Undocumented Irish.

ardle1

Just thought I'd throw this out there..
With all the talk lately of the undocumented in the USA, is anyone(like me)somewhat suspicious or surprised by the 50,000 figure that keeps coming up in relation to Irish undocumented!?
I would have thought more in the regions of 500,000
Anyway as I said just throwing it out there, maybe someone could shed a bit more light on the stats or whatever maths is involved in this 'seemingly' low figure.

mr_edge_to_you

Do you mean "illegal immigrants"?

deco nate

Not a hope in hell that thier is
500,000(Irish) ...Were did this come from in you're mind?

Dr Turk Turkelton

mr_edge_to_you wrote: »

Do you mean "illegal immigrants"?

They are only illegal immigrants when they come to Ireland.
When we emigrate we are undocumented Irish.

deco nate

Dr Turk Turkelton wrote: »

They are only illegal immigrants when they come to Ireland.
When we emigrate we are undocumented Irish.

And pray tell, is it 50,000
Or 500,000.
Which do you believe is more the true number of irish living
Illegally?

Dr Turk Turkelton

Having lived in New York on and of over the years (legally) I can confirm the number of Irish in the US is 73,269.

Cushie Butterfield

It's hard to quantify the amount of undocumented for that very reason - they are undocumented. Any figure would be a guesstimate. Immigrant Support Organisations have a rough idea but are only basing it upon a multiple of the number that they know of.

You have to bear in mind that a lot of undocumented eventually become documented mainly by marriage to US citizens, so the figure is probably a lot less than some people think it is.

Jawgap

Dr Turk Turkelton wrote: »

They are only illegal immigrants when they come to Ireland.
When we emigrate we are undocumented Irish.

I always loved the phrase 'undocumented Irish' - makes it seem like they left their documents on the hall table when they were leaving.

I wonder if there'd much be government willingness to introduce a similar scheme here? Any 'undocumented' immigrants who have kids being given unrestricted rights of residence and work?

Personally, as far as I'm concerned they (the paperless paddies) made a deliberate decision to go there and live illegally - and as such I know why the government are interested in dealing with the issue but I think there's much more important things they should be focusing on.

.......and when I was caught by an INS agent in the late 1980s I wasn't classed as 'undocumented' I was deemed illegal and fecked out!

unjedilike

I found looking for a job whilst undocumented very depressing. Soul destroying at times.

NewYork1979

A lot of Irish people left to make a living for themselves and their families. Remember the 80's in Ireland. I'm sure they've suffered plenty being undocumented/illegal, not being able to return home and living waiting for the knock on the door.

We judge people for doing lots of illegal things but come off it, this isn't up on top of the list.

Duck's hoop

NewYork1979 wrote: »

A lot of Irish people left to make a living for themselves and their families. Remember the 80's in Ireland. I'm sure they've suffered plenty being undocumented/illegal, not being able to return home and living waiting for the knock on the door.

We judge people for doing lots of illegal things but come off it, this isn't up on top of the list.

Think about present day Somalia, Congo, Sudan, Georgia, Iraq. But we put those people who have managed to escape from there, to make a better life for themselves, in little rooms with no right to work. Often for over 5 years, then deport them.

Undocumented me hole. Whining illegals. I can't stand listening to them on the radio.

One was on a couple days back saying she couldn't visit her terminally ill mother in Ireland and subsequently missed the funeral. That's very sad, but she did make a choice.

NewYork1979

Duck's hoop wrote: »

Think about present day Somalia, Congo, Sudan, Georgia, Iraq. But we put those people who have managed to escape from there, to make a better life for themselves, in little rooms with no right to work. Often for over 5 years, then deport them.

Undocumented me hole. Whining illegals. I can't stand listening to them on the radio.

One was on a couple days back saying she couldn't visit her terminally ill mother in Ireland and subsequently missed the funeral. That's very sad, but she did make a choice.

Yes and I do agree with your point about our views on illegals coming into Ireland, we have a bit of a double standard regarding ourselves abroad.

Two things though, one is that a fair amount of the undocumented/illegals that went to the US worked hard, I don't think it would have been possible for them to be on social welfare of any kind, not sure of that? Would I be correct in saying that Mexican immigrants going into the US work and are not entitled to anything? Regarding the countries you mentioned, there are very deep socio, economic and political issues that need to tackled and I don't think as we have seen that the "West" can or indeed should solve them. In that scenario we have to limit the amount of illegals coming into Ireland claiming welfare as we simply don't have the resources to keep funding it.

