Going into work every day not knowing whether I'd be sacked or not

newguy4321

Each day I go into work I fret that I'm going to be let go, every morning I've to "drop into HR" & sit a table & have an extremely formal meeting with a hr manager & be pretty much threatened with losing my job

I'm doing nothing terribly wrong, or I'm not doing anything that warrants me losing my job

It's a horrible feeling travelling into work not knowing whether it's going to be your last day in the job or not

And the thing is I really like the job, the people I work with are very friendly helpful & nice, its just HR that are the problem, I don't want to leave because the actual work that I do I enjoy

I've never been officially given a verbal or written warning either

I'm no expert with regard to employee/employer law but surely there must be some sort of law that should discourage or not allow this kind of behaviour from employers ?

Any advice on how I should go about this issue ?

Stheno

Something doesn't sound right here.

When did this start and how long have you been with the company?

newguy4321

Stheno wrote: »

Something doesn't sound right here.

When did this start and how long have you been with the company?

About 4 weeks back, I'm with the company 3 months, when I signed there's a probation clause for the first 9 months of the contract

Probably not a good idea to name the firm, but it's a professional services' firm

Stheno

newguy4321 wrote: »

About 4 weeks back, I'm with the company 3 months, when I signed there's a probation clause for the first 9 months of the contract

Probably not a good idea to name the firm, but it's a professional services' firm

Right,and how exactly was this new regime put in place? How were you informed about it? Did anything happen prior to this being put in place, e.g. you making a mistake/failing to finish a task?

wexie

newguy4321 wrote: »

Each day I go into work I fret that I'm going to be let go, every morning I've to "drop into HR" & sit a table & have an extremely formal meeting with a hr manager & be pretty much threatened with losing my job

I'm doing nothing terribly wrong, or I'm not doing anything that warrants me losing my job

It's a horrible feeling travelling into work not knowing whether it's going to be your last day in the job or not

And the thing is I really like the job, the people I work with are very friendly helpful & nice, its just HR that are the problem, I don't want to leave because the actual work that I do I enjoy

I've never been officially given a verbal or written warning either

I'm no expert with regard to employee/employer law but surely there must be some sort of law that should discourage or not allow this kind of behaviour from employers ?

Any advice on how I should go about this issue ?

hmm....is this some kind of performance improvement plan or something?
No offence but you're very skimpy on details?

The way you describe this (not saying this is the case) it could be an underperforming employee being given every chance and support to make the grade?

Stheno

wexie wrote: »

hmm....is this some kind of performance improvement plan or something?
No offence but you're very skimpy on details?

The way you describe this (not saying this is the case) it could be an underperforming employee being given every chance and support to make the grade?

I thought the same, but what's bizarre here is that OPs post reads as if it just transpired out of the blue!

newguy4321

Stheno wrote: »

Right,and how exactly was this new regime put in place? How were you informed about it? Did anything happen prior to this being put in place, e.g. you making a mistake/failing to finish a task?

Through email & phone calls, I was asked 1 day to go down to HR for a talk & it's just continued from there

No nothing at all happened before the meetings started, it doesn't sound & make a lot of sense, I thought it would've been well stopped by now so I just kept on working & doing what I was supposed to be doing

Stheno

newguy4321 wrote: »

Through email & phone calls, I was asked 1 day to go down to HR for a talk & it's just continued from the

No nothing at all happened before the meetings started, it doesn't sound & make a lot of sense, I thought it would've been well stopped by now so I just kept on working & doing what I was supposed to be doing

That sounds bizarre to be honest, it sounds like the company think you are underperforming, and something triggered this process being put in place to improve your performance.

Who asked you to go down to HR and what was the reason?

wexie

So what's said in the meetings then?
Surely you've been given an explanation (or asked for one) by either HR or your line manager?

newguy4321

wexie wrote: »

hmm....is this some kind of performance improvement plan or something?
No offence but you're very skimpy on details?

The way you describe this (not saying this is the case) it could be an underperforming employee being given every chance and support to make the grade?

