very high solicitor fees

willyk1980

Hi just got over a piab claim
solicitor give me price last week on two occasions of 3500
Then today his secratery tells me they have gone up to 5000
Due to physio visits x4 @280 euro
and engibeers report @ 1300 euro
i have no previous dealings with solicitors but this seems very expensive
or is it just me?

Pat Mustard

€3500 seems expensive, but it isn't clear what this is for. Is it for the Injuries Board work alone, or something else also?

I don't know why the cost of physiotherapy is being added to the bill. It doesn't make sense to me.

I suggest that you go your solicitor and ask for an explanation, and if you are not happy, take advice from another solicitor.

willyk1980

The Mustard wrote: »

€3500 seems expensive, but it isn't clear what this is for. Is it for the Injuries Board work alone, or something else also?

I don't know why the cost of physiotherapy is being added to the bill. It doesn't make sense to me.

I suggest that you go your solicitor and ask for an explanation, and if you are not happy, take advice from another solicitor.

The physio was arranged by my solicitor so i assumed that it and one visit to his doctor which he arranged would be included in his bill of 3500
now hes talking engineers reports at 1300
Im gonna go in and get it reduced he's taking the piss

nuac

Solicitors' fee quotations are usually just legal fees.

Report fees such as the engineers are separate matters.

The physio account if for treatment should be claimed as part of the damages

Pat Mustard

I've never heard of a solicitor arranging a course of physiotherapy for a client.

Rob Thomas

The Mustard wrote: »

I've never heard of a solicitor arranging a course of physiotherapy for a client.

Agreed. Even if it were the case that the client had no idea who to use as a physio, it's most likely that their doctor would recommend one.

kilp10

PIAB fee seems incredibly high. Usually around €2000+VAT or thereabouts?

Physio - €70 per visit???? What part of the country are you in? I'd definitely be ringing up the physio on a pretend inquiry and checking the fee. That's a fairly hefty treatment charge. Hope they're not charging more because there's a claim involved.... Sometimes I think a Solicitor may arrange if financials are a possible issue. These will be included in the damages part of the claim but maybe the solicitor wants payment back from you now rather than waiting for however long.

Engineer's report - 1300. Not sure on this one. I just had one done and I think the fee will be about €600. Not payable unless there's a successful outcome.

Physio and engineer's report would be extra to the Solicitor's PIAB fee. Any medical reports etc will also be extra.

However, the 3500 does seem extremely high in comparison to other Solicitors. It might be worth checking about switching.

willyk1980

Rob Thomas wrote: »

Agreed. Even if it were the case that the client had no idea who to use as a physio, it's most likely that their doctor would recommend one.

My solicitor sent me to see his doctor (would not
use my regular doctor) it was her who then referred me to physio
the injuries board did include this in settlement
and thats why i assumed it was included in his first price of 3500

RainyDay

Is this an up-front quote, or a fee for work already done? If the latter, did you get any up-front quote?

And forgive my ignorance, but what is 'piab claim' - isn't the whole point of piab that you don't need a solicitor?

kilp10

How an earth does a solicitor get to tell you what Dr you go to? Saying that, seeing the quality and level of info of the medical reports that come out from GPs, it might be understandable...

In relation to PIAB and need/ no need for a solicitor, in straightforward claims and if you're positive you're on the ball, it would be possible. But I'm not sure any claim can be guaranteed to be straightforward, mine definitely turned as complicated as you can get. So although I'm confident enough that I'd on the ball, I'm very glad I engaged a solicitor to deal with it. Takes the stress off completely and in effect, I'm paying them to make sure that nothing gets missed in the process.

willyk1980

RainyDay wrote: »

Is this an up-front quote, or a fee for work already done? If the latter, did you get any up-front quote?

And forgive my ignorance, but what is 'piab claim' - isn't the whole point of piab that you don't need a solicitor?

these fees are for work already done
i needed a solicitor as there were questions over who exactly was responsible for my accident
seems dumb on my part but we did not discuss payment at any time up until last week when
the case was settled.i just want to make sure im not getting ripped off if the fees are justified
i have no problem paying.

