AJ Styles injures another with a Styles Clash

rovert

MOD: Not for the fainted hearted

https://twitter.com/enuhito_eng/status/537235506715557888

gimmick

Always felt the styles clash was reckless and dangerous.

gerrybbadd

Is that 3 that have been injured by this move in the past 3 months now? Its a **** move anyhow, think it's time AJ gave it up

Scavenger XIII

Wasn't that posted a few weeks back and Yoshi claimed to be fine - or is this another incident?

Rjd2

gimmick wrote: »

Always felt the styles clash was reckless and dangerous.

Michelle Mc Cool never had a problem performing it. :P

Ageyev

Scavenger XIII wrote: »

Wasn't that posted a few weeks back and Yoshi claimed to be fine - or is this another incident?

Wrestlers in Japan put on a poker face and deny being injured. Hard men and the strong style and that.

Riddle101

In reference to the Styles Clash, just check this out. It look like a Styles Clash from the top rope. Such a stupid thing to do.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xbHIl6aUNiA

leggo

rovert wrote: »

MOD: Not for the fainted hearted

https://twitter.com/enuhito_eng/status/537235506715557888

We had this discussion months ago and a lot of people were defending Styles, saying it's the fault of the receiver. I think this is now a case of three strikes and he's officially talking ****e. His move is too dangerous and he's an inconsiderate **** continuing to give it. His value will drop to nil once his run in New Japan starts to stagnate, so hopefully that'll be the end of him. The business has been forced to evolve, for the first time in its existence, into a sensible one where major promotions look out for their talent. He's the anti-thesis of this.

We need to kick out the 'macho' stigma once and for all, along with indie kids performing 'kewl mooves!1!1' they can't guarantee others' safety with. Weird as it may be to say, at this stage Styles is a relic that belongs in a high school gym back in the year 2002.

gnfnrhead

Styles Clash, like the majority of moves, is safe assuming the opponent knows what he is doing. Too many wrestlers won't ask for a trail run beforehand and will just assume they know what to do. Tucking in is usually a good idea, but for the Styles Clash it is very, very bad. It's a case of his opponents not knowing how to take the move and likely not asking for that trial run before hand. Styles did the exact same move for over ten years in TNA and I only recall one instance of it going wrong (Kazarian).

leggo

gnfnrhead wrote: »

Styles Clash, like the majority of moves, is safe assuming the opponent knows what he is doing. Too many wrestlers won't ask for a trail run beforehand and will just assume they know what to do. Tucking in is usually a good idea, but for the Styles Clash it is very, very bad. It's a case of his opponents not knowing how to take the move and likely not asking for that trial run before hand. Styles did the exact same move for over ten years in TNA and I only recall one instance of it going wrong (Kazarian).

This isn't meant as an insult, just a truth, but I think you're being a mark for AJ here. We've gone through all of this a couple months ago and, fact is, another neck has been broken. Moves aren't deemed safe by it being completed successfully the majority of times, they're deemed safe by whether or not severe injury will occur if it goes wrong. How many thousands of piledrivers took place before everyone copped on that it was an unnecessary risk?

This breaks necks if it goes wrong. It's not safe.

Riddle101

Riddle101 wrote: »

In reference to the Styles Clash, just check this out. It look like a Styles Clash from the top rope. Such a stupid thing to do.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xbHIl6aUNiA

It doesn't look like a styles clash. Other than weapon-use that's the most retarded thing I've seen in a ring.

Stereomaniac

That was a pretty ridiculous move to attempt. But I never knew Matt Sydal had a brother in wrestling.

Riddle101

Deleted User wrote: »

It doesn't look like a styles clash. Other than weapon-use that's the most retarded thing I've seen in a ring.

I don't know someone on another forum called it a Moonsault Styles Clash or something. MIght have been a joke though.

Anyway, apparently your man who took the move kicked out of it as well. So not did he take a move like that, but it didn't even finish the match. I mean when you consider the psychology behind it, it should be a match ender move. Either that they're just a bunch of spot monkeys tbh. Typical indy wrestlers.

Well it's a completely unprotected face-shot to the mat from a height and with rotation. I can't see how it's possible to pull it off "safely". There's botches and there's idiocy.