I am not black or white on this issue, the above is just my opinion and I am very open to other opinions on the matter.

NewYork1979

Duck's hoop wrote: »

Think about present day Somalia, Congo, Sudan, Georgia, Iraq. But we put those people who have managed to escape from there, to make a better life for themselves, in little rooms with no right to work. Often for over 5 years, then deport them.

But at least we look after people who come here, the US will deport you immediately? This in turn forces you underground. Surely that makes us as a country more tolerant of illegals?

anncoates

Undocumented Irish makes it sound like some kind of pressing humanitarian disaster instead of thousands of Irish working for cash in hand

El Weirdo

Dr Turk Turkelton wrote: »

They are only illegal immigrants when they come to Ireland.
When we emigrate we are undocumented Irish.

White people = Undocumented
Brown people = Illegal

Senna

El Weirdo wrote: »

White people = Undocumented
Brown people = Illegal

Green people = aliens

Glad we got that sorted

Larry Wildman

unjedilike wrote: »

I found looking for a job whilst undocumented very depressing. Soul destroying at times.

It should be though, correct?

crockholm

It's great to see them on their Marches proudly waving the flag of the country they don't want to be sent back to.How childish of them to Think that they can wilfully and continually break their host countrys laws,just because,shure everyone here loves the Irish.

Boot the w@nkers out.

Grab All Association

Speaking about Irish in America. I had some plastic paddy (probably over tracing her routes and buying shamrock fridge magnets) annoying me yesterday even though I called the person and they could clearly hear it was a man voice.

Anyway she kept ****ing texting thinking I was a girl and I woke up to 4 missed calls ffs.

Deport!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Grab All Association

Also I got the feeling she was a mid aged menopausal auld bat hence why I didn't hit her . If all expat/children of expats are stupid enough to call you at 6:30am in the morning then I support these people getting citizenship on the condition they are banned from using a mobile phone if they ever enter this country. I'm still pretty pissed off I was awoken

mikemac1

Not so subtle brag you slept with some blond girl and now can't remember her name ^^^^^^

Grab All Association

I say that to every wrong number because they always wake me up (i never ever get a wrong number call when I'm awake always when I'm asleep and I get at least 3 a month) :P I'm very cranky in the mornings.

Some of them get really pissed off with you and offended

Girl: blah blah blah blah blah
Me: Who is this?
Girl: Its Amy
Me: Are you the girl who something something somewhere
Girl: **** you I'm a married woman (or something like that)

They never annoy me again

Guy:Incognito

Remember folks, your only "illegal" if you one of them smelly Mexicans. Its the poor, put upon Iriah that are "undocumented" as a result of the evil American Empire.

EDIT, BAH Dammit El Wierdo.

dm09

I've worked in the US for a year, I had to jump through a lot of hoops and spend a lot of money to get the visa. Attend several interviews at their embassy, have fingerprints and pictures taking. Have a background and criminal check done. Why should those who bypassed the whole visa process be rewarded? Surely they knew the risks of been 'undocumented' in the US? While I do have some sympathy I think that rewarding visa dodgers and cue skippers would send out a very bad message.
There would be absolute uproar here if our government proposed something similar. How about instead, the Government lobby for more accessible visas?

323

Dr Turk Turkelton wrote: »

They are only illegal immigrants when they come to Ireland.
When we emigrate we are undocumented Irish.

Always have to laugh whenever the term undocumented Irish comes up, strange how it only applies to the Irish in the US. Regularly told I should be sympethatic to them as I had lived over there for a number of years (legally).

It's bollocks. You emigrate, to any country, without appropriate documentation

=> Illegal Immigrant

Don Kedick

A lot of begrudgery going on in this thread.

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

What kind if system prevails in the US where these undocumented say they have paid takes for years? Surely if they are in the system for tax there would be records for them.

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

shruikan2553

Don Kedick wrote: »

A lot of begrudgery going on in this thread.

Yeah, we all want to be criminals and do illegal things grrrr.