December2012

So are these fees to the solicitor or is the extra to the Physio / engineer?

And are you including vat?
3500 less vat of 23% = €2800 approx

3500
280
1200

---

5080

willyk1980

December2012 wrote: »

So are these fees to the solicitor or is the extra to the Physio / engineer?

And are you including vat?
3500 less vat of 23% = €2800 approx

3500
280
1200

---

5080

3500 included vat
He didnt mention the engineer or physio and i did not ask so maybe its jst coming back to bite me now im gonna get him to give me a print out of all expenses and go from there

RainyDay

willyk1980 wrote: »

these fees are for work already done
i needed a solicitor as there were questions over who exactly was responsible for my accident
seems dumb on my part but we did not discuss payment at any time up until last week when
the case was settled.i just want to make sure im not getting ripped off if the fees are justified
i have no problem paying.

No, it doesn't seem dumb on your part - many people rush into these things, don't take time to shop around, and don't check it out up front - particularly when they are dealing with stressful issues, like injuries or family breakup.

That's one of the main reasons why solicitors are legally obliged to issue a 'Section 68 letter' to their clients up front outlining a fee estimate. It sounds like you didn't get this letter, so this is a major card for you to hold when negotiating the fees. Look him (not his secretary) in the eye and ask him where is the S.68 letter.

In terms of the physio, was it the case that you couldn't afford to pay for the physio up front, so he directed you to a 'connected' physio who would provide services on tick, on condition that he deducted the bill from your settlement?

That's not an unreasonable approach, and may well have been to your benefit, but should have been explained at the time. All the same, €280 per visit sounds very, very expensive - how long was each visit? Did the physio have to write up reports for your assessment?

willyk1980

RainyDay wrote: »

No, it doesn't seem dumb on your part - many people rush into these things, don't take time to shop around, and don't check it out up front - particularly when they are dealing with stressful issues, like injuries or family breakup.

That's one of the main reasons why solicitors are legally obliged to issue a 'Section 68 letter' to their clients up front outlining a fee estimate. It sounds like you didn't get this letter, so this is a major card for you to hold when negotiating the fees. Look him (not his secretary) in the eye and ask him where is the S.68 letter.

In terms of the physio, was it the case that you couldn't afford to pay for the physio up front, so he directed you to a 'connected' physio who would provide services on tick, on condition that he deducted the bill from your settlement?

That's not an unreasonable approach, and may well have been to your benefit, but should have been explained at the time. All the same, €280 per visit sounds very, very expensive - how long was each visit? Did the physio have to write up reports for your assessment?

It was 280Euro for 4 visits (70 euro each) for physio
I did not receive any letter relating to fees at the start of this
So I will mention it to him and see what happens
Thanks

davo10

willyk1980 wrote: »

It was 280Euro for 4 visits (70 euro each) for physio
I did not receive any letter relating to fees at the start of this
So I will mention it to him and see what happens
Thanks

Did you actually pay the doctor and physio yourself at the time you received treatment?

Pro Hoc Vice

Its simple the Solicitor billed 3500 inc VAT as agreed, then he paid from his office account bills on behalf of the Client, 280 medical and 1000+ for engineer.

Its funny to me that people thin their solicitor should pay the clients bills due for the clients case.

While 3500 inc VAT may be a tad high for PIAB application that depends on how much work was done, while a eng report is not strictly needed for PIAB application getting the report at this stage may have assisted the insurance company agreeing to the award.

Also why should the solicitor pay 280 for client then get PIAB to award that 280 to client and from my reading of this the client wanted to keep that 280 even though he never paid it.

So OP you must pay Eng report and Medical fees paid on your behalf, and you agreed to 3500 inc VAT which the solicitor charged, so due and owing pay it and say thank you to the solicitor for doing a good job, instead of asking him to pay your bills.

RainyDay

Pro Hoc Vice wrote: »

Its simple the Solicitor billed 3500 inc VAT as agreed, then he paid from his office account bills on behalf of the Client, 280 medical and 1000+ for engineer.

