Should Arsene Wenger and Arsenal part company?

efb

Poll to follow

Gbear

No

As with any change of manager it would be hugely dependant on who comes in.

I think that they need someone new if they want to win anything but it's not worth being cavalier about it and running the risk of falling out of their comfortable position.

As long as Wenger is in charge it looks like Arsenal will stay within striking distance of the top. I don't think they'll actually ever strike, but it gives the club some safety in that they can wait for the right man to take them to the next level.

LuckyLloyd

What would Wenger do instead?
What would Arsenal do instead?

I don't see Wenger doing another club job after this. I'd imagine he'll have a stint as France manager and that'll be it (open to correction on this if people have quotes that contradict it).

I'll admit that there have been times where I thought Arsenal should have been rid of him over the past 8 years. Now that the club has established the stadium, etc and seems to be willing to sanction investment in the side he should be able to push through and start winning things again.

Every season Arsenal maintain their place at the top table; play some wonderful football and suffer losses that must drive their fans absolutely insane.

- the first time they didn't qualify for the CL he would be sacked;
- the next time he won a league / CL the conversation would be parked for years;

It's a tough one!!

CSF

I think we need to be mindful of the environment we are in. Only one team can win the Premier League every year and Arsenal aren't in the situation where they'll be the most likely team to win it any time soon. They've also been in grave danger because of their situation (having to sell their best players very frequently) of falling out of the Champions League, but Wenger hasn't let that happen, I'm not sure a replacement would have been able to do that unless it was one of the elite Mourinho/Ferguson/Guardiola.

Recently things have looked up a little bit with signings like Ozil (granted he hasn't exactly set the world on fire, but it was big that Arsenal were able to sign him) and Sanchez things have looked better and Wenger may be able to push on in the next few years, obviously if Arsenal didn't make the Champions League that would be the time to say goodbye.

I don't buy the notion that Wenger isn't the man to take them to the next level, because he has already done so more than once. Circumstances meant that he couldn't keep them there, and he isn't quite Mourinho, but if the necessary investment that Arsenal have started to show again recently continues, Wenger is very capable of rebuilding them into a force to be reckoned with.

But again I'll repeat, only one team can win the Premier League every year and it doesn't make sense for every team who doesn't win it to sack their manager.

sky88

No

i do think its time for him to leave as i think it would be better for both the club and himself but nothing should be done untill the end of the season and he does not deserve to be sacked after all hes done with the club.

in fairness to him all the big clubs are struggling at the minute except chelsea

dfx-

No

If he continues on like they have been as maintaining the weakest hold on a top four spot, eventually they are going to be caught and superceded.

They've gone from being a regular title winner (1st place) to regular title challenger (2nd place) to regular best of the rest (3rd place) to a regular fourth spot. That spiral only continues to be regular 5th spot with Chelsea, City and United above them.

efb

dfx- wrote: »

If he continues on like they have been as maintaining the weakest hold on a top four spot, eventually they are going to be caught and superceded.

They've gone from being a regular title winner (1st place) to regular title challenger (2nd place) to regular best of the rest (3rd place) to a regular fourth spot. That spiral only continues to be regular 5th spot with Chelsea, City and United above them.

How are united above them?

Arsenal fans should be careful what they wish for. Look at Utd.

I think Wenger has a strong squad and with Sanchez and a fit Walcott back they should make top 4 or higher.

Bridge93

No

If Arsenal fans would like to swap, I'm willing to trade you Pardew for Wenger.
Having said that I feel he may have run his course at Arsenal, but don't take for granted how lucky you lot were with him.

efb

Bridge93 wrote: »

If Arsenal fans would like to swap, I'm willing to trade you Pardew for Wenger.
Having said that I feel he may have run his course at Arsenal, but don't take for granted how lucky you lot were with him.

Arsenal fans should expect more yada yada see thread...

Gbear

No

CSF wrote: »

But again I'll repeat, only one team can win the Premier League every year and it doesn't make sense for every team who doesn't win it to sack their manager.

