Dosing cattle at housing

dodo mommy

When is the best time to us closomectin pour on at housing. Eg how many weeks after housing.

yop

Mod Note: This is a Mayo forum.... Moved

_Brian

dodo mommy wrote: »

When is the best time to us closomectin pour on at housing. Eg how many weeks after housing.

We wait 4-6 weeks

Greengrass1

Cows done at dry off here or when they go into shed do again then 6 wks later

saranac1

I give all weanlings Ibr shot (2ml) and also rispoval intranasal , nothing else

Heifers, bulls for winter finishing are given (levastas diamond or closmectin)and bimectin (lice etc)around 2/3 weeks into housing

All tails are cut and bulls penned per age and weighed for slaughter

Any weanlings coughing are seperated and given nuflor and Ctc powder on their meal

smokey-fitz

This year ill use pour on for worms going into the shed, then dose for fluke and maybe lice 6 weeks later.

I personally dont think the combined fluke and worm doses are great ie: ivomec super, animec super, albex. Been using them here for years and all my cattle killed this year had liver damage from fluke or had fluke in the liver so I wont be using the combined doses again after housing.

Muckit

smokey-fitz wrote: »

all my cattle killed this year had liver damage from fluke or had fluke in the liver so I wont be using the combined doses again after housing.

Do you ring up the factory or how do you find out that?

Greengrass1

smokey-fitz wrote: »

This year ill use pour on for worms going into the shed, then dose for fluke and maybe lice 6 weeks later.

I personally dont think the combined fluke and worm doses are great ie: ivomec super, animec super, albex. Been using them here for years and all my cattle killed this year had liver damage from flukey or had fluke in the liver so I wont be using the combined doses again after housing.

Really? I did dung samples this yr touch of fluje and touch if worms. Nothing major. Used fasinex last yr and then albex for worms. No liver damage in cows gone to factory. Using albex here this yr for fluke and worms

smokey-fitz

Muckit wrote: »

Do you ring up the factory or how do you find out that?

Yea you can request liver reports from them, some factories do it automatically. Good to know these things.

smokey-fitz

Greengrass1 wrote: »

Really? I did dung samples this yr touch of fluje and touch if worms. Nothing major. Used fasinex last yr and then albex for worms. No liver damage in cows gone to factory. Using albex here this yr for fluke and worms

I took over earlier this year, since I did I started using different doses. When my father was dosing, he always used ivomec super and dosed every animal inc cows throughout the year, he dosed going into the shed and also coming out. He used to use trodax on them but stopped a couple of years ago so im putting it down to that plus there could be some resistance now especially to ivomec super.

Also about half the farm has pretty heavy land, if even look at it at the moment it will turn to muck so id say its half the problem

Edit: meant to say I only started using albex drench this year so im not sure on that yet. Any fluke damage would of been already present before I started using albex.

Just from now on ill be using a seperate fluke dose during housing.

greysides

saranac1 wrote: »

I give all weanlings Ibr shot (2ml) and also rispoval intranasal , nothing else.

.....

Any weanlings coughing are seperated and given nuflor and Ctc powder on their meal.

Are you saying you don't dose them at all?
How can you be sure the coughing isn't Hoose or worsened by a worm burden (You don't mention faecal samples)?

Heifers, bulls for winter finishing are given (levastas diamond or closmectin)and bimectin (lice etc)around 2/3 weeks into housing

Levafas Diamond contains levamisole (which won't control inhibited worms) and oxyclozanide (which only gets adult fluke i.e. from 10-12 weeks in the animal up) so giving it 2-3 weeks post housing is missing a good share of the fluke present and the inhibited worms.

Bimectin will do a good job on the worms (gets the inhibited) and some sort of a job of the lice.

However, you've given two wormers where one would do.

If you go the Closamectin route, the closamectin contains the same ingredient as the follow-up Bimectin for worms but you are now double dosing with the same ingredient. The fluke component,closantel, would need animals to be housed about 7 weeks to get good use out of it.

If I am reading your post correctly you really should talk to your vet as you are unnecessarily doubling up the dosing, still not getting an efficient result and paying more than you need to for it.

On the other hand your programme for respiratory disease is top notch although one antibiotic should suffice for most of those getting them.

poor farmer

I am very intrested in your comments on dosing. Mr.Greysides.
I am currently housing 20 month bulls and heifirs also in calf heifers. all have been dosed with ivermectin injection after turnout may/june and again aug/sept.
I have checked for rumen fluke and samples always come back positive.A fair bit of my grazing ground would be low lying/bottomy.
On the day i house the cattle, I dose with levafas .Two weeks later I dose with a three stage fluke drench fasinex/endofluke and treat for lice.
I housed in calf heifers yesterday and gave them levafas.today the are piping a dark black scour.

