Invoicing Query

corriefan

Hi all, would really appreciate any advice on this.

My husband is self employed and had an account with a particular local supplier that he knows quite well. It was always agreed that the credit limit on his account was to be €2000. About a year ago, this supplier rang my husband and told him that his account was now at €6500 owed. My husband was shocked and asked how could that possibly be? He had regularly made payments and in his own head was always aware of keeping within his limit, keeping invoices and having an idea of what he was spending.

I look after the books and during the past few months, I have thoroughly gone through all the books with the result that we have approximately €6400 of invoices not on file. We have asked for copies before of which we could absolutley determine that we did not purchase €1500 worth of the goods as stated, €700 of which was on invoice for one item!!

I have written to the supplier, whose business has since closed down, explaining this and also asking for copies of the other invoices one of which is over €1100. We have been given a statement but nothing itemised. My husband is a small sole trader so it is quite easy for the goods to be checked against our own records.

He is absolutely refusing to give us copies of the invoices as requested stating that is a solicitors job and that he will take us to court now.He asked us to make him an offer to end it all. We offered half of the money because we feel that we should have kept on top of the books better and to avoid the legal route which he has refused. We again asked for copies of the invoices to a firm no. We have never refused payment but do not want to pay for goods that we never received.

Has anyone any advice or experience in this type of dispute? We have never had an issue with suppliers and are still trying to get back on our feet after an incredibly hard financial few years. Thanks in advance for any help.

Pat Mustard

You are trying to settle a debt without knowing how much is owed.

I don't know how you are going to claim VAT back without VAT invoices. Then again, I'm no accountant.

Also note this section concerning acknowledging debts, which gives extra time to a creditor to take action if a debt is acknowledged.

I would advise you to make no further contact with this guy and to go straight to a solicitor.

tenifan

The guy's pulling a fast one. You'll probably find he has no idea how much you owe him, so he just made up a big number in the hope you'll just settle on €5k.

First things first, does the company exist any more? If not, you should not be dealing with this guy at all if the name on the invoices is the company name. If the company is being wound up by a solicitor, you should address all your correspondence to the solicitor. If you make a settlement, it should be by cheque and should be in the name of the company and not the company owner.

Rustle together the last 2-3 invoices that are without a doubt outstanding (do not give him the breakdown) and ignore all the rest where it may not be clear what is outstanding and what isn't.

[Mod:

Legal advice deleted. Legal advice is not allowed]

Once he provides you with all that,you will be in a better position to identify items not received, and match invoices against payments to your bank statement.
Don't waste your time communicating with him over the phone. He's threatened legal action so [Legal advice deleted]

Not legal advice as such, just a bit of common sense.

corriefan

Thank you both for the replies.

Just to say that the statement we have received has all the invoices listed that we have not on our files. We have asked repeatedly for a copy of the invoices giving him all the invoices numbers and he is refusing to give them. We want to check those against projects at the time. Has he any right to refuse to give us copies of these invoices? Some of the missing invoices are from €300 up to €1100 and we are sure that they were not mislaid by either of us.

He has asked for €4000 upfront end of or is taking it to court. Like I said, we offered €3000 in 6 installments which he refused, saying it was no good to him. We simply do not have €4000 as well as the fact that we have no idea what we would be paying him for officially.

The company is still listed as active with two directors, one of whom is him. The premises has closed down a number of months ago.

We just really don't want the stress but it seems that a solicitor is our next step unfortunately.

Gmol

I would not do anything until invoice numbers are provided.

corriefan

Thanks gmol, we actually have the invoice numbers from the statement given but none of those are in hardcopy on our files.

We have asked for copies to check the goods charged for but he has refused. 'He doesn't want to go back over invoices' being the excuse given and that a solicitor will look after all that unless we give him the €4000. I would imagine that a solicitor would query why he couldn't just give copies of the invoices as requested as a matter of course? Its a strange one.

Gmol

So he expects you to give him money?, there should be no problem asking him to provide invoices. If he can provide statements he can surely provide invoices.

corriefan

Thats it in a nutshell, he wants €4000 upfront for goods that we have no invoices for, or he is bringing us to court. He has also said that we are accusing him of fraud by querying the invoices, which I absolutely told him we were not doing and had never thought so of him. I was really taken aback by this.

P. Breathnach

He won't get anywhere in court without producing copy invoices.

I'm inclined to think this is a bluff, and I suggest that you tell him that you will not pay unless he produces invoices for you to check.

Valetta

P. Breathnach wrote: »

He won't get anywhere in court without producing copy invoices.

I'm inclined to think this is a bluff, and I suggest that you tell him that you will not pay unless he produces invoices for you to check.