No it's not a performance improvement plan or in relation to poor work performance or any of that

We do have personal plans & have our own set objectives/targets to meet but these aren't addressed every single day

how many more details do you want ???

wexie

newguy4321 wrote: »

No it's not a performance improvement plan or in relation to poor work performance or any of that

We do have personal plans & have our own set objectives/targets to meet but these aren't addressed every single day

how many more details do you want ???

newguy4321 wrote: »

No it's not a performance improvement plan or in relation to poor work performance or any of that

We do have personal plans & have our own set objectives/targets to meet but these aren't addressed every single day

how many more details do you want ???

So you were just told to go to HR, without any explanation?
And HR are just threatening you with leaving your job?

No reasons or explanation?

IF....that is indeed the case I think you should contact a solicitor and make sure you bring a third party to these meetings.

BUT....again I think there's something missing from your story. Very few professional companies/HR departments would be silly enough to leave themselves open to litigation on bullying grounds (cause that's what this would be)

newguy4321

Stheno wrote: »

That sounds bizarre to be honest, it sounds like the company think you are underperforming, and something triggered this process being put in place to improve your performance.

Who asked you to go down to HR and what was the reason?

It's tricky to describe, & then I don't want to say too much just in case my situation is taken further, as in down the legal route

An extreme lack of trust from hr,
for example before lunch a few weeks back a relative of mine passed away, I went to hr to ask would it be ok if I went home for the day given what had happened, & I was told no that I had no proof of such a thing & I just could be making it up & that I was due to be back in work after lunch,
while standing in the hr office I had to text my dad to send me a text about the death so that I could show hr so that I had proof so that I could go home
& luckily he text me straight away, showed hr the text dad sent me, they reluctantly let me home


High snobbery from hr, especially hr manager, they talk down to you as if you're a piece of dirt on the ground


Also while in these meetings I get the sense/vibe that there's a bit of a sexist issue, ie male vs female, it's all women that that I'm up against in these meetings
this might be irrelevant but I've been in hr so much that I know for 100% that there's not 1 male working in the hr department
Maybe this still goes on in most jobs so I'm not sure ?

Beano

but what is actually discussed at these daily meetings? what is their purpose?

newguy4321

wexie wrote: »

So what's said in the meetings then?
Surely you've been given an explanation (or asked for one) by either HR or your line manager?

Again it might be best if I don't explain exactly word for word what is said in the meetings

but the main themes of them would be lack of trust in me in general, not in relation to work performance ie employer not having trust in employee to do the job required

I also think where I'm from could have a tiny small percentage to do with the meetings, I'm not a snob myself I don't come from a posh area, I'm working class

there's a few more as well

Stheno

newguy4321 wrote: »

It's tricky to describe, & then I don't want to say too much just in case my situation is taken further, as in down the legal route

An extreme lack of trust from hr,
for example before lunch a few weeks back a relative of mine passed away, I went to hr to ask would it be ok if I went home for the day given what had happened, & I was told no that I had no proof of such a thing & I just could be making it up & that I was due to be back in work after lunch,
while standing in the hr office I had to text my dad to send me a text about the death so that I could show hr so that I had proof so that I could go home
& luckily he text me straight away, showed hr the text dad sent me, they reluctantly let me home


High snobbery from hr, especially hr manager, they talk down to you as if you're a piece of dirt on the ground


Also while in these meetings I get the sense/vibe that there's a bit of a sexist issue, ie male vs female, it's all women that that I'm up against in these meetings
this might be irrelevant but I've been in hr so much that I know for 100% that there's not 1 male working in the hr department
Maybe this still goes on in most jobs so I'm not sure ?

HR tends to be a profession which has a lot of women working in it.

