Will Wayne Rooney inevitably go down as Englands greatest ever player??

SharpshooterTom

As you know at the moment, baring any long term injury, he is on the verge of breaking BOTH Bobby Charlton's goalscoring record (needs 7 more) and Peter Shilton's number of caps record (needs 29 more).

So that means by the time he retires he's going to hold both the most caps record and goalscoring record for England. Pretty damn good if you ask me given all the players England have had throughout their history. That alone surely must at least put him in the top 10, and probably in the top 5. Whether you like Rooney or not (or whether you're a man utd fan or not :P) he is going own both those records within a few years so he has to be put into the equation now.

However, as we know he's not without his faults, scoring only 1 goal in 3 World Cups (Gary Lineker scored 10 goals in 2 World Cups, including a golden boot, which seems remarkable given Englands recent lacklustre achievements).

But like I say, I think this conversation is going to be had because he is going to hold both those proud records and most of my generation (those under 30, the "SKY" generation) will say he is the greatest England player I assume.

Will Wayne Rooney in time inevitably go down as England's all time greatest ever player?

Mushy

I don't think he'll go down as they greatest player, but anyone who criticises his contribution will easily be made look very foolish. Top 10 easily yeah.

Francie Barrett

He's a good player, but not a great player, Bill.

GavRedKing

I had a similar debate with a buddy recently about Robie Keane.

My argument was that if youve got the most caps or most goals, surely you have to be considered to be the greatest for your country but for a player to hold both records should entitle him to be called his countrys greatest, ala Robbie Keane and maybe Rooney too.

LuckyLloyd

Who's better? Longevity is a point in his favour. I think it's inarguable that Gascoigne / Lineker / Charlton / Moore and others have had better individual tournaments, but Rooney has been a good contributor for a very long time.

Superb club career too.

Mars Bar

Is it inevitable if we are debating about it?

keeponhurling

most caps only means you kept your place in the team for a long period, doesn't say whether the team was successful or whether you were a stand out player.

Most goals can be a way of comparing strikers, albeit limited.
Goals ratio is so important. I wouldn't expect goalies, defenders or midfielders to be matching Rooney's goal tally.

Thirdly it's rare a country has an obvious best ever player.
Who is England's greatest ever player to date? You could argue for a number of them. Similarly for Ireland.

But when Rooney retires he'll certainly be in the discussion

Ulysses Gaze

Whether you think it is fair or not, he will never be considered as good as Charlton or Moore to the general public or the majority of the tabloid media

Reason? He's never won an international competition or had a real standout tournament when at the peak of his club career.

Nerdlingr

Apart from Euro 2004 he's never done it on the 'big stage'. Part of England's golden generation that never realised their potential internationally. He's good,but not the greatest.

eigrod

Mushy wrote: »

Top 10 easily yeah.

Not so sure about that. Without thinking too much about it, I would put all of the following in a top 10 ahead of him :

(I never saw these 5 play but take it based on clips and written pieces, I would reckon all of the following would be in any top 10 before Rooney) :

Charlton, Moore, Lofthouse, Matthews, Banks

(Then, of the more recent era of those who I have seen, I would put these ahead of him) :

Lineker, Beardsley, Shearer, Adams, Terry, Shilton, Robson, Keegan, Francis

He's probably in the discussion (as another poster said) after that alright.

Nope, a good player, but I guess any good player would inevitably keep their place on the English team of recent years. In an era where a willing international player gets to play a lot more games against countries that didn't even exist until recent years, the goalscoring opportunities have greatly increased as well.

I'd have a number of players ahead of him in my time, from Shearer and Linekar to Scholes, Gascoigne, Robson, Shilton etc. And if you go back in time and include the Banks, Finney, Matthews, Charltons etc. not even sure he'd walk into a top 10. Top 20 maybe?

Nerdlingr

Ashley Cole was world class for England as well for number of years. Rarely if ever had a bad game for them.

wonderboysam

HELLLLLL NO

inforfun

Most caps is not something you should base "greatness" on.
Certainly not compared to players who played 30/40 years ago when there weren't 14 international games a year.