Its funny to me that people thin their solicitor should pay the clients bills due for the clients case.

While 3500 inc VAT may be a tad high for PIAB application that depends on how much work was done, while a eng report is not strictly needed for PIAB application getting the report at this stage may have assisted the insurance company agreeing to the award.

Also why should the solicitor pay 280 for client then get PIAB to award that 280 to client and from my reading of this the client wanted to keep that 280 even though he never paid it.

So OP you must pay Eng report and Medical fees paid on your behalf, and you agreed to 3500 inc VAT which the solicitor charged, so due and owing pay it and say thank you to the solicitor for doing a good job, instead of asking him to pay your bills.

Sorry, but where did the client agree to the €3,500 fee?

Pro Hoc Vice

RainyDay wrote: »

Sorry, but where did the client agree to the €3,500 fee?

"The physio was arranged by my solicitor so i assumed that it and one visit to his doctor which he arranged would be included in his bill of 3500
now hes talking engineers reports at 1300
Im gonna go in and get it reduced he's taking the piss"

RainyDay

Pro Hoc Vice wrote: »

"The physio was arranged by my solicitor so i assumed that it and one visit to his doctor which he arranged would be included in his bill of 3500
now hes talking engineers reports at 1300
Im gonna go in and get it reduced he's taking the piss"

Perhaps you missed my question, or quoted the wrong thing in your answer. I asked "where did the client agree to the €3,500 fee?". There is no reference in the bit you quoted to an agreed fee or a fee being agreed or notified.

If you have read the full thread, you will see that the solicitor failed in his legal obligation to give the client a S.68 letter before starting work, so how could the fee be agreed, given that it wasn't notified to the client until after the work was done?

hullaballoo

RainyDay wrote: »

Perhaps you missed my question, or quoted the wrong thing in your answer. I asked "where did the client agree to the €3,500 fee?". There is no reference in the bit you quoted to an agreed fee or a fee being agreed or notified.

If you have read the full thread, you will see that the solicitor failed in his legal obligation to give the client a S.68 letter before starting work, so how could the fee be agreed, given that it wasn't notified to the client until after the work was done?

I think the OP has implied that he accepted a fee of €3,500.

I agree that the solicitor seems to have fudged the real cost to the client but the €3,500 does seem to have been accepted.

RainyDay

hullaballoo wrote: »

I think the OP has implied that he accepted a fee of €3,500.

I agree that the solicitor seems to have fudged the real cost to the client but the €3,500 does seem to have been accepted.

Perhaps I'm missing something, but where specifically did the OP imply that he accepted this fee?

Pro Hoc Vice

RainyDay wrote: »

Perhaps I'm missing something, but where specifically did the OP imply that he accepted this fee?

My reading of the OP's post imply his acceptance of a few of 3500 based on my reading he assumed all outside costs to be included. It's fair to say it's not clear but to me at some point he agreed a fee.

willyk1980

Pro Hoc Vice wrote: »

Its simple the Solicitor billed 3500 inc VAT as agreed, then he paid from his office account bills on behalf of the Client, 280 medical and 1000+ for engineer.

Its funny to me that people thin their solicitor should pay the clients bills due for the clients case.

While 3500 inc VAT may be a tad high for PIAB application that depends on how much work was done, while a eng report is not strictly needed for PIAB application getting the report at this stage may have assisted the insurance company agreeing to the award.

Also why should the solicitor pay 280 for client then get PIAB to award that 280 to client and from my reading of this the client wanted to keep that 280 even though he never paid it.

So OP you must pay Eng report and Medical fees paid on your behalf, and you agreed to 3500 inc VAT which the solicitor charged, so due and owing pay it and say thank you to the solicitor for doing a good job, instead of asking him to pay your bills.

Im not asking anyone to pay my bills but surely this should have all been explained to me by him
i have no receipt or invoices from engineer or physio and the amounts he says they are charging are very high

RainyDay

Pro Hoc Vice wrote: »

My reading of the OP's post imply his acceptance of a few of 3500 based on my reading he assumed all outside costs to be included. It's fair to say it's not clear but to me at some point he agreed a fee.