I'm still wondering what caused this to be put in place, you were there two months when it started, I'm wondering if you are giving us a complete picture here. From the examples above, if I were being told this by someone, I would wonder if your behaviour/attitude/performance is a factor here, that has triggered this and you are simply refusing to say so/acknowledge that?

newguy4321

Other things as well, like I haven't really so far been able to make new friends from the job

even though I get on well with the people I work with in the work environment, I don't talk to them outside work, or I don't socalise with them, so in hr I'm constantly reminded to work as part of the team, & to communicate well
which I always did anyway prior to the meetings starting, & I've had no complaints from other team members about my communication skills


another thing I have to have a constant chat with hr about is the firm itself, so consistently reminded of that I'm representing the firm

even though I've done nothing wrong to warrant them to constantly remind me that I represent the firm,
possible lack of trust again ?

newguy4321

Stheno wrote: »

I'm still wondering what caused this to be put in place

Nothing in particular !

eimsRV

I think you should ask them for explicit issues that they feel you are not performing on and then ask them to work with you to address. It all sounds very vague. You should also ask for a copy of the process that they are following by meeting with you daily, be it disciplinary process or probation process.If it is a disciplinary process they should make you aware of that and most companies allow you bring a representative in with you.

Stheno

newguy4321 wrote: »

Other things as well, like I haven't really so far been able to make new friends from the job

even though I get on well with the people I work with in the work environment, I don't talk to them outside work, or I don't socalise with them, so in hr I'm constantly reminded to work as part of the team, & to communicate well
which I always did anyway prior to the meetings starting, & I've had no complaints from other team members about my communication skills


another thing I have to have a constant chat with hr about is the firm itself, so consistently reminded of that I'm representing the firm

even though I've done nothing wrong to warrant them to constantly remind me that I represent the firm,
possible lack of trust again ?

For both the bolded statements above, there may have been complaints about your communication/representation of the firm.

Anyway I'm pretty much done here, you claim everything was as always and suddenly these meetings start.

Doesn't make a blind bit of sense.

TiMe2PaRtYYYYY

Advice .... put up or shut up..... employment law does protect you ... but you need to have all your facts together ... also a good argument against why a Human resources Department is victimising you

wexie

newguy4321 wrote: »

Other things as well, like I haven't really so far been able to make new friends from the job

even though I get on well with the people I work with in the work environment, I don't talk to them outside work, or I don't socalise with them, so in hr I'm constantly reminded to work as part of the team, & to communicate well which I always did anyway prior to the meetings starting, & I've had no complaints from other team members about my communication skills

You wouldn't. Teammembers don't complain to eachother, especially not the new guy. They complain to management.

newguy4321 wrote: »

another thing I have to have a constant chat with hr about is the firm itself, so consistently reminded of that I'm representing the firm even though I've done nothing wrong to warrant them to constantly remind me that I represent the firm, possible lack of trust again ?

Do you dress like the rest of your colleagues? Are they all wearing Boss suits and you're wearing Penny's?

Visible tattoo's? Haircut/ etc. etc? Ride a bike? Old car?

All these things can matter in a (conservative) corporate environment.

Beaner1

Bizarre. They can fire you pretty much for any reason at this stage of your employment so I don't know why they would invest so much time and effort with daily meetings.

cml387

I don't know about your(OP) workplace but in ours there is a disciplinary procedure to follow.

1. Informal chat with supervisor / section leader to indicate where performance is falling down and must be improved.This normally wouldn't involve HR but if requested by either side it would be permitted.The employee is given a timescale to improve.

There are other steps but this is the first rung of the ladder.

Have you been given a clear description of where you're going wrong and how to fix things?

Mongfinder General

Reads pretty much like the HR department in a supermarket chain...

Betty Bloggs

Just because you mentioned they keep constantly reminding you that you are "representing the firm" I'm wondering if you have a facebook page and if there may be something they object to on it that they either saw themself or may have been reported to them by a colleague you have perhaps friended on there?

Not accusing you, just trying to think of some examples they might object to, but have you ever for example pulled a sickie but put status/pics up on facebook that proved you were not really sick that day, (they seem to really distrust you now given the example you gave about when your relative passed away), or have you ever openly bitched about the workplace that could have been seen somehow?

Is there any mention by you or people on your friends list about illegal drugs (even weed) that a colleague you friended may have reported, or are there any people in your friend's list with past criminal convictions.

I don't even know if these are grounds legally for a dismissal or not, or why they wouldn't just tell you straight if this was the case - unless maybe if a person who reported you for such possible things asked them to please not tell you what they had said?

It just seems so weird that they seemingly turned on you out of the blue after you getting on well there for the first two months.

