
• Ireland is the UK's top exporter

I'm bothered by this too, but it's ridiculous to assume we have any influence over the US or UK beyond what they allow us.

Btw - is that list for real?? Do you really think any thing on that list matters in the realpolitik of international relations?

Plus the MNCs - IT & pharma - are only here for the tax breaks. As soon as the Jocks get control of their corporation tax we'll have a serious problem on our hands.

EDIT: btw, Obama visited here because of a deal he had with Dan Rooney - Rooney agreed to deliver Pennsylvania in return for Obama agreeing to make him ambassador and visiting during his tenure here.

YFlyer

When I'm about to take over the world. Will they leak that I looked at some porn on the web?

My name is URL

Gormley85 wrote: »

Once your not doing anything wrong it will just be looked at and then passed over.

So I guess you'd have no issue with a foreign government agency screening your phone calls or reading your mail either then?

Ever hear that Cardinal Richelieu quote "If one would give me six lines written by the hand of the most honest man, I would find something in them to have him hanged", referring to how a state government can find aspects in a person's life in order to prosecute or blackmail that individual?

Bruce Schneier put it well when he said "Too many wrongly characterize the debate as "security versus privacy". The real choice is liberty versus control."

The 'nothing to hide argument' is bullcrap and has been shown as such. Plenty of innocent people have had their lives destroyed because those monitoring them mistook what they were seeing.

http://thechronicleherald.ca/canada/58468-muslim-quip-led-terror-probe

Look at the above example. A man sends an innocent text message to his work colleagues at a trade show; telling them to "blow away" the competition. This man has "nothing to hide" yet his words resulted in him being arrested, and searched, which is bad enough. But the worst part is that he was no longer able to get a certificate of good conduct which is required for his work in finance. Although he is totally innocent, he still lost his livelihood.

Karl Stein

questionmark? wrote: »

I'm glad there is people out there keeping me safe.

Yep.

They keep us safe by invading foreign countries, killing tens of thousands of people, supporting all sorts of lunatic Islamofascists, dictators and despots and then they spy on us for our own good.

We're so lucky.

Son Of A Vidic

Chris___ wrote: »

GCHQ tapped Irish telecom cables

It wouldn't have surprised me 25 years ago and it doesn't surprise me today.

Capt'n Midnight

How is this news , common knowledge that this has been going on for years and years.

ECHELON is a joint venture between Australia, Canada, New Zealand, the United Kingdom, and the United States. Pretty much every every copper and fibre cable leaving these islands terminates in UK/US/Canada. ( France is also part of other shared intel. Add in telephone / comms / ISP's operating here owned by UK, US , Oz companies or those that can be leaned on heavily by those governments and they can pretty much get the raw feed with needing intercepts. And not all Irish internet traffic goes via INEX ,some of it is routed through the UK.

Then there's the router equipment. Stuff like cisco has back doors for law enforcement. Stuff from China phones homes to such an extent that the US and India just won't use Chinese kit anymore.

Israeli won't deny or confirm that any of tech developed there in software or hardware isn't phoning home either.


Anyway this from back in the 1980's

http://www.publicintegrity.org/1999/07/16/3342/how-britain-eavesdropped-dublin

The tower was craftily erected between two BT microwave radio towers carrying telephone traffic. The ETF was the ideal place to discreetly intercept international telephone calls of the Irish government, businessmen and those of suspected of involvement with IRA terrorism.

...

According to local residents, the site was manned 24 hours a day by a team of two to three people, until the start of 1998.

Besides the Capenhurst tower, communications to and from the Irish Republic were also intercepted at a similar but smaller GCHQ station in County Armagh. This intercepts microwave radio and other links between Dublin and Belfast.

A third GCHQ station at Bude, Cornwall, intercepts western satellite communications, including to and from Ireland.

hatrickpatrick

questionmark? wrote: »

I'm glad there is people out there keeping me safe. Look at the recent arrest of IRA members up North and those crazy ISIS followers in the UK. Imagine the carnage if there was no one info gathering on these people. They aint interested in Mary down the road texting John for a sneaky ride!