The OP does say "but we did not discuss payment at any time up until last week when the case was settled", so it is clear that he didn't agree any fee before the work was done.

It looks like the solicitor told him last week, after the work was done, that his fee was €3,500. Perhaps the OP didn't flinch too much at this, on the understanding that it was an overall fee. But apparently, this amount didn't include outgoings, which are increasing the total by about 40%.

So we have a solicitor who;

1) Never gave the client a S.68 letter (as he is legally required to do)
2) When asked about the fee, quoted a price exclusive of outgoings, when he should have had a good understanding that the cost of the outgoings were very significant in relation to the overall fee.

Very poor practice by the solicitor, it seems.

willyk1980

hullaballoo wrote: »

I think the OP has implied that he accepted a fee of €3,500.

I agree that the solicitor seems to have fudged the real cost to the client but the €3,500 does seem to have been accepted.

The fee of 3500 was put to me as a final fee last week i accepted this in the belief it covered all expenses including physio and engineer i was not informed at that time that these bills were outstanding and that he would be looking for an extra 1580 euro to cover them thats ehat annoying i

?Cee?view

willyk1980 wrote: »

Im not asking anyone to pay my bills but surely this should have all been explained to me by him
i have no receipt or invoices from engineer or physio and the amounts he says they are charging are very high

Just ask for a copy of the engineer and physios' invoices. The solicitor should have them on file.

70 euro per physio visit doesn't seem excessive to me.

As to the Engineer, noone here can know what work was involved for that fee.

hullaballoo

RainyDay wrote: »

Perhaps I'm missing something, but where specifically did the OP imply that he accepted this fee?

The fact that myself and PHV have both used the terms implied/seems etc. is what's important. The OP doesn't expressly state that he had accepted the €3,500 bill but reading between the lines (taking the implications of his posts) suggests he was prepared to pay the €3,500 "bill".

Edit: I see the OP has now confirmed this so that's the end of it really.

RainyDay

hullaballoo wrote: »

The fact that myself and PHV have both used the terms implied/seems etc. is what's important. The OP doesn't expressly state that he had accepted the €3,500 bill but reading between the lines (taking the implications of his posts) suggests he was prepared to pay the €3,500 "bill".

Edit: I see the OP has now confirmed this so that's the end of it really.

Sorry, but you're being very selective. The OP confirmed that " i accepted this in the belief it covered all expenses". He didn't accept it as a figure for the solicitor's own fee at all, which should of course have been quoted up front in a S.68 letter - right?

hullaballoo

RainyDay wrote: »

Sorry, but you're being very selective. The OP confirmed that " i accepted this in the belief it covered all expenses". He didn't accept it as a figure for the solicitor's own fee at all, which should of course have been quoted up front in a S.68 letter - right?

I don't disagree with you. I haven't commented on the money over and above the €3,500. All I've said is that the OP implied he accepted €3,500 as the solicitor's fee. He has confirmed that he accepted that amount (albeit in the belief that it was all-inclusive.)

It seems to me that there was a breakdown in communication and that annoyance has festered its way into this thread.

Regarding the s. 68 letter, we don't know the ins and outs of that so commenting on that is pure speculation.

willyk1980

RainyDay wrote: »

Sorry, but you're being very selective. The OP confirmed that " i accepted this in the belief it covered all expenses". He didn't accept it as a figure for the solicitor's own fee at all, which should of course have been quoted up front in a S.68 letter - right?