Even Aaron Winter was Dutch record holder for most caps a short while. 60% of those caps he was a sub coming on.

bucketybuck

Rooneys problem isn't what he has done for England, but what he hasn't done.

efb

What about Beckham?

CSF

I'm only 27 so I don't feel qualified to talk about greatest ever players especially for a country that won a World Cup 21 years before I was born, but Rooney has to be in the discussion as I feel he is the best England player of my lifetime

He'll inevitably be hampered in any discussion though by anti-United bias that creeps into pretty much every conversation involving United or Liverpool.

CSF

CSF wrote: »

He'll inevitably be hampered in any discussion though by anti-United bias that creeps into pretty much every conversation involving United or Liverpool.

And helped by the pro-United bias that creeps into pretty much every conversation involving United or Liverpool...

efb

For me David Beckham is. Some stellar performances in an England shirt

CSF

Deleted User wrote: »

And helped by the pro-United bias that creeps into pretty much every conversation involving United or Liverpool...

Probably, but usually the dissenting voices are heard most loudly.

adox

efb wrote: »

For me David Beckham is. Some stellar performances in an England shirt

Beckham as Englands greatest ever player? No chance.

Chucky the tree

CSF wrote: »

I'm only 27 so I don't feel qualified to talk about greatest ever players especially for a country that won a World Cup 21 years before I was born, but Rooney has to be in the discussion as I feel he is the best England player of my lifetime

He'll inevitably be hampered in any discussion though by anti-United bias that creeps into pretty much every conversation involving United or Liverpool.

I'd hazard a guess his inability to perform at pretty any major international tournament could also hamper him.

CSF

CSF wrote: »

Probably, but usually the dissenting voices are heard most loudly.

I don't like ManU. But thought Bryan Robson was outstanding. As was Scholes. I just don't see Rooney as being as combative and tough as one, and as technically gifted as the other...he's just...there a lot.

CSF

Chucky the tree wrote: »

I'd hazard a guess his inability to perform at pretty any major international tournament could also hamper him.

Usually that is just an argument brought out when people want to have a swipe at Messi or Ronaldo though and can't think of anything else to go with.

Rooney has done well at the international tournaments, not star performer of the tournament or anything, but as good as any England player has been in his time there.

In my lifetime there certainly isn't a player I would point to as being a star performer for England regularly in the major tournaments and it is the other England players he is up against rather than the Mullers and Ronaldos of the world who have taken a World Cup by storm.

caolfx

efb wrote: »

What about Beckham?

adox wrote: »

Beckham as Englands greatest ever player? No chance.

I wouldn't agree so vehemently, but I do agree.

I'd definitely put Beckham ahead of Rooney though.

Kharrell

Nope. He's never really looked the player at international level we saw at Euro 2004, and had he maintained that form for a lot of his England career, I don't think many would argue with him being one of the best English players of all time. He's been unfortunate with injuries though it must be said, 2010 springs to mind and managers managing the team incorrectly, going on star status to the detriment of the team, or injury stopping players dead in their tracks. Carrick, Scholes and Hargreaves are the first names I think of.

As an Englishman who's attended quite a few England games over the years, Ashley Cole has been England's best player over the last decade for me. Some might say Terry has been, but either way I think many English supporters would have both of them ahead of the tier of players next down, ie: Rooney, Gerrard and probably Beckham.

Utopia Parkway

Even if he breaks the goal scoring record I don't think he'll ever be considered England's greatest player. For all the goals in qualifying and friendlies I think the memory a lot of England fans will have of him is not performing at tournaments. Probably a bit harsh but that's the way fans are.

bucketybuck

CSF wrote: »

Rooney has done well at the international tournaments, not star performer of the tournament or anything, but as good as any England player has been in his time there.

"Englands greatest ever player, has done well at the international tournaments, not star performer of the tournament or anything, but as good as any England player has been in his time there".

Rather underwhelming isn't it.

eigrod

CSF wrote: »

Rooney has done well at the international tournaments, not star performer of the tournament or anything, but as good as any England player has been in his time there.

Ah here,

He was injured for most of the 2006 World Cup and failed to perform as a result and then got himself sent off in the QF.

They didn't qualify in 2008

And the whole squad were s**t in the 2010 World Cup finals in SA (booed off after Algeria game).