They're targeting activists, that's enough for me to despise them with a firey passion words can't describe.

http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-26049448
http://www.nbcnews.com/feature/edward-snowden-interview/exclusive-snowden-docs-show-uk-spies-attacked-anonymous-hackers-n21361
https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2014/02/24/jtrig-manipulation/

These people are not "keeping us safe". They are acting as agents for governments in order to disrupt and shut down dissidence and protest. That are not our friends.

Gormley85

My name is URL wrote: »

So I guess you'd have no issue with a foreign government agency screening your phone calls or reading your mail either then?

No I wouldnt. If the MI5 want to have a right of way to monitor calls/emails in Ireland to help with IRA as we saw this week then Im all for it. As a matter of fact, Im dissapointed that my own government werent on top of it and that we had to rely on the MI5 to come and tell us about the situation. I find that embarrassing.

My name is URL wrote: »

Ever hear that Cardinal Richelieu quote "If one would give me six lines written by the hand of the most honest man, I would find something in them to have him hanged", referring to how a state government can....

Yes. But Im not paranoid enough to believe that US/UK/my own Irish government are just waiting for an excuse to pounce and have me executed.

My name is URL wrote: »

The 'nothing to hide argument' is bullcrap and has been shown as such.

Ive yet to see a good counter argument for it to be honest.

My name is URL

Gormley85 wrote: »

Ive yet to see a good counter argument for it to be honest.

You haven't been looking hard enough then. Is a peer reviewed paper from one of the world’s leading experts in information privacy law any good?

http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=998565

Obviously won't be enough to change the mind of someone that's naive enough to believe that such data would not be used for nefarious purposes, or those who simply don't value the idea of privacy.

hatrickpatrick

Gormley85 wrote: »

Ive yet to see a good counter argument for it to be honest.

Did you read my post about activists and whistleblowers? Some of them definitely have something to hide as their activism and whistle blowing is often breaking the rules, but they are also defending the public against abuse in high office.
It's recently come out that RIPA in the UK was used to target lawyers and journalists as well. They all have "something to hide", but that doesn't mean the government should be allowed to know what it is they're hiding.

donvito99

I heard Denis O'Brien's behind this.

Capt'n Midnight

Don't forget that the CIA was and is big into industrial espionage. It's not just the government that benefit, corporate America does too.

Can't imagine GCHQ or any of the others being any different , and it looks good on the balance sheet and helps with the lobbyists.

Gormley85

My name is URL wrote: »

You haven't been looking hard enough then.

Honestly, about as much as I have ever heard on the subject was a TEDtalk and I was talking to a member of anonymous one night and we had a huge debate and then discussions I see on here the odd time.

My name is URL wrote: »

Is a peer reviewed paper from one of the world’s leading experts in information privacy law any good?

Again, honestly, I aint reading a full lenght paper on subject- but if you want to give me some bullet points Id be happy to debate with you/or even reconsider my opinion if there is a good point to be made.

Gormley85

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Did you read my post about activists and whistleblowers? Some of them definitely have something to hide as their activism and whistle blowing is often breaking the rules, but they are also defending the public against abuse in high office.
It's recently come out that RIPA in the UK was used to target lawyers and journalists as well. They all have "something to hide", but that doesn't mean the government should be allowed to know what it is they're hiding.

One of the links didnt work. But from a quick glance at the other two:

First one is how the CIA is bringing down Anoymous chatrooms. Personally I dont see the problem here. I mean arent anonymous the group that brought down amazon and paypal etc because of a protest? And to be blunt I dont see how a DOS attack on an anonymous's chatroom has any relevance to scanning everyones outgoing emails?

The other link (the bbc one) is reporting on the same subject but they are worried about how ethical it was to disrupt the anonymous chatroom and what if another legimate service was also disrupted. This doesnt really relate to the government looking at all outgoing emails

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

It's recently come out that RIPA in the UK was used to target lawyers and journalists as well. They all have "something to hide", but that doesn't mean the government should be allowed to know what it is they're hiding.

Again, I dont see the relevance here. What does the IRA being a hitman for hire have to do with monitoring everyones outgoing emails?