city of sanctuary

Hijpo

I saw ciara Conway in the paper (suprise suprise) last week meeting with some gardai chap. I didn't get to read the article but noticed a line containing "Waterford as a city of sanctuary" and was wondering if anyone read the article or knew what she was up to?

Sorry for being so vague.

jayboi

Sweet lord whats she on about now

Dum_Dum

Hijpo wrote: »

.. "Waterford as a city of sanctuary" ..

It's doublespeak. It really means "Waterford as a dumping ground for Roma". Where people from all over the world can feel safe. Everyone say Ahhhhhhh. Or some-other left-wing nonsense.

Hijpo

Dum_Dum wrote: »

It's doublespeak. It really means "Waterford as a dumping ground for Roma". Where people from all over the world can feel safe. Everyone say Ahhhhhhh. Or some-other left-wing nonsense.

I googled it and city of sanctuary offers “a positive vision of a culture of hospitality for those in need of safety – refugees and asylum seekers”.

City of Sanctuary encourages communities to take pride in offering a place of safety for people whose lives are threatened.

“It’s a concept that at this point is spreading globally,” said Victoria Fradgely, one of the volunteers. “We felt it was time for it to start in Ireland. It’s starting in Dublin and hopefully it will spread. All we’re asking is for people to endorse the concept of City of Sanctuary.”

The Bowling Alley

We've been a city of sanctuary for some awful politicians for too long.

fiachr_a

city of sanctuary = 3rd highest crime in the country.

deisemum

fiachr_a wrote: »

city of sanctuary = 3rd highest crime in the country.

And top for sex crimes

burkey85

Are we really 3rd highest crime rate in the country?
Def not the highest for sex crimes anyway.

Hijpo

I think it was in 2012, i would doubt we reduced this or have been over taken. Then again it probably all goes on what was reported.
http://www.irishexaminer.com/crime/crimebycounty/waterford/

biko

Waterford is quite safe for a city its size.

Old stats http://www.irishexaminer.com/crime/crimebycounty/
In this report overview Waterford isn't even mentioned. https://www.osac.gov/pages/ContentReportDetails.aspx?cid=13690

Recent http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/crime/crime-nation-how-safe-is-your-area-30727076.html

fiachr_a

There was a map of Ireland in the newspaper last weekend with all the counties ranked for crime from 1 to 26. Waterford was 3!

7upfree

Hijpo wrote: »

I googled it and city of sanctuary offers “a positive vision of a culture of hospitality for those in need of safety – refugees and asylum seekers”.

City of Sanctuary encourages communities to take pride in offering a place of safety for people whose lives are threatened.

“It’s a concept that at this point is spreading globally,” said Victoria Fradgely, one of the volunteers. “We felt it was time for it to start in Ireland. It’s starting in Dublin and hopefully it will spread. All we’re asking is for people to endorse the concept of City of Sanctuary.”

What about the community whose lives are threatened?

MRnotlob606

Some of these lefties are doing my absolute nut in. what have they done for this city at all ? besides the usual rhetoric and shouting racist at anybody who dares to stand up against organised crime.

MRnotlob606

She might as well make the most of it because I don't think we'll be seeing here again after the general election.

BlaasForRafa

This is the link for those who want to read what she actually said, I do warn you that you may grind your teeth and simmer with anger while reading the utterly stupid and ridiculous ideas that her and O'Riordan come out with http://www.labour.ie/ciaraconway/news/14128720411165271.html

She hasn't a clue what her constituents actually think about the hogwash she spews out, well she'll find out at the next election when she gets kicked out of office. The city has enough problems without inviting in more bogus asylum seekers and beggers/thieves, that's the last thing we need.

O Riain

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

This is the link for those who want to read what she actually said, I do warn you that you may grind your teeth and simmer with anger while reading the utterly stupid and ridiculous ideas that her and O'Riordan come out with http://www.labour.ie/ciaraconway/news/14128720411165271.html

She hasn't a clue what her constituents actually think about the hogwash she spews out, well she'll find out at the next election when she gets kicked out of office. The city has enough problems without inviting in more bogus asylum seekers and beggers/thieves, that's the last thing we need.