If there is some type of bullying/snobbery/discrimination or sexism going on, maybe they are just trying to cover themselves legally by holding these meetings with you so they have reasons when/if they terminate your contract?
I know you might not be covered under the Unfair Dismissals Act due to being on probation (unless your dismissal was related to pregnancy or trade union reasons), but you could be covered under the Industrial Relations Act for unfair dismissal.

A man in Ireland was awarded 30,000 euro for unfair dismissal even though he was only on a 6 month probation contract. I think it may have been because he refused to sign up for an extra 3 months probation because they had not given him enough reasons as to why his performance was not acceptable enough to warrant a full time contract.

Very hard to tell what's going on here really. I think you should keep a record of every time you are disciplined or had a chat to and what the reasons were for (if you believe it was unfair and not warranted) , also keep a record of every time you believe a comment is made out of sexism or snobbery/bullying.
I'm not sure who you report bullying and sexism to if it's HR that are doing it but somebody on this forum would probably know.

You really need to tell them straight out that you are unhappy about this situation because you don't understand the reasoning behind it.
Ask them their exact reasons for bringing you in every single day and when they give their reasons, if you disagree then stand up for yourself and argue your corner (in a respectful professional way).

I would personally also start bringing a notepad to these daily meetings to let them see you are taking notes of all their problems they are having with you, what suggestions they are telling you to do, and also what actions you have taken to correct any genuine problems etc.
If it gets to the point where they are just giving ridiculous reasons for disciplining you could have a written log there with you that they have already mentioned these things and a written record of steps that show you already
rectified these things. There's bound to be a lot of needless repetition if it's EVERY SINGLE day that they are having these meetings.

Very strange story that on the surface at least does look like some form of bullying unless there are major things you are doing wrong that you just haven't mentioned here??

Mrs OBumble

I've put a lad on the workplace equivalent of daily report (do they have that in schools here?) before. However I did it myself rather than asking HR to do it.

Basically it was because he lacked professional judgement and plain old common sense: if there was something that looked odd but he didn't understand, he'd just ignore it instead of asking for help. So we had a few potentially serious issues with data updates not being done.

So I turned up at his desk at a random time every day, and made his discuss his work with me in far more detail than any other employee had to discuss things.

And while that may sound like "bullying" to some - the reality was that if his performance didn't improve drastically, we would simply have fired him.

OP, I'd say it's likely that HR are trying to help you fit in and do a better job - or even help you understand what the issues are.

Mongfinder General

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

I've put a lad on the workplace equivalent of daily report (do they have that in schools here?) before. However I did it myself rather than asking HR to do it.

Basically it was because he lacked professional judgement and plain old common sense: if there was something that looked odd but he didn't understand, he'd just ignore it instead of asking for help. So we had a few potentially serious issues with data updates not being done.

So I turned up at his desk at a random time every day, and made his discuss his work with me in far more detail than any other employee had to discuss things.

And while that may sound like "bullying" to some - the reality was that if his performance didn't improve drastically, we would simply have fired him.

OP, I'd say it's likely that HR are trying to help you fit in and do a better job - or even help you understand what the issues are.

How long has he been working there?

Betty Bloggs

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

I've put a lad on the workplace equivalent of daily report (do they have that in schools here?) before. However I did it myself rather than asking HR to do it.

Basically it was because he lacked professional judgement and plain old common sense: if there was something that looked odd but he didn't understand, he'd just ignore it instead of asking for help. So we had a few potentially serious issues with data updates not being done.

So I turned up at his desk at a random time every day, and made his discuss his work with me in far more detail than any other employee had to discuss things.

And while that may sound like "bullying" to some - the reality was that if his performance didn't improve drastically, we would simply have fired him.

OP, I'd say it's likely that HR are trying to help you fit in and do a better job - or even help you understand what the issues are.

That wouldn't sound like bullying to me, and I think it actually sounds very decent of you to take such time to help an employee.
I'm only wondering if the OP is getting bullied because he mentioned things like snobbery and sexism happening and that there is no reason he is aware of as to why they are having these talks with him, like they are suddenly happening for no good reason and they are not explaining it to him. And he is threatened with being fired every day which is pretty major.