LostinKildare

There are only about 300,000 undocumented immigrants from all of the European nations combined. See the first figure in this link, from the Washington Post:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-fix/wp/2014/11/21/7-charts-that-explain-the-undocumented-immigrant-population/

Estimates of the numbers from non-North American nations in particular are probably pretty accurate seeing as how there would be immigration records of them having entered the US originally (i.e., with visas, at airports, as opposed to having sneaked across a land border completely undocumented)

dan1895

Don Kedick wrote: »

A lot of begrudgery going on in this thread.

Towards who and for what?

RZoran

You can simply go on the IRS website and get a federal tax ID # that you can pay taxes on if you want but somehow i doubt many voluntarily do that. Also while illegals technically are prohibited from qualifying for welfare, the registration requirements in some states can be quite lax and of course once they have a baby then the baby as a US citizen is legally entitled to welfare and the parent/s are still going to be the legal guardians. Add in the unpaid doctor & hospital bills. Also pretty sure I remember reading a report from the non-biased congressional budget office that said that paying back taxes would cause quite a few illegals not to seek to become legal.

Don Kedick

shruikan2553 wrote: »

Yeah, we all want to be criminals and do illegal things grrrr.

Some people are trying to make a life for themselves Stateside and you're bedrugding them it. What difference does it make to you?

323

RZoran wrote: »

You can simply go on the IRS website and get a federal tax ID # that you can pay taxes on if you want but somehow i doubt many voluntarily do that. ..............

Knew some Europeans that did this and remember being told that a lot of Mexicans did (While over there I lived in the South West) also, they then had a record of tax payment when they could afford to get an emigration lawyer to get themselves sorted out.

HeidiHeidi

I have to say that I never, ever got my head around the rank hypocrisy of the Irish calling for all the US "undocumented" to be facilitated and legalised, while implementing the direct provision asylum system here, and calling for the deportation of all (or most) in it.

Successive Taoisigh even petitioned US presidents about it, apparently with a straight face.

Talk about wanting it every which way.

Duffy the Vampire Slayer

dan1895 wrote: »

Towards who and for what?

Nothing and no-one. Irish people have used the word 'bedgrudgery' so much that it has completely lost all meaning.

Jawgap

Don Kedick wrote: »

A lot of begrudgery going on in this thread.

Don Kedick wrote: »

Some people are trying to make a life for themselves Stateside and you're bedrugding them it. What difference does it make to you?

Fine, good for them - but why should they be allowed take shortcuts?

there is a system by which you can apply for a visa and work permit - why should some people think the rules shouldn't apply to them.

I returned to work for 18 months in the US after I was asked to leave, it took six months to process all the paperwork - are you saying that it's ok to say "to hell with it" and just go?

Don Kedick

Jawgap wrote: »

Fine, good for them - but why should they be allowed take shortcuts?

there is a system by which you can apply for a visa and work permit - why should some people think the rules shouldn't apply to them.

I returned to work for 18 months in the US after I was asked to leave, it took six months to process all the paperwork - are you saying that it's ok to say "to hell with it" and just go?

That's why you're begrudging them, you got caught. What difference does it make to you now? Just because you had to go through crap then everyone else should too? Forget about it, let them live their lives.

Jawgap

Don Kedick wrote: »

That's why you're begrudging them, you got caught. What difference does it make to you now? Just because you had to go through crap then everyone else should too? Forget about it, let them live their lives.

It makes a difference because politicians who should be working for us are working for people who don't pay taxes here.

It's also hypocritical - I've yet to see or hear a single politician here wax on about about 'undocumented Nigerians' or 'undocumented Romanians' - do you think there'll be a similar system introduced here for 'undocumented' immigrants?

And I didn't have to go through crap - it was an intra-company transfer, so the company shovelled the crap on my behalf.

Again, why should some people feel that the rules shouldn't apply to them?

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

Don Kedick

Jawgap wrote: »

It makes a difference because politicians who should be working for us are working for people who don't pay taxes here.

It's also hypocritical - I've yet to see or hear a single politician here wax on about about 'undocumented Nigerians' or 'undocumented Romanians' - do you think there'll be a similar system introduced here for 'undocumented' immigrants?

And I didn't have to go through crap - it was an intra-company transfer, so the company shovelled the crap on my behalf.

Again, why should some people feel that the rules shouldn't apply to them?