I think she's just as useless as the next person but I see absolutely nothing wrong with what she is saying there?

Yes Waterford does have a problem with Roma Gypsies but they are not here as asylum seekers, they are in the EU, so can come and go as they like.

The conditions created within the direct provision system are nothing short of disgraceful and it is shocking what some of these people have to put up with after having to flee their own countries. If you are gonna let a few dodgey Roma gypsies convince you that the people within the direct provision system are not suffering then you are exactly the type of person that the media was talking about when covering the protest against the Romas.

jayboi

I wonder if we could come to an agreement with Ciara, we wont say anything about her and she wont say anything about Waterford for the next year and a half.

Both us and her could admit we made mistakes, us voting for her and her running as a TD. Call it quits if you would.

fricatus

I wonder would she like to work on getting us a university of sanctuary... :rolleyes:

navalus

Asylum seekers are supposed to seek asylum in the first EU country they enter, how many do they enter to get to Ireland ? thousands leaving to find work and thousands left in .

fiachr_a

navalus wrote: »

Asylum seekers are supposed to seek asylum in the first EU country they enter, how many do they enter to get to Ireland ? thousands leaving to find work and thousands left in .

They swim from Africa to the coast of Spain, get picked up by empty fishing trawlers on the way to Ireland, and then to make room for all the stolen fish they get dumped off in Ireland!

7upfree

O Riain wrote: »

I think she's just as useless as the next person but I see absolutely nothing wrong with what she is saying there?

Yes Waterford does have a problem with Roma Gypsies but they are not here as asylum seekers, they are in the EU, so can come and go as they like.

The conditions created within the direct provision system are nothing short of disgraceful and it is shocking what some of these people have to put up with after having to flee their own countries. If you are gonna let a few dodgey Roma gypsies convince you that the people within the direct provision system are not suffering then you are exactly the type of person that the media was talking about when covering the protest against the Romas.

Are the conditions worse than what they allegedly fled from?

BlaasForRafa

O Riain wrote: »

The conditions created within the direct provision system are nothing short of disgraceful and it is shocking what some of these people have to put up with after having to flee their own countries. If you are gonna let a few dodgey Roma gypsies convince you that the people within the direct provision system are not suffering then you are exactly the type of person that the media was talking about when covering the protest against the Romas.

More than 90% of Asylum seekers are bogus, they are economic migrants who thought by declaring themselves asylum seekers would get them into the country so they could work. The main thing that's wrong with the Irish asylum system isn't direct provision, it's that the deportation process is so unbelievably slow.

O Riain

Jaysis... I was behind the Roma gypsy protests. If somebody is causing trouble and the Gardaí are not doing anything then I guess a show of strength is required in order to send the message that the people won't stand for it.

This thread has now been diverted from the trouble making Romas onto the Africans and it's turned a bit racist to be honest. If you're the people that were involved in the protest then I guess the media were right all along.

Not very cool.

longshanks

O Riain wrote: »

Jaysis... I was behind the Roma gypsy protests. If somebody is causing trouble and the Gardaí are not doing anything then I guess a show of strength is required in order to send the message that the people won't stand for it.

This thread has now been diverted from the trouble making Romas onto the Africans and it's turned a bit racist to be honest. If you're the people that were involved in the protest then I guess the media were right all along.

Not very cool.

Are you going to organize a protest outside the house of the (rhymes with cloaks) traveller gang any time soon?
A show of strength, or whatever?

Hijpo

Is it just about direct provisions for the people already in the city or does it aim to increase capacity?

I think the biggest worry of this "sanctuary" business is that, let's be honest about it, there isn't much in the way of making sure they are above board and if trouble does erupt there is no quick way of quelling it.

The fire is already burning in the city through different groups, its quiet possible people will slip through that will fuel it further.

O Riain

longshanks wrote: »

Are you going to organize a protest outside the house of the (rhymes with cloaks) traveller gang any time soon?
A show of strength, or whatever?

I wouldn't do it in the same way I wouldn't organize one outside the house of the Romas. I'd have more problem with the travellers to be honest then I would with those blow ins!

I love how you pick on my post hinting at apparent Racism when I'm the one saying this thread is after getting a bit racist!