Now it's very possible and even likely that it is just a similar situation to the one like you described where maybe they are trying to help, but I'm just going on the limited information the OP has given us so far. OP could be leaving something major out that would have made me offer very different advice.

micosoft

Where is your manager in all of this?

"I'm doing nothing terribly wrong, or I'm not doing anything that warrants me losing my job". What an odd thing to say. You might want to define what this means.

You are with the company three months. If you are under-performing now they can let you go.

BizzyC

OP, from the sounds of things there are reasons for you to be there, but you dont want to see them.

Your team and manager are not oblivious to the fact you're spending time with HR. If it was really out of the blue, your manager would have something to say about HR wasting your time.

They're giving you feedback and probably getting frustrated that you're ignoring it. If you continue to ignore it, it will become a valid reason to let you go.

Creol1

Allow me to break with some of the comments above and commiserate with you on your experiences -- from the loss in your family it would seem you are up against one heartless HR Department.

I would recommend joining a trade union. Even if your firm doesn't recognise unions, they would be able to offer you advice and perhaps cover legal costs in the event of a dispute.

Grandpa Hassan

The OP is on probation, so the firm can let him go pretty much any time they please. There wouldn't be anything a trade union could do about that.

My advice to the OP is to engage really enthusiastically with the HR people, and really listen to what they say and follow it through. I don't believe that there is no reason for these meetings, and there must be feedback being given that HR feel is not being acted upon

L.Jenkins

OP, if you can't understand why you have daily meetings with HR, you may want to speak with your Manager to gain some clarification and understanding. HR don't typically hold daily meetings with an employee for no good reason what so ever.

TBP

Could be wrong but I'd hazard a guess that the company or HR people might have found out something about the OP, maybe something they have done in a previous job or something, they might not be to happy about it and are now putting pressure on him big time in the hope they'll hit the road.

Larbre34

It doesn't matter whats at play here. Daily meetings in the HR department would never be upheld as fair procedure or reasonable management of an issue. If there is that much of a problem, and you are still within your probation period, they should have either escalated the disciplinary process or terminated you by now. This ongoing meeting lark is nonsense

Maryaisling1

I agree there is essential information missing from your story. There is a reason you are being called to meet with HR so often, you don't tell us why making it impossible for us to give an answer and therefore this is a guessing game for us. I do not think that HR would waste their own time having meetings with you for no reason.

sillysmiles

OP, get yourself a solicitor who specialises in employment law. Someone you can tell all the details to and will be able to give you clear advice on what needs to be done.

If you are on probation and they can let you go whenever I fail to see why they are having these meetings.
If they are trying to address some issue or shortcoming in your performance then they aren't being clear about what the problem is so you have no chance of improving.

Ultimately though you are going to have to take some action and seek clarity on whats going on.

Mrs OBumble

sillysmiles wrote: »

If you are on probation and they can let you go whenever I fail to see why they are having these meetings.
If they are trying to address some issue or shortcoming in your performance then they aren't being clear about what the problem is so you have no chance of improving.

The first sentence here is spot on. There is no legal need for the company to try to force the OP to leave voluntarily. But maybe there is a relational reason for this approach: OP - how did you get the job? Are you related to anyone high up in the company, or in any of their major customers?

Also - what does "I'm doing nothing terribly wrong, or I'm not doing anything that warrants me losing my job"? mean? What are you doing that's slightly wrong?

There are laws which say that employers cannot bully you. But the definition of bullying includes having malicious intentions. And given that they could just get rid of you without any discussion, I'm finding it hard to see that keeping you on and having conversations is malicious.

Beano

TBP wrote: »

Could be wrong but I'd hazard a guess that the company or HR people might have found out something about the OP, maybe something they have done in a previous job or something, they might not be to happy about it and are now putting pressure on him big time in the hope they'll hit the road.

but there is no need to do that. they can just fire him.

gandalf

How established is this company?

Are you the only person being singled out for this treatment?

If so and you do not know the reason why, have you asked them? If you haven't do ask? And keep asking if they are being vague.

Personally it seems like a place that is micromanaged in the extreme and my first action would be to seek alternative employment. I would also document every interaction in detail in the form of a diary.