Jealousy reeking from this post.

Politicians are wasting time on far more things, this takes little time. How does it affect your life? It doesn't, stop begrudging them.

Don Kedick

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Funny you're talking about criminals since you support British army terrorists!

Jawgap

Don Kedick wrote: »

Jealousy reeking from this post.

Politicians are wasting time on far more things, this takes little time. How does it affect your life? It doesn't, stop begrudging them.

I'm not begrudging them - live there, don't live there it's all the same to me - but people whinging when they get caught breaking rules or complaining about a system that they moved into is a bit lame.

As I said, there's a good few Irish people who seem to think the rules shouldn't apply to them for no other reason than the fact that they are Irish.

Also, I'm not sure how I could begrudge them given I could return to work Stateside in a matter of weeks if I was inclined to

Laura Palmer

Don Kedick wrote: »

Some people are trying to make a life for themselves Stateside

It's not that that people are criticising obviously - it's the way in which they do it and then acting as if their human rights are being violated because they can't go home and get back in, when they actually CHOSE themselves not to emigrate via the official channels.
Saying it's "begrudgery" to be of the above view demonstrates not understanding what the term begrudgery means.

ardle1

mr_edge_to_you wrote: »

Do you mean "illegal immigrants"?

Eh yes! Obviously.

Don Kedick

Jawgap wrote: »

I'm not begrudging them - live there, don't live there it's all the same to me - but people whinging when they get caught breaking rules or complaining about a system that they moved into is a bit lame.

As I said, there's a good few Irish people who seem to think the rules shouldn't apply to them for no other reason than the fact that they are Irish.

Also, I'm not sure how I could begrudge them given I could return to work Stateside in a matter of weeks if I was inclined to

You want them to suffer, it makes no difference to your life as you say. It's none of your business, just forget about it and get on with your life.

Cushie Butterfield

Laura Palmer wrote: »

It's not that that people are criticising obviously - it's the way in which they do it and then acting as if their human rights are being violated because they can't go home and get back in, when they actually CHOSE themselves not to emigrate via the official channels.
Saying it's "begrudgery" to be of the above view demonstrates not understanding what the term begrudgery means.

The vast majority chose to do so because they didn't have the option to emigrate via the official channels - the majority wouldn't qualify for an immigrant visa based on their qualifications/specialist skills (or the lack of them). The majority that do have the qualifications or specialist skills obviously go through the proper channels. You won't find many undocumented brain surgeons but you would find many undocumented in unskilled occupations. That's just the way it is.

Don Kedick

Laura Palmer wrote: »

It's not that that people are criticising obviously - it's the way in which they do it and then acting as if their human rights are being violated because they can't go home and get back in, when they actually CHOSE themselves not to emigrate via the official channels.
Saying it's "begrudgery" to be of the above view demonstrates not understanding what the term begrudgery means.

It makes no difference to you, let them get as good a deal as they can get, don't begrudge them that.

HeidiHeidi

Cushie Butterfield wrote: »

The vast majority chose to do so because they didn't have the option to emigrate via the official channels - the majority wouldn't qualify for an immigrant visa based on their qualifications/specialist skills (or the lack of them). The majority that do have the qualifications or specialist skills obviously go through the proper channels. You won't find many undocumented brain surgeons but you would find many undocumented in unskilled occupations. That's just the way it is.

But if that's the case, why bother having the rules at all?

If someone decides that they want to live and work in the USA but don't have the necessary qualifications, it doesn't matter that the US have rules about these things - they should be allowed in regardless? Just because they want to?

Are countries not allowed to have sovereign control over who enters/stays in their territory

Jawgap

Don Kedick wrote: »

You want them to suffer, it makes no difference to your life as you say. It's none of your business, just forget about it and get on with your life.

Sorry, but where does it say I want them to suffer?

I'm saying we all make choices and choices have consequences - some consequences we think are worth the risk (such as living 'undocumented' in a country that will deport if you are found). If the consequences come to pass then it's time to be an adult and instead of whinging about it, just get on with it.

And I am getting on with my life and like most people we neither care nor are bothered about the choices of the undocumented - but, correct me if I'm wrong, they are the ones who brought the issue into the public realm and have worked so hard to keep it there - so it's not like you have go out of your way to hear about it being discussed.