7upfree

O Riain wrote: »

I wouldn't do it in the same way I wouldn't organize one outside the house of the Romas. I'd have more problem with the travellers to be honest then I would with those blow ins!

I love how you pick on my post hinting at apparent Racism when I'm the one saying this thread is after getting a bit racist!

Hmmm. When that "racism" card is played it really reflects poorly on your argument - and not just you.

longshanks

O Riain wrote: »

I wouldn't do it in the same way I wouldn't organize one outside the house of the Romas. I'd have more problem with the travellers to be honest then I would with those blow ins!

I love how you pick on my post hinting at apparent Racism when I'm the one saying this thread is after getting a bit racist!

I never mentioned racism. I asked are you going to organise a protest outside the well known traveller gangs house as you said you organised the protest against the Roma.
What is your criteria for organising protests? Which gangs get a free pass? And why?

O Riain

longshanks wrote: »

I never mentioned racism. I asked are you going to organise a protest outside the well known traveller gangs house as you said you organised the protest against the Roma.
What is your criteria for organising protests? Which gangs get a free pass? And why?

Ah jaysis! I didn't mean that I actually organized it. I meant I was behind it, as in I supported it.

As for you 7upfree, ignoring the plight that people are suffering in the direct provision system and alleging that they are not indeed actual 'asylum seekers' is ignorant at best and racist at worst.

You're like the old granny who was speaking to Mary up the town who was told by her friend Bridie that she seen an African woman out the social welfare getting a free car, a free house, €1000 a week dole and STILL wasn't happy.

As useless as the TDs mentioned above actually are, all they were calling for was for society to embrace asylum seekers more. Invite them to join sports clubs, get involved in community activities etc. etc.

They were not saying we should send out a beacon to all the low life scum to come and rob everything we have and turn the city into a hell hole like everyone here is making out.

Can I just re-iterate that I consider her to be the worst TD we have ever had by a country mile.

navalus

This country is broke , when we are back to the days of the Celtic Tiger then and only then should we leave thousands in, why should thousands have to leave to find work , and thousands be left in ?

fiachr_a

Because Mary Harney went to Poland years back looking for foreign workers.

7upfree

longshanks wrote: »

I never mentioned racism. I asked are you going to organise a protest outside the well known traveller gangs house as you said you organised the protest against the Roma.
What is your criteria for organising protests? Which gangs get a free pass? And why?

Do we really need to take more criminals in? I think that's what his criteria is.

RobYourBuilder

O Riain wrote: »

As for you 7upfree, ignoring the plight that people are suffering in the direct provision system and alleging that they are not indeed actual 'asylum seekers' is ignorant at best and racist at worst.

No it's not it. He is correct in his assertions.

"A small but well placed minority of commentators have sought to create the impression that Ireland's treatment of asylum seekers is harsh and unfair. They have consistently concealed the real facts from the Irish people. Moreover, they have sought to create the impression that anyone who points out the true situation is engaging in political racism. They hint at international comparisons which do not exist.

They refuse to address the very large abuse of asylum protection in Ireland. They claim to believe that it is wrong to point out what is happening lest it create prejudice against genuine asylum seekers. They are engaging in a form of verbal intimidation of those who would tell the truth."

Dealing fairly but efficiently with the large number of unfounded asylum claims which are being received which represent over 90% of the total asylum applications being processed annually

http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/Pages/PR07000171

Over 90% of them are bogus.

7upfree

O Riain wrote: »

As for you 7upfree, ignoring the plight that people are suffering in the direct provision system and alleging that they are not indeed actual 'asylum seekers' is ignorant at best and racist at worst.

Ya see, when you descend to comments like that, you've already undermined your own argument.

Robyourbuilder has put it far more succinctly.

"Racism". Sweet Jesus.:rolleyes:

7upfree

RobYourBuilder wrote: »

http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/Pages/PR07000171

Over 90% of them are bogus.

Great find my friend.

navalus

Yes a very great find .

invalid

Not wishing to enter the argument but that statement was made in 2005, 9 years ago. Time has most assuredly moved on, it is now irrelevant is they are real or bogus, 9 years is far to long to let anyone's life be in such a limbo.