Palo Alto

How I feel about Jimmy Jacobs power-bombing BJ Whitmer from the top rope. No wonder he has spinal stenosis.

leggo

It's ridiculous in 2014. I mean, you could kind of forgive it in 2002. The TLC matches and so on had just happened, wrestling was going through a revolution as a sport and a natural process of that is people trying risky new things to test out what's possible. Even when I started training ('04-ish), it was seen as somewhat of a badge of honour, a prerequisite for cocky kids who thought they were going onto big things, to own a pair of kickpads and do an assortment of springboard whatchamacallits. Basically do everything that has become a stock joke for 'indie wrestling' nowadays.

But we know so much more now than we did even a decade ago. There was little to no work being done on the area of concussions and their lasting effects back then (which only started to gain momentum after Benoit). Conventional wisdom has won out: everyone and their mother knows the 'cool' thing to do now is to work smart and safe in the name of having a longer career. We've come full circle and it's about learning to work again rather than learning how to do a buncha cool tricks. Doing fancy moves like Canadian Destroyers doesn't 'make' a guy anymore, in fact you're almost seen as a bit over-compensatory if you try and do a Petey Williams now. So that's what makes any question of using the Styles Clash a bit of a ridiculous one to me at this stage. NO move is too sacred to sacrifice a risk of safety anymore. That era is over with. It shows how much AJ is still stuck in that 'indie mode' that he thinks he can't wrestle without it despite several broken necks happening on his watch. **** man, Undertaker and Kane got on fine when they were told Tombstones were a no-go (another move that hundreds took without injury that were deemed unsafe, by the way) and only used them sparingly, if you're that good why can't you do the same?

And here's the main thing that suck about injuries: AJ is still going to get paid. He's going to go out there and be able to do the same thing, night after night, with no consequence despite his stubbornness endangering the safety of others. Roderick Strong wasn't, Lionheart wasn't, Tatsu won't. They've to sit at home and not even be able to work a real job now because they trusted him, and he's out there using the exposure he has because of his 15 minutes of relevance to blame them for not being able to do a 'simple' move. It's bollocks, and in no other industry in the world would it be permitted. I hope the indies start to follow the likes of WWE's example on this and force him to either cop on or move on.

Stereomaniac

Well, someone said earlier here that Yoshi didn't take the move properly. That is the biggest load of crap I have ever heard in my life. It is A.J Styles' responsibility both as a human being, and as a professional to ensure that his partner knows what they're doing when they go out there. Yoshi Tatsu has provided me with more entertainment over the years than him anyway. I just don't see how he could be so idiotic and not take the necessary precautions. Professional wrestling has taken a long time to come up to speed in terms of health and safety, which kind of makes sense to me seeing as how it grew out of an itinerant community which operated under their own laws and customs (at least that is my understanding of it). But for me, the turning point is really as far back as SummerSlam 1997. After Owen Hart broke Steve Austin's neck, I feel people should have made an effort to be more careful with each other. Okay, for sure, Mick Foley still came off of the cage. But I think anyone who lasted in the main event scene in the years following that was a) very lucky and b) didn't work an over the top style and avoided serious high impact moves that could damage the spine. Then again, what I wrote could all be a heap of crap. But man, A.J will never be able to make the proud statement Bret did.

Palo Alto

leggo?

LEGEND.

Stereomaniac

Has A.J Styles been working since this thing happened, and has anything been heard from Yoshi Tatsu? People are probably excited to be working with this guy when promoters book him.

Sorry but what's so awful about the Styles Clash? It has always struck me as a pretty harmless move and if it's 2 injuries in a couple of months then why was it fine for a decade before that apart from one guy?

Comparisons to the Canadian Destroyer are funny as well. It's a move done by the recipient that would take an amazing amount of effort to make it dangerous.

Ageyev

It's dangerous because you are upside-down, have your arms locked in the guys legs and have to lift your head in an unnatural direction which, considering gravity, I'd imagine is a difficult thing to do much less remember at the end of a match.

jaykhunter

Deleted User wrote: »

Sorry but what's so awful about the Styles Clash? It has always struck me as a pretty harmless move and if it's 2 injuries in a couple of months then why was it fine for a decade before that apart from one guy?