While that's true, it's not just 1 season, but 11 seasons since they last won the league.

In that time have Arsenal had a single credible title challenge?

Even Liverpool, who've been ****e more often than not, have made a better go at it in that time.

While it's impressive to have stayed so stable, at some time you would have expected them to at least challenge.

efb

Gbear wrote: »

While that's true, it's not just 1 season, but 11 seasons since they last won the league.

In that time have Arsenal had a single credible title challenge?

Even Liverpool, who've been ****e more often than not, have made a better go at it in that time.

While it's impressive to have stayed so stable, at some time you would have expected them to at least challenge.

Nearly never won the race

Smartly Dressed

If Arsenal fall out of the top four this season, with more resources now than they've ever had, you would have to say that it's probably time they parted.

When these conversations arise, there's usually a divide of people where one side want Wenger gone without delay, and the other adopting a sympathetic tone, praising him for past glories and how he transformed the club. However, he has more resources than ever now, and yet the club is not competitive in the Premier League or Champions League. He is inexcusably hesitant and reserved in the transfer market. Tactically, he is very questionable and since Henry left, his sides have been characterised by infuriating mental weakness.

One person is never bigger or more important than the club.

efb

50/50 now

dfx-

No

efb wrote: »

How are united above them?

United are making forward progress from 7th or so. Arsenal will finish ahead of them/alongside them maybe this year, maybe next year, but they're static.

rarnes1 wrote: »

Arsenal fans should be careful what they wish for. Look at Utd.

You could argue that Utd spending so long with one manager helped cause the turbulence after him. Arsenal could easily learn from United equally.

CSF

Gbear wrote: »

While that's true, it's not just 1 season, but 11 seasons since they last won the league.

In that time have Arsenal had a single credible title challenge?

Even Liverpool, who've been ****e more often than not, have made a better go at it in that time.

While it's impressive to have stayed so stable, at some time you would have expected them to at least challenge.

They went through a really long period of losing all their best players (Fabregas, Van Persie, Clichy, Nasri, Toure, Adebayor even now Sagna), you can't expect a team to challenge while losing their best players, it is very uncommon. Now Arsenal are in a better position but they aren't in the Man City/Chelsea position where if they need to improve 3 players in a window, you can expect 3 30 million signings to fill those areas. Economics usually decide these things far more than football managers.

Drexel

My faith in him in a bit wobbly at the moment but overall I still think he is the right man for the job. He doesnt make it easy on himself though

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

What would Wenger do instead?
What would Arsenal do instead?

I don't see Wenger doing another club job after this. I'd imagine he'll have a stint as France manager and that'll be it (open to correction on this if people have quotes that contradict it).

I'll admit that there have been times where I thought Arsenal should have been rid of him over the past 8 years. Now that the club has established the stadium, etc and seems to be willing to sanction investment in the side he should be able to push through and start winning things again.

Every season Arsenal maintain their place at the top table; play some wonderful football and suffer losses that must drive their fans absolutely insane.

- the first time they didn't qualify for the CL he would be sacked;
- the next time he won a league / CL the conversation would be parked for years;

It's a tough one!!

It really is a tough one. Its nice to see some different opinions on him other then Arsenal fans. Sometimes I find it hard to be objective when it comes to Arsenal

CSF

dfx- wrote: »

United are making forward progress from 7th or so. Arsenal will finish ahead of them/alongside them maybe this year, maybe next year, but they're static.

Realistically, United are moreso finding their level, after performing below it last year. There are more young players who I'd be confident of improving at Arsenal than there at United where the young players look relatively average barring De Gea.

No. Madness. And think anyone who remembers the Arsenal between the early 70s and late 80s would agree.

They are one of the biggest clubs in England, they should have no expectations to be out on their own, ahead of clubs spending much more money. Staying at that top table is some achievement, others like ManU and Liverpool have shown how quickly things can fall away.

dfx-

No

CSF wrote: »

Realistically, United are moreso finding their level, after performing below it last year. There are more young players who I'd be confident of improving at Arsenal than there at United where the young players look relatively average barring De Gea.