More importantly, he needs to be able to prove the debt is owed.

Anyone can produce invoices.

At a minimum, he would need to have dockets signed by your husband acknowledging receipt of the goods.

Peregrinus

Don't pay a shilling without the invoices. And then only if you are satisfied that the invoices are correct, and that you have not already paid them.

Write to him, registered post, keeping a copy, tellling him that you don't know what the charges relate to, you don't appear to have received the invoices he says he sent, but you'll be delighted to look into the matter and pay anything that you owe as soon as he can supply you with an itemisation of what is owed, and copies of the invoices. Any more guff about legal proceedings and write him a second letter saying that if he takes legal proceedings without having responded to your request for itemisation and invoices, then regardless of the outcome of the legal proceedings you will produce the letter in court and seek to have him fixed with the costs of both sides.

As P. Breathnach points out, he cannot possibly succeed in court without itemising what he says he is owed and documenting it.

corriefan

thank you all, i should have mentioned that statements and invoices we have normally received are automated using TAS. would this make any difference?

tenifan

corriefan wrote: »

thank you all, i should have mentioned that statements and invoices we have normally received are automated using TAS. would this make any difference?

How would it make any difference to you?

If anything the fact he's using such a well-known system should make it even easier for him to reprint an old invoice!

Victor

As a 'lady' once said "No plonker. No nookie."

No invoice. No money.

He is possibly coming very close to engaging in fraud, but that is for your solicitor to say, not you.

corriefan

he actually said thats what i was accusing him of, which i assured him i wasnt. everytime either my husband or i asked for invoices he cut us off with court and has two staff willing to back him up. we feel better after the advice, much appreciated.

corriefan

Hi all,

Just an update on this thread. After two months of no contact, my husband received a text yesterday saying that he promised him €3000 and has not seen any of it yet :eek:

The last my husband spoke with him, he offered the €3000 as in the original post which was refused. We were so glad after that he did, considering the advice I got here. We were very naive, and tbh were apprehensive about any legal action being taken against us. Its just not our thing, but in hindsight and following this thread, I realise how little he can actually do.

I am now going to put everything in writing as we are only toing and froing with nothing being resolved. Thanks to all!

Pat Mustard

corriefan wrote: »

I am now going to put everything in writing as we are only toing and froing with nothing being resolved.

I would be very slow to put anything in writing.

How do you know that your letters will not be produced to a court in support of a debt collection action against your husband.

corriefan

Thanks The Mustard,

I was going along the lines of previous advice on this thread i.e. asking in writing for proof of original signed invoices which he should have, and we will pay what may be owed. We are getting nowhere speaking with this man, so I thought a letter would be appropriate, and he can take it to his solicitor etc.

Would you still advise not to do so?

Pat Mustard

Well, I am trying to avoid legal advice, which isn't allowed per forum charter.

That said, you could take another look at the link in my post #2, which gives a link to a section of legislation concerning written acknowledgements resetting the clock with regard to time limits for cases. An action which might be about to run out of time to be brought could be given additional time, after a written acknowledgement.

By all means get the invoices from this guy. All I am suggesting is to be careful not to put anything in writing that could be used against you or your husband.

corriefan

Thanks The Mustard,

Thanks for the link, I don't think it applies as we are not acknowledging any debt, just requesting invoices that we have never had and which amount to over €6000. One invoice alone is for over €1100.

I have written a short letter, based on your recommendation simply requesting the invoices and that we cannot be expected to pay for goods without them. I am putting things in writing now as we are getting text and phone calls intermittently which are going nowhere.

Thank you again

corriefan

Just an update on this ongoing farce.

I sent a letter requesting invoices yet again, from which I received a phone call telling me that it was unfair to be asking for invoices, as they have 'moved premises.'

I couldn't get a word in edgeways with the phone call ending on 'are you going to make any payment', saying its a disgrace and hanging up on me when I was trying to speak.

Just received a letter today that a child would have written better saying that he is offended by being called a fraud (which we never did) and that looking for invoices is just an excuse not to pay :eek: He ends the letter by asking for €5000.

Sorry if this is boring at this stage, but it might help other sole traders/small businesses. This would have stressed us out even just a year ago, but you live and learn.

Mr. Incognito

A lot of people generally going under know that the company will have no claim legally or that receivers will go chasing debts so they reach out for monies owed with no invoices etc in a personal capacity.

Solicitors are used to this and are having one on record avoids a lot of stress and hassle.

Speak to a solicitor. If this joker contacts you again refer him to said solicitor with evidence of the alledged debt.

I would not engage in any correspondence or calls. Let your solicitor handle it.