The injuries come about as it goes against everything wrestlers are taught (i.e. tuck your chin in). It hasn't been harmless, injuries happen every few years in TNA with it, but soon after he left TNA, on the indies it was like 3 in 3 months.

I know there was a huge hoopla about the last injury. I know he's in the right (wrestlers need to be able to perform esp. signature moves correctly) but the move looks like sh**, and for the sake of not injuring absent-minded wrestlers, I hope he removes it from his arsenal.

leggo

Deleted User wrote: »

Sorry but what's so awful about the Styles Clash? It has always struck me as a pretty harmless move and if it's 2 injuries in a couple of months then why was it fine for a decade before that apart from one guy?

Comparisons to the Canadian Destroyer are funny as well. It's a move done by the recipient that would take an amazing amount of effort to make it dangerous.

There was no comparison to the Canadian Destroyer, you misread the post. Go back and read the point again.

And he's broken 3 necks with it now in 2014 alone.

brianregan09

Some blame has to land at the feet of the road agents , Ie the guys that put the matchs together with the wreslters like surely with a move that can go wrong so easily it'd have been shown to the guy 100 times how to take it before actually taking it , and not only that but shouldn't someone step in then if hes injuring people i think NJPW are as much to blame for letting him continue to use it

gnfnrhead

Ageyev wrote: »

It's dangerous because you are upside-down, have your arms locked in the guys legs and have to lift your head in an unnatural direction which, considering gravity, I'd imagine is a difficult thing to do much less remember at the end of a match.

All of that falls on the person taking the move, not the one giving it. Styles can't do any more to protect his opponent. His knees take a lot of the impact and he takes his opponents full weight. Their head is maybe a foot off the ground so again, assuming the guy taking the move knows how to take it, injuries won't happen. I only recall one instance of it going wrong in over 10 years of doing the move in TNA. Now suddenly it's a dangerous move because a couple of guys didn't know/forgot how to take it? The Styles Clash isn't to blame, his opponents not knowing what to do is.

Bounty Hunter

gnfnrhead wrote: »

All of that falls on the person taking the move, not the one giving it. Styles can't do any more to protect his opponent. His knees take a lot of the impact and he takes his opponents full weight. Their head is maybe a foot off the ground so again, assuming the guy taking the move knows how to take it, injuries won't happen. I only recall one instance of it going wrong in over 10 years of doing the move in TNA. Now suddenly it's a dangerous move because a couple of guys didn't know/forgot how to take it? The Styles Clash isn't to blame, his opponents not knowing what to do is.

That may be true but either way if 3 guys have broken their necks this year due to the move (is that really the case?) then I think he should stop it even if the blame doesn't fall at his feet.

Insect Overlord

Just to play Devil's advocate for a little bit, should HHH be made to stop using the Pedigree too? It is, similarly, a face-plant without control of one's arms.

Palo Alto

No; it doesn't have the added effect of placing you upside down, distorting your sense of space.

mrkiscool2

Very well reasoned and worded argument against the style clash by Lionheart

I'll make the assumption he sees this somehow so please read and share... I'd like to openly address him...

Firstly, I hope things are well for you and family... I wanted to write you because I feel it's important someone speak up in a more formal and diplomatic manner, as opposed to simply throwing abuse via anonymous social media ramblings...

Here's the truth... The move is not directly dangerous... It's a simple move in principle... Arms and legs locked, you fall forward, guy looks up/back, easy... The Styles Clash 'on paper' is a fairly safe and basic process...

That said, what is dangerous, is the instinctual reaction of your opponent... The wrestler taking the move, who like any wrestler taking any move, their safety and welfare is the priority...

Without ANY injuries, it could be argued that the mechanics of the move are unnatural, and injury could easily happen due to the physical restrictions and instinctual habits of the recipient... The numbers now are surely too great to even call it an argument?

I'm more than happy to be educated on my statistics, but there can be no move in wrestling history that carries more (documented) serious and potentially career threatening injuries than this... This, is what makes the move dangerous, whether indirectly or not...

Thus far, more specifically the last 12 months, several performers, actual experienced athletes, have been injured with this, 2 of them now with broken necks... The question I want to put to you honestly is, what does it take? What will it actually take for you to stop using this move, at the very least on an independent level, with people not necessarily exposed to the experience of working with you and taking the move semi regularly... How honestly will you feel the day you receive the news that the man you just wrestled has a broken neck and will never walk again? Statistically, that day is coming... It is a mathematical certainty...