United have shown they are willing to spend on what they feel is required. They need to spend more, but I would expect are much more prepared to pay for it than Arsenal are in order to push them upwards.

Arsenal players continue to lack leadership and composure. If there was a change and Arsenal bought in these characteristics as well as the talent, then maybe it is different.

byrneg28

Gbear wrote: »

While that's true, it's not just 1 season, but 11 seasons since they last won the league.

In that time have Arsenal had a single credible title challenge?

Even Liverpool, who've been ****e more often than not, have made a better go at it in that time.

While it's impressive to have stayed so stable, at some time you would have expected them to at least challenge.

2007/08

Ol' Donie

As an Arsenal fan, I'm 100% behind Wenger. I would be sick if he left.

The team/squad isn't perfect, and I've reached a very strange stage where I find Arsenal "doing an Arsenal" as in the last two games almost amusing.

But the simple fact is you can't reasonably expect to compete with City and Chelsea for the title. It would be nice if we could, and every media source will tell you we should, but it's not a level playing field, and really shouldn't be thought of as such. 3rd or 4th is fantastic every year.

It hurts like hell when we get a beating like those away games last year, and achieving qualification for the CL is much more satisfying than actually being in it (I'm not sure I want second in the group if it means we'll just get a hiding by Madrid), but in a sport that is comically unsporting regarding transfers, we are still doing exceptionally well.

So, for me, Wenger stays. No question whatsoever. 100%.

And when he goes, we'll be mid table at best for a long, long time.

bucketybuck

No

You can both appreciate the job Wenger has done at the club in the past while at the same time think that he is not doing all that good a job currently.

Arsenal are stagnant, and have been for a few years now. Whether its football, business or real life, when you stagnate your days are numbered and I suspect Arsenal are going to slip further behind the chasing pack.

Wenger is a proven top class manager, but he and the club have stagnated and it really shows. Personally I think Wenger has been making a lot of mistakes in the last few years, particularly regarding his squad. His current defensive woes are a situation entirely of his own making, he cannot blame anybody but himself for the horribly unbalanced team of players he currently has.

They'll probably win a few games and he will be the bees knees again, but I think its time he moved on, because Arsene Wenger is simply not going to win another title with Arsenal.

jonneymendoza

No

wenger should have gone 5 years ago

Francie Barrett

No

Until Arsenal fail to make the top 4, then Wenger should continue on as manager.

jester77

Football has changed a lot since he took over, now it is very much a financial driven game. If you were to take out the massive financial backing that City and Chelsea have had over the years, then Wenger would have had a few more trophies under his belt. He is a very shrewd manager and on a level financial playing field there are not many that would match him.

Unfortunately financial fair play doesn't really exist, and while he can still get a lot out of a team, he does not do himself any favours. He favours a certain type of player, he tends to over play players, he leaves substitutions too late and prefers style over results (no real plan B or no defending a lead). This results in Arsenal picking up a lot of injuries and always being on top of the injury list table and hinders their results. A fully fit Arsenal squad would give the title a good shot, but the problem is they are never fully fit.

Wenger is not going to change his policy, but replacing him is not going to magically make Arsenal title contenders, not without some big financial backing, and at the moment this is not the Arsenal way.

Whenever he does leave, he will be sorely missed. His style of football is a joy to watch. While most fans want silverware I don't think too many would want a return to the George Graham style of football to earn it.

Soups123

No

I Fear stagnation more than I fear change and for that reason a change would be good.

But the man has my full respect as a person and for what he has done for the club, I will talk to the grand kids about him.

keano_afc

Should have left last season after the FA Cup win.

His stubbornness is his downfall. This week is a microcosm of the club. Down to the bare bones at the back despite having ample time in the last window to strengthen. Take a 3-0 lead and crumble once one goal is conceded. Suicide tactics at 3-2, sends on a striker and pushes on for the 4th goal instead of shutting up shop. 4 days later, the EXACT same thing happens. He refuses to learn from his mistakes.