He shouldn't have played any of the group games in 2012 Euros after his sending off against Montenegro. Scored v Uruguay subsequently but don't recall him setting the tournament alight.

And the whole squad were s**t again in the 2014 World Cup finals.

So, basically he played reasonably well in 2004 Euros, and that's about it.

CSF

eigrod wrote: »

Ah here,

He was injured for most of the 2006 World Cup and failed to perform as a result and then got himself sent off in the QF.

They didn't qualify in 2008

And the whole squad were s**t in the 2010 World Cup finals in SA (booed off after Algeria game).

He shouldn't have played any of the group games in 2012 Euros after his sending off against Montenegro. Scored v Uruguay subsequently but don't recall him setting the tournament alight.

And the whole squad were s**t again in the 2014 World Cup finals.

So, basically he played reasonably well in 2004 Euros, and that's about it.

So you're agreeing with me, that nobody was particularly good and thus the bar is pretty low. I'm not championing Rooney as the king of international football or anything, just saying that he belongs in the discussion in terms of what has gone in my lifetime where nobody has really excelled

eigrod

CSF wrote: »

So you're agreeing with me, that nobody was particularly good and thus the bar is pretty low. I'm not championing Rooney as the king of international football or anything, just saying that he belongs in the discussion in terms of what has gone in my lifetime where nobody has really excelled

I fail to see how my post in any way concurs with your statement that "Rooney has done well at the international tournaments". He simply hasn't, bar maybe one.

Iused2likebusts

Of rooneys generation ashley cole had the best international career. Consistent throughout and had a number of very good tournaments. He was also one of the best LB's (top 3)in world football throughout the majority of his career. Something that couldnt be said about the rest of the so called golden generation. However with these things attacking players are always the ones that get the headlines/recognition.

Sir Gallagher

Grim reading for England fans, whatever way you look at it. :pac:

Duck Soup

Play enough games as a striker and eventually records will fall to you. I'm thinking of two different yardsticks apart from aggregate goals for the national team.

Goals:Minutes Ratio for England

1. Jimmy Greaves - Goal every 117 minutes.
2. Gary Lineker - Goal every 136 minutes.
3. Michael Owen - Goal every 155 minutes.
4. Wayne Rooney - Goal every 172 minutes.
5. Bobby Charlton - Game every 193 minutes.

But of course, over long careers it's difficult to assess quality of opposition etc.

The other metric is even more subjective. Simply whether Rooney is a big game player or not. How many times has he made that defining difference to a big game or tournament?

Speak Now

Booby Charlton is the greatest imo.

Iang87

I'd have a number of players ahead of him. I feel he never quite lived up to the potential he had at both club and international level

Bridge93

I think he's a brilliant player and one of England's best ever (stats speak for themselves in his case.) though not the best.
I think he's the victim of his own success so young and the inevitable media overhype that brings in Britain. The way the press went on when he was a teen, he was gonna be one of the world's greatest. A near impossible standard to reach but yet one he probably got held to. Hence why he appears to have never fully reached his potential when he may well have. Difficult to say hiw good a 16 should become.

anncoates

Duck Soup wrote: »

1. Jimmy Greaves - Goal every 117 minutes.
2. Gary Lineker - Goal every 136 minutes.
3. Michael Owen - Goal every 155 minutes.
4. Wayne Rooney - Goal every 172 minutes.
5. Bobby Charlton - Game every 193 minutes

Just to note wasn't Charlton a midfielder as opposed to all the rest there?

~Rebel~

Really doubt he'll be considered amongst the very greats, but he's had a strong contribution of course.

As far as goals and games are concerned though, he's benefitted from England's weakest competition up front for almost the entirety of his international career. It's never really mattered how his form was, he was always going to start by default because there simply haven't been other options.

Look back at the time when Fowler couldn't get a look in for what real strength up front was like.

Guy:Incognito

Slight tangent but he really should be chasing Michael Owens Englands goalscoring record at this stage, not Charltons.


Owen should have got ended his career with around 65.

Unless her leads England to silverware he won't be know as the greatest player. Even then it wouldn't be certain. He's on the slide as a player, past his peak.