Typically what you describe is a situation where a major deficiency or error has occurred and the company want to ensure its dealt with, if thats the case and you want to keep it to yourself thats fine but at least you do know the reason. If there isn't a reason then something is seriously up with the procedures and HR in this organisation.

jimmycrackcorm

Op, why are you not discussing this with your manager? If they are happy with your work then they should deal with HR to let them know that their daily meetings aren't required.

Its funny, i used to work for a company in the past who always had me or somebody else in front of HR. It was used as a control technique. The meetings themselves were held in such a way that i did not know what was going on. They would re-assure me that everything is ok, there is nothing wrong ask me some questions and get me to sign something. It wasnt until i matured and got some cop on that they were giving me warnings.

They started to realize that i was copping onto what they were doing, so i would be called for another meeting, but they would not inform me what the meeting was about. They would then spring all this info on you not giving you a chance to collect your thoughts or put together an argument together.

The OP clearly has no idea whats going on where he works. Its also hard to give any advice with lack of info. But if the OP is that upset about it, and has brought it to boards.ie, there is some sort of bullying going on.

gandalf

Dre that sounds like one seriously messed up organisation. I assume this was occurring after you were permanent with this company and they were "prepping" people to be let go.

Michael D Not Higgins

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

Op, why are you not discussing this with your manager? If they are happy with your work then they should deal with HR to let them know that their daily meetings aren't required.

I also found it strange that OP would approach HR when their relative died. That is a line manager call, not something you go to HR about.

Terrlock

All sounds very strange and from what the OP is saying there is no way of determining what's going on.

It's all very confusing, I wonder is this the issue at work?

You kinda saying that something is happening but not giving any real detail of what. You don't have to give away your company details...but you should be able to say if this is a performance related issue or something else.

Next time you have a meeting with HR, tell them you don't know what these meetings are for and you want written confirmation about what they are all about, if they have issues with your performance get them written down with evidence to the fact.

Until you know what's going on, there isn't much anyone can advise you on.

aunt aggie

A lot of people are giving out about the OP not giving enough detail but he doesn't want someone from management or HR identifying him, which is a smart move. Not a nice situation to be in regardless of the reasons or lack of reasons.

Ole Rodrigo

OP, it sounds like you have been labeled as a possible ' bad fit ' in the general company or team culture which is essentially a way for someone to get rid of someone they don't like, whether you've done something wrong or not. Unfortunately, in an employers market its common and one of the main reasons for people getting let go.

If that's true, you can try fit in more by engaging in bland small talk about tv shows, football teams etc..be pleasant to key people in the office hierarchy even though your gut instincts tell you they don't deserve it. Work hard and be seen to be doing so. Get in 10 mins early and leave 10 mins late.

Or you can despair at all the study and work that you put in amounts to little in your working life compared to getting along with the right person in a tribal office culture where job insecurity does funny things to some people.

I'd go for option b swiftly followed by option a.

December2012

Honestly I think you should talk with an employment solicitor. You can disclose all the facts in a confidential manner, take professional advice and prepare a strategy, all without letting your employer know (at least initially).

Grandpa Hassan

December2012 wrote: »

Honestly I think you should talk with an employment solicitor. You can disclose all the facts in a confidential manner, take professional advice and prepare a strategy, all without letting your employer know (at least initially).

Before he does that, the OP needs to look at his behaviour very critically and consider whether he is not following up on behavioural changes that HR are requesting. I find it really really hard to believe that a professional services firm that is large enough to have an HR department would be doing this just to be vindictive and make someone's life miserable. He is under probation, so there would be no need....they can just let him go. The fact that they are going through this actually suggests to me that they are trying to help

wexie

Grandpa Hassan wrote: »

The fact that they are going through this actually suggests to me that they are trying to help

You can lead a horse to water....

mikemac1

If there was an issue with your performance then why isn't your line manager meeting you or at least in the meetings?

It's realy bizarre to have daily meetings with HR. Are you in a supermarket OP?

There's not enough info here realy for posters to give detailed answers. I think you should book a little time with a solicitor and it's better if they specialise in employment law. If you are in a union you should go to your shop stewart straight away