spoke to my solicitor yestarday
his fee is 3500 (+ vat 21%) final bill = 4235
physio sessions and report =280
engineers report =1300

so the final amount that will be taken from my settlement is 5815 euro
i have to go in and sign off on it when the cheque arrives i told him i am not happy
and will be looking for a reduction
i just cant believe that when i sat in his office last week and asked for a final figure
he did not include vat , physio , or engineers report in his total
im not a mug but i trusted him all the way through this case but now i feel im being shafted
this was a simole case i tripped over something and got injured
my solicitor found out who was responsible and they admitted responsibility
the engineer took some photos of where i fell
piab assessed case and made award that was accepted by all
im not an expert on law but i only saw my solicitor twice in the last 2 and half years
so i dont know how his fee could be 3500 euro so ill go in and negotiate and see what i can get off before signing off on it

Johngoose

If you are receiving €100,000 in damages I wouldn't be too upset.But if it's more like €20,000 in damages I would be pretty pissed off.Id say it could be excessive if we are talking about a small claim.But that said if solicitors are arranging and covering the cost of physio,etc., you are putting yourself at their mercy and making expenses unclear.

salamanca22

willyk1980 wrote: »

spoke to my solicitor yestarday
his fee is 3500 (+ vat 21%) final bill = 4235
physio sessions and report =280
engineers report =1300

so the final amount that will be taken from my settlement is 5815 euro
i have to go in and sign off on it when the cheque arrives i told him i am not happy
and will be looking for a reduction
i just cant believe that when i sat in his office last week and asked for a final figure
he did not include vat , physio , or engineers report in his total
im not a mug but i trusted him all the way through this case but now i feel im being shafted
this was a simole case i tripped over something and got injured
my solicitor found out who was responsible and they admitted responsibility
the engineer took some photos of where i fell
piab assessed case and made award that was accepted by all
im not an expert on law but i only saw my solicitor twice in the last 2 and half years
so i dont know how his fee could be 3500 euro so ill go in and negotiate and see what i can get off before signing off on it

Without knowing how much work your solicitor has done I can say that is a crazy amount. I had an accident myself which required my solicitor to work a lot with the insurance company as there were a few complications. In the 2 years my case was ongoing I was also in his office a total of 16 times. My final bill was for €2500 inc vat.

I would definitely look at getting that amount taxed.

?Cee?view

salamanca22 wrote: »

Without knowing how much work your solicitor has done I can say that is a crazy amount.

How can that statement make any sense?

You saw your solicitor 16 times. The OP saw his twice. How does this in any way indicate the amount of work the solicitor has done "behind the scenes"?

RainyDay

hullaballoo wrote: »

Regarding the s. 68 letter, we don't know the ins and outs of that so commenting on that is pure speculation.

We know the OP didn't get one. What other 'ins and outs' could there be?

willyk1980 wrote: »

so i dont know how his fee could be 3500 euro so ill go in and negotiate and see what i can get off before signing off on it

Yes, big negotiation called for. Call him out on his failure to send you a S.68 letter up front, and his failure to include VAT and outgoings when talking to you last week.

Interesting to see the rush of others (possibly those 'in the trade') to defend the solicitor, despite the fact that he failed in his legal obligation to send the S.68 letter?

hullaballoo

RainyDay wrote: »

We know the OP didn't get one. What other 'ins and outs' could there be?...Interesting to see the rush of others (possibly those 'in the trade') to defend the solicitor, despite the fact that he failed in his legal obligation to send the S.68 letter?

Well now, considering your insistence that other point to where the OP said he'd accepted the €3,500 bill, now you're putting words in his mouth. He doesn't say he didn't get the s. 68 letter anywhere.

Some solicitors discharge their obligations under s. 68 by getting new clients to sign a terms of business document that sets out the fee structure. It may be in the small print, but it is sufficient to discharge the s. 68 obligations.

RainyDay

hullaballoo wrote: »

Well now, considering your insistence that other point to where the OP said he'd accepted the €3,500 bill, now you're putting words in his mouth. He doesn't say he didn't get the s. 68 letter anywhere.

willyk1980 wrote: »

It was 280Euro for 4 visits (70 euro each) for physio
I did not receive any letter relating to fees at the start of this
So I will mention it to him and see what happens
Thanks

?????

hullaballoo wrote: »

Some solicitors discharge their obligations under s. 68 by getting new clients to sign a terms of business document that sets out the fee structure. It may be in the small print, but it is sufficient to discharge the s. 68 obligations.