Greengrass1

poor farmer wrote: »

I am very intrested in your comments on dosing. Mr.Greysides.
I am currently housing 20 month bulls and heifirs also in calf heifers. all have been dosed with ivermectin injection after turnout may/june and again aug/sept.
I have checked for rumen fluke and samples always come back positive.A fair bit of my grazing ground would be low lying/bottomy.
On the day i house the cattle, I dose with levafas .Two weeks later I dose with a three stage fluke drench fasinex/endofluke and treat for lice.
I housed in calf heifers yesterday and gave them levafas.today the are piping a dark black scour.

None of those doses will rid rumen fluke. Zanil is only product to kill rumen fluke

Deepsouthwest

Greengrass1 wrote: »

None of those doses will rid rumen fluke. Zanil is only product to kill rumen fluke

Levafas diamond kills rumen fluke, and in my opinion is far more effective than zanil. Can't be used on dairy dry cows though

greysides

Deepsouthwest wrote: »

Levafas diamond kills rumen fluke, and in my opinion is far more effective than zanil. Can't be used on dairy dry cows though

The flukicide in Levafas Diamond is what's in Zanil. Only possible difference is the levamisole components activity, which is on worms only. That doesn't take into account any differences due to formulation differences from two different manufacturers..... which should be minimal.

There is still very little evidence of serious fluke infestation in the livers of lambs being slaughtered. No doubt due to the summer we had. Ruminal fluke will follow a similar pattern and with cattle now housed, or soon to be, it shouldn't be a problem this year of all years.
That's a generalisation, local factors may out weight that but.....with this summers weather...

greysides

poor farmer wrote: »

I am very intrested in your comments on dosing. Mr.Greysides.
I am currently housing 20 month bulls and heifirs also in calf heifers. all have been dosed with ivermectin injection after turnout may/june and again aug/sept.
I have checked for rumen fluke and samples always come back positive.A fair bit of my grazing ground would be low lying/bottomy.

No Mr. around here.

Comments, probably in no logical order....

20 month old animals, after their second season at grass are a little different than weanlings/yearlings. More mature, experienced immune systems. There could even be a case made for just a single summer dose for worms. So many factors in choosing doses are local... soil, rain fall, previous dosing regimes affecting levels of soil infestation, stock-rate, mixed grazing or not...
You have covered them well for worms at grass. You could have used a levamisole dose. Cheaper but no prolonged action and a good option to break away from use of ivermectin.

Your low-lying ground comes into that, as if you were getting LIVER FLUKE egg counts you would have some fluke present after one of the driest summers ever. If you had checked for LIVER FLUKE back in, say, Sept and eggs were present then you would have adult fluke in the animals. In that case I would think that's it's probable they would have been there from the spring before the summer got going and not from any recent infection which would largely be still immature enough not to be laying eggs.

RUMEN FLUKE (RF): Unless you have previously tried to clear out RF, say last winter, then the RF could be there a while. They are not a new arrival, they have been known about in this country long before they came news-worthy. By and large they are non-pathogenic. When circumstances allow they can become problematic, as we've seen. Those circumstances are exceptional though. I've heard anecdotal stories told of scouring cattle that couldn't be cured until Zanil was administered in the past. I could never put logic to them, it didn't seem as though the Zanil should have worked due to the remainder of the history, 'must have been something different'...... now, with 20/20 hindsight I'm wondering if those were isolated cases of RF.

My general approach to RF on a normal, or better, year would be to ignore it. If something isn't going as it should after the cattle have gotten a routine regime then it would merit consideration in tandem with weighing up local factors.

On the day i house the cattle, I dose with levafas .Two weeks later I dose with a three stage fluke drench fasinex/endofluke and treat for lice.
I housed in calf heifers yesterday and gave them levafas.today the are piping a dark black scour.

Okay, now specifics.

It sounds as though you are getting a reaction to the 'fas'-part of the dose. It could be you've upset a few RF but (especially of you've been a little generous) it could be completely down to a normal physiological reaction to the oxyclozanide. It is known to cause exactly what you've described.

You are obviously aware of just how good the 'fas' part is for liver fluke as you are using a better dose at a later stage.

The 'leva' part of the dose is not a good choice as a housing dose for worms as it won't hit inhibited worms. It's a separate argument as to whether cattle of that age would need a better dose than it but if you are going to the trouble of dosing them then you may as well get some value for effort.

I would suggest a change to your programme. You could use Zanil for the RF at housing and give an albendazole wormer at the same time (I see no indication on either datasheet prohibiting this... but I wouldn't use the albendazole at the fluke dosage rate).
The albendazole will cover the inhibited worms the levamisole misses and... now don't tell anyone, and certainly don't put it on the internet.... but albendazole has some activity against the immature RF (the ones that cause the problems, rather than the adults which don't).