RobYourBuilder

invalid wrote: »

Not wishing to enter the argument but that statement was made in 2005, 9 years ago. Time has most assuredly moved on, it is now irrelevant is they are real or bogus, 9 years is far to long to let anyone's life be in such a limbo.

They get a decision on their asylum claims within three months of their application. Problem is, it's not a decision that they want. Start with ORAC, get a refusal. Go to RAT, get a refusal. Then seek subsidiary protection or leave to remain. Get a refusal. Seek a Judicial review. Get a refusal. Whack in an asylum claim under your childs name and around the merry go round we dance again.

You want to award people for attempting to exhaust the system. They are free to leave at any given time.

From your post, I'm taking it that you want to give them an amnesty. Very egalitarian of you but not very rational. Where will they work? Where will they live? Will they need upskilling and education? Welfare? Amnesties always serve to do one thing; encourage more to arrive and chance their arm. It won't solve the problem, but exacerbate it.

invalid

Damnit, wasn't going to get drawn in but how and ever. To answer your questions, firstly I do believe in equality and I am quite rational.
And in fairness I do not believe in an amnesty per say, and if this was 2005 I would be totally against it. But it is not it is 2014 and we have locked people up are exorbitant cost for years and now its time to stop and actually stray to act rationally. And teh opnly rational, fair and honest thing to do now is to give these people there life back

As for this exacerbating a problem you must first see a problem. I do not.

Xenophobia is not a positive emotion. It is expressed by arguments such as crime, social welfare fraud, unemployment and protection of our culture. These are smoke screens for fear, cultural stagnation and in many cases racism.

I see no problem in a properly structured and monitored method of migration; the Irish have been doing it for centuries (that is migrating, not structured). I just believe we should have a fair and honest structure that offers protections to the state against those who arrive but are not willing to contribute and protections those who are seeking a better life for themselves and their children. I believe that racial diversity and the integration of new cultures can only strengthen this republic, not weaken it. I believe that the Irish culture can, as it has before, withstand the introduction of other cultures, ideas, foods and peoples and be stronger for it.

I have never seen in any debate that we should restrict the influx of Germans, English, Dutch, French or Americans to this state, only those for east Europe, Asia and Africa. Let’s get real about this, if we want to have a better country, and a least a better looking country we should encourage migration here. And to take up your last point again, what about the undocumented Irish in the USA, should they be deported? Do they contribute nothing to the USA? Are they just abusing the system for economic gain?

Of course not.



They are white.

Immigration in Ireland – 2013 in Review

Stories from Direct Provision #1

Stories from Direct Provision #2

RobYourBuilder

And in fairness I do not believe in an amnesty per say, and if this was 2005 I would be totally against it. But it is not it is 2014 and we have locked people up are exorbitant cost for years and now its time to stop and actually stray to act rationally. And teh opnly rational, fair and honest thing to do now is to give these people there life back

Cool. Anyone in DP has been refused refugee status, subsidiary protection or leave to remain because their claims are unfounded. 800 are currently fighting deportation orders. If they stay, will they be able to provide for themselves or will they be reliant on the state?

Suggest a cheaper method of dealing with asylum other than dp. I've yet to hear one.

As for this exacerbating a problem you must first see a problem. I do not. 

Bogus asylum seekers are very much a problem. EU wide. Record numbers of illegals/asylum seekers are landing in Malta, Italy, and Spain. They don't want to stay there, but head to western Europe. Give an amnesty here and word will spread pretty quickly. Asylum numbers are already up 40% on last year.

I see no problem in a properly structured and monitored method of migration; the Irish have been doing it for centuries (that is migrating, not structured). I just believe we should have a fair and honest structure that offers protections to the state against those who arrive but are not willing to contribute and protections those who are seeking a better life for themselves and their children

Billions of people live on less than $2 a day. They would be better off in Ireland. How many should we take in? Is there a limit? Where will they work? Will they need medical care? Somewhere to live? A welfare payment? Education? Language classes? Who shall pay for all this?

You are aware being from a developing country or being poor is not grounds for asylum, right?