I take this opportunity now, to openly and publicly beg you... Please, stop using the Styles Clash... You are unquestionably one of the greatest in ring performers of our time, I truly believe that... But the time is now, to put all pride, ego, blame aside, and acknowledge that irrelevant of fault, circumstance or anything else, the move is a direct risk and a danger to the safety and well being of your fellow wrestler...

All the best.

A

leggo

An File wrote: »

Just to play Devil's advocate for a little bit, should HHH be made to stop using the Pedigree too? It is, similarly, a face-plant without control of one's arms.

The Pedigree is a face bump, you're falling forward and you're cushioned between the guy's legs so your face or head isn't going to even hit the mat 99 times out of 100. I could teach you to do a face bump in about 10 minutes, they're a piece of piss. Easiest bump by far. Sure your hands are restricted but if you've any trust in the guy giving the move they'll protect you. You could be a dick and try and hurt someone with it, but even then it would be difficult to do so.

Lionheart summed up the problems with the Styles Clash perfectly there. In theory it's easy and can be done 10 times out of 10 safely on one particular day. The problem is that it goes against your natural training and there's literally no margin for error. It'd be difficult to break your neck on a hiptoss or suplex if they got ****ed up (that would require both guys to be untrained in protecting themselves and others or a freak accident). The Styles Clash breaks your neck if you do what's natural to your training in wrestling. Roderick Strong, Lionheart and Tatsu aren't inexperienced indie kids who'd fawn over AJ and be afraid to ask for a run through. They all know how to wrestle, made errors that can happen to anyone on any day, and the move offers so little protection to them that doing so broke their neck. Therefore the move is dangerous.

Stereomaniac

From what I can see, and I am by no means experience in the ring, it is a move which takes a lot of understanding between the two performers to execute safely. A full-time environment, such as TNA lends itself to this more than the indies, where AJ is probably working with different people every single time he performs. I don't see how he has allowed to go as far as 3 casualties of this thing though, would you not learn after one, or at least two? The pedigree looks more painful than I would say that it actually is. In the last 19 years, I have often laughed at how Hunter's opponents' heads rarely seem to make contact with the mat upon receiving the move. However, he has never put anyone out of action with the move to the best of my knowledge, so it surely is safer than the clash.

Palo Alto

The hypocrisy when considered with AJ's staunch christian beliefs also grates with me a lot.

Ageyev

gnfnrhead wrote: »

All of that falls on the person taking the move, not the one giving it. Styles can't do any more to protect his opponent. His knees take a lot of the impact and he takes his opponents full weight. Their head is maybe a foot off the ground so again, assuming the guy taking the move knows how to take it, injuries won't happen. I only recall one instance of it going wrong in over 10 years of doing the move in TNA. Now suddenly it's a dangerous move because a couple of guys didn't know/forgot how to take it? The Styles Clash isn't to blame, his opponents not knowing what to do is.

Would that hold up as a defense in court if he kills someone?

Ageyev

Ageyev wrote: »

Would that hold up as a defense in court if he kills someone?

Has he been done for assault yet?

DM_7

I have no wrestling training but it sounds reasonable to me to that its a dangerous move. Any move that involves going against your instincts, as put in place with years of training has to be a bad idea.

Palo Alto

It would probably be a better defence if criminal (gross) negligence was alleged but would be a relatively poor defence other than as to quantum of damages in a civil case. It'd be interesting to see how much would be found to be contributory as to the injured party.

A quick-cutting montage of hundreds of times it went fine would be a fairly good defence.

leggo

Stereomaniac wrote: »

From what I can see, and I am by no means experience in the ring, it is a move which takes a lot of understanding between the two performers to execute safely. A full-time environment, such as TNA lends itself to this more than the indies, where AJ is probably working with different people every single time he performs. I don't see how he has allowed to go as far as 3 casualties of this thing though, would you not learn after one, or at least two?

What it comes down to, sadly, is that AJ feels the move makes him money (the 'indie' mentality I've referred to) and the fact that, on the indies, promoters will pay him if they feel he draws money. There's no set 'code' that can ever force him to stop beyond his own conscience or promoters unanimously not tolerating it.

leggo

Deleted User wrote: »

A quick-cutting montage of hundreds of times it went fine would be a fairly good defence.