He's hurting his legacy, but there's no way he'll walk away. So we've 2 and a half years of this crap to put up with.

GavRedKing

I voted no, Arsenal will finish between 2nd and 4th but until we see how Southampton handle their next 10 games, its going to be hard to call the 4th team in the top 4.

I'd be willing to bet my house on Chelsea, City, Arsenal being the top 3 and its betweem Utd, Pool and maybe Southampton for 4th.

Bridge93

No

GavRedKing wrote: »

I voted no, Arsenal will finish between 2nd and 4th but until we see how Southampton handle their next 10 games, its going to be hard to call the 4th team in the top 4.

I'd be willing to bet my house on Chelsea, City, Arsenal being the top 3 and its betweem Utd, Pool and maybe Southampton for 4th.

Friend of mine said bet the house on South Africa to beat Ireland at the weekend! Houses are not for betting.

greendom

jonneymendoza wrote: »

wenger should have gone 5 years ago

In terms of his own personal legacy,perhaps. Then it wouldn't have been tainted by the stadium build and City and Chelsea using dis-proportionate financial muscle to work their way to the top table

purplepanda

No

Seems the tipping point has been reached with the clubs support, it's been a very long process going back to 2008 & 2009 but the opposition to Wenger has grown steadily each season since then.

Wenger continually making the same predictable mistakes & failure to learn from them has been the dominant issue. The club doesn't owe him anything anymore, he has had more than adequate time & renewed contracts since the stadium move & doesn't even spend what's made available to him.

It's now just a question of when he leaves & how, at the moment he has Kroenke's backing but many rumours suggest that the board is turning against him & making contingency plans.

Very sad to see so many life long Arsenal supporters refusing to attend matches until Wenger leaves, that's the legacy that Wenger has created , with fans abusing each other at games & much more.

bucketybuck

No

How many times are we going to hear about Chelsea and City having sugar daddies in this thread?

Chelsea being rich are not the reason Wenger didn't sort his defence in the summer, they are not the reason he only had Giroud as a striker last season, they are not the reason Arsenal have flattered to deceive for the best part of a decade.

I'm glad Fergie didn't curl up and moan in the face of the sugar daddies millions, and I think people should stop using it as a catch all excuse for Arsenals problems.

Kharrell

No

Been saying this for years now, and while last season he or they won a cup finally, that was just a minor speed bump for all the doubters. Living in London, and surrounded by in large by Arsenal fans, they want progression to be shown in the league and Champions League. FA Cup was a nice day out, and it's used to get the haters of their back for not winning a trophy in so long, but that's all to it.

I can understand not winning the league in the last decade, but how many times have Arsenal properly competed for league honours?

1 Champions League Final and averaging what, quarter finals or last 16 over near 2 decades is a woeful record for any club that considers themselves a top club. And no, qualifying for the Champions League year in, year out doesn't make you a top club necessarily neither. Just look around Europe for numerous examples of this, many clubs clinging on to past glories. Arsenal should have cemented themselves long ago as one of the top clubs in Europe. It's a club based in London who can provide Champions League for now, players know this, and has been proven in the past as a stepping stone.

He might have had some excuse with lack of funds in the past, but Wenger spent a hefty amount on two excellent players in recent years without really sorting out the hole in midfield.

If they compete and win something of note, I'll hold my hands up and admit I was wrong and say fair play. I won't be needing to do that while Wenger is there.

Hopefully he remains with Arsenal.

Just to add, I do respect Wenger for what's he achieved in the game, particularly up to 2004, and to a small extent, keeping Arsenal in the Champions League when the money wasn't flowing. Though they were a bit fortunate with Spurs being Spurs, and Liverpool falling off the face of the planet for a handful of years which further helped strengthen their stranglehold on 4th place.

greendom

bucketybuck wrote: »

How many times are we going to hear about Chelsea and City having sugar daddies in this thread?

Chelsea being rich are not the reason Wenger didn't sort his defence in the summer, they are not the reason he only had Giroud as a striker last season, they are not the reason Arsenal have flattered to deceive for the best part of a decade.