I just believe we should have a fair and honest structure that offers protections to the state against those who arrive but are not willing to contribute and protections those who are seeking a better life for themselves and their children. I believe that racial diversity and the integration of new cultures can only strengthen this republic, not weaken it.

You can believe in whatever the hell you want. Studies show the opposite;

Robert Putnam, Diversity in Communities wrote:

In recent years, Putnam has been engaged in a comprehensive study of the relationship between trust within communities and their ethnic diversity. His conclusion based on over 40 cases and 30 000 people within the United States is that, other things being equal, more diversity in a community is associated with less trust both between and within ethnic groups. Although limited to American data, it puts into question both the contact hypothesis and conflict theory in inter-ethnic relations. According to conflict theory, distrust between the ethnic groups will rise with diversity, but not within a group. In contrast, contact theory proposes that distrust will decline as members of different ethnic groups get to know and interact with each other. Putnam describes people of all races, sex, socioeconomic statuses, and ages as "hunkering down," avoiding engagement with their local community—both among different ethnic groups and within their own ethnic group. Even when controlling for income inequality and crime rates, two factors which conflict theory states should be the prime causal factors in declining inter-ethnic group trust, more diversity is still associated with less communal trust.

Lowered trust in areas with high diversity is also associated with:

●Lower confidence in local government, local leaders and the local news media.

●Lower political efficacy – that is, confidence in one's own influence.

●Lower frequency of registering to vote, but more interest and knowledge about politics and more participation in protest marches and social reform groups.

●Higher political advocacy, but lower expectations that it will bring about a desirable result.Less expectation that others will cooperate to solve dilemmas of collective action (e.g., voluntary conservation to ease a water or energy shortage).

●Less likelihood of working on a community project.

●Less likelihood of giving to charity or volunteering.

●Fewer close friends and confidants.

●Less happiness and lower perceived quality of life.

●More time spent watching television and more agreement that "television is my most important form of entertainment".

Putnam published his data set from this study in 2001[4][5] and subsequently published the full paper in 2007.[6]

Putnam has been criticized for the lag between his initial study and his publication of his article. In 2006, Putnam was quoted in the Financial Times as saying he had delayed publishing the article until he could "develop proposals to compensate for the negative effects of diversity" (quote from John Lloyd of Financial Times).[7] In 2007, writing in City Journal, John Leoquestioned whether this suppression of publication was ethical behavior for a scholar, noting that "Academics aren’t supposed to withhold negative data until they can suggest antidotes to their findings."[8] On the other hand, Putnam did release the data in 2001 and publicized this fact.[9] The proposals that the paper contains are located in a section called "Becoming Comfortable with Diversity" at the end of his article. This section has been criticized for lacking the rigor of the preceding sections. According to Ilana Mercer "Putnam concludes the gloomy facts with a stern pep talk".[10]

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_D._Putnam#Diversity_and_trust_within_communities

I have never seen in any debate that we should restrict the influx of Germans, English, Dutch, French or Americans to this state

Probably because they don't take the p*ss or falsely claim asylum. For what it's worth, an American asylum seeker was deported and banned from reentering the state by former Minister for Justice, Alan Shatter. He was white, fwiw.

Let’s get real about this, if we want to have a better country, and a least a better looking country we should encourage migration here. 

Genetics, nice.

According to the United Nations report Trends in International Migrant Stock: The 2013 Revision, we already have one of the highest foreign born populations in the EU. Higher than Germany, France, the UK, and the Netherlands. Even higher than the US.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_foreign-born_population

And to take up your last point again, what about the undocumented Irish in the USA, should they be deported? Do they contribute nothing to the USA? Are they just abusing the system for economic gain?

That is up to the citizens of America. I don't support illegals, be they Irish or otherwise. If they are apprehended by ICE, they will be arrested, brought to county or a detention centre, shackled up, left for a week or two, go to court and get deported. No arseboxing around, sob stories or asylum claims entertained there.

7upfree

invalid wrote: »

And to take up your last point again, what about the undocumented Irish in the USA, should they be deported? Do they contribute nothing to the USA? Are they just abusing the system for economic gain?Of course not.