That would only apply "where the provision of particulars of the actual charges or an estimate of such charges is not in the circumstances possible or practicable" - right? Difficult to see why an estimate would not be possible or practicable in a case like this.

OP - If you want to seriously dispute the bill, you have the right to submit it for 'taxing' (i.e. independent review by the taxing master). It might help your negotiation if you make it clear that you are holding this option in reserve. On the other hand, it might pi$$ the guy off completely, so you'll have to judge for yourself whether it is appropriate to play this car.

hullaballoo

RainyDay wrote: »

?????

Sorry I shouldn't have mistakenly referred to it as a letter. That might confuse people into thinking they have to receive the document in the post. Not the case.

RainyDay

THis article might interest the OP;

http://www.independent.ie/business/personal-finance/a-solicitors-failure-to-outline-fees-could-see-them-breaking-the-law-25891163.html

billy few mates

When did it become a requirement to issue a S68 letter...?

When I bought my house about ten years ago I met with the solicitor at the beginning, I asked him how much his costs were going to be and he told me verbally "approx three thousand".
When I got the bill after the sale it was for five thousand, I queried this with him and initially he said he indicated 'between three and five thousand' then he suggested 'five thousand was approximately three thousand' before eventually telling me that 'it involved a lot more work than he expected hence the higher amount'. I got no S68 letter at any time and the only indication of the fee was that 3K that I had written down at the time.

dhidra

The fee seems very high. My solicitor charges €1,500+VAT for PIAB cases.
Were the Physio and Engineers report not included in your special damages?

RainyDay

billy few mates wrote: »

When did it become a requirement to issue a S68 letter...?

When I bought my house about ten years ago I met with the solicitor at the beginning, I asked him how much his costs were going to be and he told me verbally "approx three thousand".
When I got the bill after the sale it was for five thousand, I queried this with him and initially he said he indicated 'between three and five thousand' then he suggested 'five thousand was approximately three thousand' before eventually telling me that 'it involved a lot more work than he expected hence the higher amount'. I got no S68 letter at any time and the only indication of the fee was that 3K that I had written down at the time.

About 10 years before you bought your house

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1994/en/act/pub/0027/sec0068.html

kilp10

kilp10 wrote: »

Engineer's report - 1300. Not sure on this one. I just had one done and I think the fee will be about €600. Not payable unless there's a successful outcome.

I hadn't realised that expert witnesses also operated on a 'no foal-no fee' basis.

They are supposed to be objective and this, apart from encouraging the rampant compo culture and ambulance chasing, also brings their respective professions into disrepute.

Pat Mustard

kilp10 wrote: »

Engineer's report - 1300. Not sure on this one. I just had one done and I think the fee will be about €600. Not payable unless there's a successful outcome.

There are engineers and 'litigation' engineers. The engineers that tend to be used by solicitors for the purposes of litigation tend to be very good at identifying issues and setting them out clearly in reports which are easy to understand, with accompanying photos. These guys are usually pretty plausible performers in the witness box.

Some of the reports produced by engineers other than the usual litigation engineers can be hit and miss, with a tendency towards miss. I've seen some of the reports produced by some of those non-specialists and I've been quite unimpressed on several occasions.

€1300 for an engineering inspection, report and photos is common enough, and have not heard of any of the good, experienced litigation engineers doing this for €600.

nuac

The Mustard wrote: »

There are engineers and 'litigation' engineers. The engineers that tend to be used by solicitors for the purposes of litigation tend to be very good at identifying issues and setting them out clearly in reports which are easy to understand, with accompanying photos. These guys are usually pretty plausible performers in the witness box.

Some of the reports produced by engineers other than the usual litigation engineers can be hit and miss, with a tendency towards miss. I've seen some of the reports produced by some of those non-specialists and I've been quite unimpressed on several occasions.

€1300 for an engineering inspection, report and photos is common enough, and have not heard of any of the good, experienced litigation engineers doing this for €600.

Agreed 100%