I'm glad Fergie didn't curl up and moan in the face of the sugar daddies millions, and I think people should stop using it as a catch all excuse for Arsenals problems.

That's because United had plenty to spend over that period, Arsenal's spending was severely curtailed by the new stadium. bit of a perfect storm from an Arsenal perspective.

Gbear

No

byrneg28 wrote: »

2007/08

Fair enough. That's still only one season within 5 pts and only 3 within 10 in 11 years.
There always seemed to be cycles of City, Chelsea and Utd waxing and waning but Arsenal don't seem to.

efb wrote: »

Nearly never won the race

There's been very little variation in the points they've accrued each season in the last 10 years, including last season when they signed a £40m superstar, and it's looking like this season again when they've signed another 30m+ superstar. Yes, it's early in the season and they could improve in January/with players getting fit, but they still look distinctly Arsenal-y.

To look at it another way, how much stagnation is tolerable?
I don't think there's any point in sacking him mid-season or anything, even if they're going to drop out of the top 4.

But if next summer they've finished 3rd or 4th again, then what?
That will be two seasons of the supposedly "new" Arsenal, free of debt and bringing in superstars functioning much the same as the old Arsenal who lost their best player every season.

L'prof

I think he still deserves to be at the helm, but key areas need to be addressed ASAP. If January passes is by without strengthening the squad defensively, serious questions will have to be asked. I was happy enough going on to this season with the squad we had, but after serious injuries to key players we are significantly weakened.

GavRedKing

bucketybuck wrote: »

How many times are we going to hear about Chelsea and City having sugar daddies in this thread?

Chelsea being rich are not the reason Wenger didn't sort his defence in the summer, they are not the reason he only had Giroud as a striker last season, they are not the reason Arsenal have flattered to deceive for the best part of a decade.

I'm glad Fergie didn't curl up and moan in the face of the sugar daddies millions, and I think people should stop using it as a catch all excuse for Arsenals problems.

Its an easy cop out really. We're much more stable in terms of FFP than City, not as much as Utd or Arsenal, but we sold to buy the last 2 years to make sure we were complying with FFP.

If we buy again in Janaury or the summer it will be because we've sold players again, the days of Roman throwing 150million each summer into the transfer kitty is long, long gone.

Not that it should have hindered Arsenal as you say, I cant think of many players in the last few windows that were linked with both and we've thrown more money at to make sure they came down the Kings road.

That_Guy

No

I like Wenger but even I find myself getting frustrated with Arsenal and I'm not even a fan.

When they're on form they're incredible but lots of teams have found them out and are able to cope with them a lot better in recent years.

Is that down to naive tactics or simply not having the adequate players to bed into that system. I'd say both.

There have been glaring positional weaknesses. Centre back, central defensive midfielder. Actually pretty much the defence as a whole.

When the likes of Gibbs, Debuchy, Koscielny are fit, they look great but Monreal, Mertesacker are not adequate replacements.

If Wenger was to come out and say, "look there's no money in the transfer budget to buy a defender. We'll have to make do with what we have" then I think fans would be ok with that.

I don't care hugely for finances in the game and I don't even pretend to know what Arsenal's transfer budget is but if there's big money to spend on Sanchez and Ozil then I don't see why they can't spend the money in areas they really need bodies in.

Sanchez and Ozil are good marquee signings and will appease fans but when the team is continually leaking sloppy goals in tight games, that's where it gets annoying.

I admire Wenger for his policy with youth players and what he's brought to the modern game in general but there are times when he needs to take monetary risks in the window.

I feel that he's taken Arsenal as far as they can go personally but I would like to think that he would make that call rather than be forced out.

brevity

For those fans who would like to see him leave, who would you like to see come in to replace him?

purplepanda

No

Shouldn't opposition supporters make themselves known if they vote in this poll? :P

greendom

GavRedKing wrote: »

Its an easy cop out really. We're much more stable in terms of FFP than City, not as much as Utd or Arsenal, but we sold to buy the last 2 years to make sure we were complying with FFP.