Then continue as you are doing. Maybe clip the backs before applying the lice dressing.

greysides

This year in the UK, the advice facilitated by the year, for most locations is to wait 6-7 weeks after housing and use a moderately active flukicide such as Trodax OR Flukiver.

The purpose is to save Fasinex from an early development of resistance so it will be useful for longer.

saranac1

The Ibr and intranasal has produced no problems for me in the last 2 yrs when housed
Yes coughing is a co tributary factor to hoose but when I buy my weanlings in and are housed on my farm I don't know what they have been given before I bought them so I give them the levastas and bimectin to cover everything
However if what you say is true I will enquire with my vet.

2 heifers picked up hoose on the field in sept and nearly died but where treated in time, some more are coughing so that's why I dosed them with levastas

The cows in calf are still out and will be out over the winter with access to shed , so I dosed them with blackleg and levastas ( however I will enquire with vet on use of zanil instead)

greysides

saranac1 wrote: »

The cows in calf are still out and will be out over the winter with access to shed , so I dosed them with blackleg and levastas ( however I will enquire with vet on use of zanil instead)

Thanks for the answers. Reading your first post I took different meanings from it to what you had intended, one being that you didn't dose the weanlings at all, only giving them vaccines.

Ask your vet about what they'd recommend for the in-calf cows also.

Greengrass1

My weanlings are in now and need to be dosed haven't got done in over 5 wks coughing starting now.
Would albex be okay for them?

poor farmer

Thanks Greysides for the comprehsive reply.
Am I right in concluding that Levafas will kill rumen fluke, but its poor for worms and only kills mature fluke.
I was assuming that it would kill worms.

greysides

poor farmer wrote: »

Am I right in concluding that Levafas will kill rumen fluke, but its poor for worms and only kills mature fluke.
I was assuming that it would kill worms.

Yup, in summary..

Levafas contains:

Levamisole- worms but not inhibited (type 2)
Oxyclozanilde- adult Liver fluke and adult Ruminal fluke

greysides

Greengrass1 wrote: »

My weanlings are in now and need to be dosed haven't got done in over 5 wks coughing starting now.
Would albex be okay for them?

Albex will kill any hoose present, as well as stomach and gut worms.
Naturally won't cover viruses, which may be causal/involved.

saranac1

Would closamectin dose be similar to albex

greysides

saranac1 wrote: »

Would closamectin dose be similar to albex

Depends on the definition of 'similar'.;)

Yes, both can, nominally, treat fluke and worms but that's about it.

Closamectin is a combination of ivermectin and closantel.

The ivermectin is equally effective against worms in that it hits type 2 worms. It has a prolonged action that albex doesn't have but which is irrelevant in housed animals.

While albex only kills mature fluke at an elevated dosage rate, the closantel is more effective.

Treatment of fluke at 12 weeks (mature) >99% efficacy

Treatment of fluke from 7 weeks (late immature) >90% efficacy

Treatment of fluke at 5 weeks, 43% effectivity rising to that >90% at 7 weeks old.

It stunts the surviving early immature fluke (those < 6 weeks) and reduces their reproductive capacity.

(44% reduction in size and capacity reduction of 36%)

So, all in all, much more effective as a flukicide than albex.

micky mouse

Greengrass1 wrote: »

My weanlings are in now and need to be dosed haven't got done in over 5 wks coughing starting now.
Would albex be okay for them?

would bimectin pour on be an option..kills all lice i think +lung worms+stomach worms including type2.something like tribex fasinex endofluke should take care of All fluke if given 2 weeks after housing. Everything covered then i think

smokey-fitz

Greysides, abamectin which is part of the avermectin family as is ivermectin. If you had cattle or sheep that may be slightly resistant to ivermectin or you just wish to change to prevent resistance to ivermectin, would abamectin be a good alternative?

greysides

I've seen abamectin recommended for some reason and I'm trying to remember why...... I think it's because there's no need for persistence when housing but I'm not sure.

AFAIK, resistance tends to work via families. It's most likely resistance will be due to tolerance of a family characteristic. If you suspect a problem with ivermectin use a white or clear anthelmintic.

Here's a site with good advice.

smokey-fitz

greysides wrote: »

I've seen abamectin recommended for some reason and I'm trying to remember why...... I think it's because there's no need for persistence when housing but I'm not sure.

AFAIK, resistance tends to work via families. It's most likely resistance will be due to tolerance of a family characteristic. If you suspect a problem with ivermectin use a white or clear anthelmintic.

Here's a site with good advice.

Thanks for that, ill give it a read. I seen pour on (abinex I think), that has abamectin in it so I was researching it, I read a piece somewhere on it that it was trialled on sheep that were only having something like a 40 something % kill of worms with ivermectin due to resistance and 95% kill with abamectin. Not sure how reliable this info was but I taught the same as you with it been in the same avermectin family.

Thanks again for the link.