Chrissybhoy

Definitely won't go down as the greatest. To note has he been involved in important game or tournament for England where you can say Rooney dragged England through that or did he do something magical in England's hour of need like Beckham vs Greece like Owen vs Argentina. He had a good Euro 2004 and got injured in quarters. But players like Shearer and lineker had good tournaments and have made more of an impact with England than Rooney.

To young for Charlton Greeves Moore etc

MR NINE

Why on earth would he be remembered as englands greatest player? I wasnt around in 66 but surely someone from that era should be considered seeing as they played a part in englands one major achievement as a footballing nation. From what I gather Charlton was the star though Im open to correction. Rooneys years with england have coincided with some fairly forgettable years for the national team. Not his fault necessarily, but he hasnt had too many exceptional performances for his country. If hes englands greatest ever then it really shows how **** england are in comparison with the other footballing superpowers

tastyt

I think Rooney is a strange case. I feel sorry for him really. He was hyped up way too much as a youngster as is the usual with the English media. The only way he could reach the heights they expected was to be a messi or a Ronaldo. So he was overrated then.

Now I actually feel he is underrated. He's a brilliant player trying to carry an absolute awful England team, the worst I've ever seen on his shoulders and the pressure is huge. That team simply is nowhere good enough to compete and it's definitely not Rooneys fault.

United fans don't adore him as much either after he asked for a transfer but he was ill advised and I think Ferguson ****ed him around a little bit. He is a great passer, finisher, works his arse off for his team mates and has an attitude on the pitch that every manager would love. Mourinho was desperate for him last year and that tells you something.

He was Uniteds best player when they were a joke last year but he still got more abuse than most. Possibly di Maria aside he is still United's best. Mata, kagawa, van persie, falcao,welbeck, januzaj. All these lads have been hailed as United's saviours and at one point or another it's been argued to forget Rooney and go with them but I believe that once again, come the end of the season it's Rooney who will show his worth to the club.

He's already had a great club career and a move to midfield in the near future may reinvent him for many years to come. I think he was built up to expectation and heights that he could never achieve and I think it's only when he retires that both United and England will recognise the world class footballer that they had on their hands.

LuckyLloyd

Iused2likebusts wrote: »

Of rooneys generation ashley cole had the best international career. Consistent throughout and had a number of very good tournaments. He was also one of the best LB's (top 3)in world football throughout the majority of his career. Something that couldnt be said about the rest of the so called golden generation. However with these things attacking players are always the ones that get the headlines/recognition.

Good shout imo - Cole has had an incredible career. Great player.

Chrissybhoy

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Good shout imo - Cole has had an incredible career. Great player.

I'd go with Beckham

El Weirdo

Looks like Rooney reads Boards and agrees with what a lot of you are saying:

Wayne Rooney is about to enter an illustrious club of centurions but does not think he can be regarded as an England great until he wins a tournament with the national side.

http://www.theguardian.com/football/2014/nov/12/wayne-rooney-england-great

ShooterSF

Deleted User wrote: »

And helped by the pro-United bias that creeps into pretty much every conversation involving United or Liverpool...

There will of course be bias from United fans (of which I am one) but most fans don't have anywhere near the same level of rose tinting in their glasses looking at Rooney compared to say someone like Cantona (and again I include myself there)

roanoke

MR NINE wrote: »

Why on earth would he be remembered as englands greatest player? I wasnt around in 66 but surely someone from that era should be considered seeing as they played a part in englands one major achievement as a footballing nation. From what I gather Charlton was the star though Im open to correction. Rooneys years with england have coincided with some fairly forgettable years for the national team. Not his fault necessarily, but he hasnt had too many exceptional performances for his country. If hes englands greatest ever then it really shows how **** england are in comparison with the other footballing superpowers

I'd imagine someone like Bobby Moore or Bobby Charlton would probably be ahead of Rooney.

From what I've read the success of England '66 team was as much down to tactics as talent, but those two were the kind of player that any nation of the time would have liked to have had.

sky88

Deleted User wrote: »

And helped by the pro-United bias that creeps into pretty much every conversation involving United or Liverpool...

To be honest with rooney there seems to be a lack of bias towards him from a lot of united fans and the slate him too quickly on any little mistake or bad game