If we buy again in Janaury or the summer it will be because we've sold players again, the days of Roman throwing 150million each summer into the transfer kitty is long, long gone.

Not that it should have hindered Arsenal as you say, I cant think of many players in the last few windows that were linked with both and we've thrown more money at to make sure they came down the Kings road.

Yes but we're talking about the last 10 years when Roman was pumping in money at incredible levels and FFP was either unheard of or scoffed at.

I'm sure that if Chelsea hadn't been in the frame, and Arsene didn't have to rely on taking a punt on untried and younger players due to finances, then the likes of Drogba and Essien could easily have been Arsenal players

Ol' Donie

You'll keep hearing about sugar daddies as long as they keep buying trophies.

Just because it's tiresome, it doesn't mean it should be ignored.

Bridge93

No

Crazy levels of hypotheticals being thrown around here.
If Chelsea hadn't been taken over and Arsenal hadn't built a new stadium. Two pretty large events to take out.
Personally I think using Chelsea's money as a contributing factor to Arsenal falling off a bit is clutching at straws to the max.

Another thing. When building the Emirates did those in charge not know it would mean less finance for the team or know and not care? Guessing stadium plans were in places years beforehand. Plenty of time to work out the best financial route to take and how to divide money.
If fans are using the Emirates as a reason for finances being tight (they arent that tight but sure) then why not build a slightly less expensive stadium?

GavRedKing

Ol' Donie wrote: »

You'll keep hearing about sugar daddies as long as they keep buying trophies.

Just because it's tiresome, it doesn't mean it should be ignored.

You dont buy trophies, you win them.

Do you buy players to help you get there, of course you do, every team does, you cant produce 11 academy players and win the league with them.

For instance, had Arsenal bought Suarez last year they could have easily won the league, would they have bought the league? Yes.

Same way Fergie did when he brought in RVP, he was a huge difference that year and was small money for what he provided to Utd that year.

keano_afc

We actually spent quite a few quid during the supposed lean years of moving to the Emirates. A lot of it was on dross.

symbolic

Bridge93 wrote: »

Crazy levels of hypotheticals being thrown around here.
If Chelsea hadn't been taken over and Arsenal hadn't built a new stadium. Two pretty large events to take out.
Personally I think using Chelsea's money as a contributing factor to Arsenal falling off a bit is clutching at straws to the max.

Another thing. When building the Emirates did those in charge not know it would mean less finance for the team or know and not care? Guessing stadium plans were in places years beforehand. Plenty of time to work out the best financial route to take and how to divide money.
If fans are using the Emirates as a reason for finances being tight (they arent that tight but sure) then why not build a slightly less expensive stadium?

I'd be thinking the decision was - manage the difficult years but in the long term it'll be worth it to have the stadium.

Gbear

No

GavRedKing wrote: »

You dont buy trophies, you win them.

Do you buy players to help you get there, of course you do, every team does, you cant produce 11 academy players and win the league with them.

For instance, had Arsenal bought Suarez last year they could have easily won the league, would they have bought the league? Yes.

Same way Fergie did when he brought in RVP, he was a huge difference that year and was small money for what he provided to Utd that year.

Come off it Gav.

There's a difference between spending money the club earned through natural growth and some (incredibly dodgy) fella coming in and buying them several teams over the course of a decade.

Paj

No

when the stadium plans were made it was without reckoning for the input of money that chelsea and city got.

It was the right decision.

Bridge93

No

symbolic wrote: »

I'd be thinking the decision was - manage the difficult years but in the long term it'll be worth it to have the stadium.

That would be my thinking, but complaining of apparent lack of funds yet welcoming the Emirates as some do seems contradictary.

Drexel

keano_afc wrote: »

We actually spent quite a few quid during the supposed lean years of moving to the Emirates. A lot of it was on dross.

A lot of gems in there too. When you are buying from the 2nd or 3rd tier of player you are always goina have some who dont make it.