You could do the same with piledrivers and chairshots to the head. Doesn't mean they're a good idea.

Palo Alto

Or people driving cars.

leggo

HA!

"Thousands of people cross the road every day. Yeah sure they need to wait for the green light, but ah do things differently cuz ah'm special see? It ain't mah fault he don't know to stop look 'n' listen whenever I come ridin' through a red light at 80 miles per hour. That's mah thing!"

Styles is essentially Snitsky to me now.

rovert

https://twitter.com/gradowrestling/status/537710628673429504

Riddle101

leggo wrote: »

HA!

"Thousands of people cross the road every day. Yeah sure they need to wait for the green light, but ah do things differently cuz ah'm special see? It ain't mah fault he don't know to stop look 'n' listen whenever I come ridin' through a red light at 80 miles per hour. That's mah thing!"

Styles is essentially Snitsky to me now.

He should adopt his theme

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YNwWTmocG6k

Stereomaniac

leggo wrote: »

What it comes down to, sadly, is that AJ feels the move makes him money (the 'indie' mentality I've referred to) and the fact that, on the indies, promoters will pay him if they feel he draws money. There's no set 'code' that can ever force him to stop beyond his own conscience or promoters unanimously not tolerating it.

For sure, promoters probably want an AJ match, with the Styles Clash as the finish.

Ageyev

Deleted User wrote: »

Has he been done for assault yet?

I think you know the answer to that question tbh. Lionheart wrote in FSM that a doctor told him he could've been killed. It is not a trivial matter however, and the wrestling business is far more litigious now than in the past.

An File wrote: »

Just to play Devil's advocate for a little bit, should HHH be made to stop using the Pedigree too? It is, similarly, a face-plant without control of one's arms.

Only pedigree botch I've ever seen was the one to Marty Garner. It's on Youtube... Triple H has used a pedigree where he releases the arms. Also worth considering that he has been working in the WWF since 1995 and currently oversees all new signees. AJ works indies and his Japan dates which is somewhat different.

gnfnrhead

Ageyev wrote: »

I think you know the answer to that question tbh. Lionheart wrote in FSM that a doctor told him he could've been killed.

Not exclusive to the Styles Clash. It can be applied to quite a lot of moves actually. Misawa for example, died from a belly to back suplex. Should nobody be allowed do a suplex now? Brian Cage recently landed on his head trying a Moonsault. Should nobody be allowed do a Moonsault now? Every move has some element of danger to it but the Styles Clash is perfectly safe, assuming both parties know what they are doing. Lionheart even said in that piece that the dangerous part is what the receiver does. If he doesn't do what he is supposed to do for that move, there is nothing Styles can do about it. If he does as he is supposed to, he will be fine every single time. The move isn't dangerous, as Lionheart says. The problem is people not knowing how to take it correctly.

Leggo made the point that the three times someone has screwed it up, they have all been experienced guys who would not be scared to ask for a run through. I'd have said the opposite. Not that they are scared, but I'd expect guys who have been wrestling that long not to even consider asking for a run through unless it was a brand new move they had never seen before. They would know the move and think it'll be grand.

grames_bond

Also in relation to the pedigree - when HHH does it now he let's go of their arms when he jumps, no longer does he restrict the opponent from shielding their fall, and as mentioned the position he has them in he protects them throughout.

The fact that he changed from locking their arms to releasing them does look to me like he adapts to protect.....unlike styles.

jaykhunter

So this is getting locked for the rest of the day. Everyone can take a breather and come back in 24 hours.

rovert

IT HAPPENED AGAIN

https://twitter.com/enuhito_eng/status/538941686781464577

Ageyev

rovert wrote: »

IT HAPPENED AGAIN

https://twitter.com/enuhito_eng/status/538941686781464577

Why did you type that in all caps?

Bounty Hunter

Ageyev wrote: »

Why did you type that in all caps?

For OMG!! Style dramatic effect.

He needs to stop using it now IMO. If he returns to TNA fine cos at least there he has a track record of people whom he worked with on a regular basis not getting hurt but now be it his fault, their fault or whoever's fault too many people are or nearly are suffering career / life threatening injuries.