In comparison to Ireland, what social welfare benefits do they receive from Uncle Sam?

navalus

I never knew we had one of the highest foreign born populations in the EU, if this continues will we be a minority in our own Country ?like the native American and Aboriginal Australians.

mollymosfet

MRnotlob606 wrote: »

Some of these lefties are doing my absolute nut in. what have they done for this city at all ? besides the usual rhetoric and shouting racist at anybody who dares to stand up against organised crime.

the crime you're seeing amongst the roma only exists due to centuries of deeply racist persecution that you're helping sustain with posts like this.

so yes, racism. just because you don't understand why you're racist doesn't mean you're not racist.

mollymosfet

navalus wrote: »

I never knew we had one of the highest foreign born populations in the EU, if this continues will we be a minority in our own Country ?like the native American and Aboriginal Australians.

Oh well, then we can just move to any number of other primarily white countries that killed and persecuted groups like the native americans and aboriginal australians.

(And the Roma).

mollymosfet

Cool. Anyone in DP has been refused refugee status, subsidiary protection or leave to remain because their claims are unfounded.

I'm sick of hearing this. This relies on the system being fair. This relies on the idea that there isn't any degree of inherent racism or ignorance in Irish society causing these claims to be viewed as "unfounded". Claimed being refused doesn't mean anything inherently. The state isn't automatically right and the claimee isn't automatically wrong. There is literally no reason to believe this outside of outright xenophobia. Our state has been so unreliable in representing our interests, what makes you think it's any better with asylum seekers?

mollymosfet

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

More than 90% of Asylum seekers are bogus, they are economic migrants who thought by declaring themselves asylum seekers would get them into the country so they could work. The main thing that's wrong with the Irish asylum system isn't direct provision, it's that the deportation process is so unbelievably slow.

[Citation Needed]

navalus

Can you answer me this Molly how can they be described as "Asylum seekers " who enter this country, as I said before how many EU countries do they enter to get to Ireland ? By EU law they are supposed to seek Asylum in the first EU country they enter. The country doesn't have a bottomless pit of money to support people who live here never mind the ones left in every year. Ah I see the Racist card used against those you do not agree with, was wondering when that card would be used.

mollymosfet

The "Racist card" card is really old and needs to stop. People need to learn to examine their internal biases instead of presuming themselves to be saintly and above that. Most people are racist to a degree since we're raised in a whites first culture, and that needs to be pointed out. So get over it.

If you're asking such an elementary question it's pretty clear there's a complex answer. If their charlatanism was that obvious, then even the Irish system would catch it. There are reasons why that happens, but that would regard you to care about the lives and life experiences of Asylum seekers to hear them out, which you do not.

jayboi

mollymosfet wrote: »

The "Racist card" card is really old and needs to stop. People need to learn to examine their internal biases instead of presuming themselves to be saintly and above that. Most people are racist to a degree since we're raised in a whites first culture, and that needs to be pointed out. So get over it.

If you're asking such an elementary question it's pretty clear there's a complex answer. If their charlatanism was that obvious, then even the Irish system would catch it. There are reasons why that happens, but that would regard you to care about the lives and life experiences of Asylum seekers to hear them out, which you do not.

In all fairness that is some sweeping statement to make about being brought up in whites first culture and your completely out of order.
You must have some sort of personal issue or agenda for you to go finger pointing and pontificating to others on this forum when you do worse with a totally unfounded assessment of Irish society, culture and education. It's you who has the problem here not everyone else.

mollymosfet

That's not a sweeping statement. It's a fact. I'm pointing out a flaw in our culture, so it's inherently a generalisation.

My "personal agenda" is that you're saying ****ed up racist **** about my friends. You are racists. You are bad people who are selfish with narrow world views and refuse to educate yourselves because you feel threatened and that's all that matters. The problem is not with me.

You don't get to complain about me making generalisations about who is or isn't racist when most of you in this thread ARE ACTUALLY RACIST to begin with. You are prejudiced and hateful against the Rromani people. This is a fact. You are racist.

Status Offline

If you weren't so overly aggressive your points might be received a bit better. My suggestion, go back to Tumbler until you mature enough to actually debate with people rather than hurling insults at people based on your cause de jour.