Have i ruined a classic or kept it from the scrap heap ?

Fat Nav

Hi all,
I am starting to panic here as a couple of years ago I totally rebuilt and modernised my dad's old hilman hunter.
Basically my dad's health had gone downhill and was no longer able to use a non power steering or manual geared car.
His old 1977 hilman hunter had seen better days and I decided to restore it for him but with a twist, a big twist.
I stuck in a opel omega 2.5 turbo diesel c/w its automatic gearbox, driveshaft and back axle(diff,drives) and brake set up.
Basically after I was finished I had changed or modified everything about the car to the extent that only the shell and anything outside is original.
My father loves the car and now has all the creature comforts he could want.
So now im wondering will it now pass a nct as im worried it wont be treated as classic car anymore as its more 1999 than 1977 after all the modifications ive made.

alastair

Fat Nav wrote: »

Hi all,
I am starting to panic here as a couple of years ago I totally rebuilt and modernised my dad's old hilman hunter.
Basically my dad's health had gone downhill and was no longer able to use a non power steering or manual geared car.
His old 1977 hilman hunter had seen better days and I decided to restore it for him but with a twist, a big twist.
I stuck in a opel omega 2.5 turbo diesel c/w its automatic gearbox, driveshaft and back axle(diff,drives) and brake set up.
Basically after I was finished I had changed or modified everything about the car to the extent that only the shell and anything outside is original.
My father loves the car and now has all the creature comforts he could want.
So now im wondering will it now pass a nct as im worried it wont be treated as classic car anymore as its more 1999 than 1977 after all the modifications ive made.

If it's a '77 car, it doesn't need to do an NCT. If they do introduce a 'classic' NCT for '77 cars, it'll be assessed on things we don't know yet, but as long as the chassis is original, you'll probably be grand, regardless of all the modifications. I doubt the 'classic NCT', should it come to pass, will care about originality - just safety.

kev1.3s

Some will no doubt disagree but what they don't know and all that, anyway the age is determined by the chassis and not the engine and box here in Ireland as far as I'm aware. As for weather you've destroyed a classic or not is subjective, I wouldn't be a purist by any stretch and I'm sure there are many who wouldn't approve of dropping in a diesel but in my opinion if you're father can get a bit more enjoyment out of his car because of the modifactiins you've made then it's a classic saved.
Hope he has many more years enjoyment with her.

Capri

Fair play to you for doing the conversion, your Dad's happy and still motoring so that alone outweighs any 'legal ' issues - happy motoring to him.

AFIR the South African Hunter had a Peugeot engine

The new owner in Britain, Peugeot, established a new contract whereby Iran Khodro would manufacture the Paykan with the same body panels but Peugeot 504 engines and suspension, for six more years. This deal has a similarity to one in South Africa, where Hunters were once built with locally made Peugeot 404 engines (from which the 504 units evolved) to meet strict local-content laws applicable in the late 1960s.

http://www.paykanhunter.com/2010/10/bardo.html

ianobrien

OP, Hunters not my cup of tea but fair play for doing something different.

kev1.3s

How about some pics?

The Big Red Fella

pics please and well done with getting it on the road!

carchaeologist

alastair wrote: »

If it's a '77 car, it doesn't need to do an NCT. If they do introduce a 'classic' NCT for '77 cars, it'll be assessed on things we don't know yet, but as long as the chassis is original, you'll probably be grand, regardless of all the modifications. I doubt the 'classic NCT', should it come to pass, will care about originality - just safety.

I think you are wrong there.
Point three of the 'definition of a vehicle of historical interest' as laid out in the NCT consultation is as follows.
'The car must be historically preserved and maintained in its original state having not undergone substantial changes to the technical characteristics of its main components'

There is more to the consultation document than a yes or no for an NCT.

The above car is heavily modified with modern components. It must have had metal work also to fit the different mechanical components in.
I can see a situation based on reading between the lines of the consultation document arising in the future where only a vintage car by definition will be awarded the vintage tax rate. A car that is much modified from its original construction may not be eligible for the same rate and may also be liable for a different sort of test regime than a vintage car.

Watch this space....

galwaytt

carchaeologist wrote: »

I think you are wrong there.
Point three of the 'definition of a vehicle of historical interest' as laid out in the NCT consultation is as follows.
'The car must be historically preserved and maintained in its original state having not undergone substantial changes to the technical characteristics of its main components'

There is more to the consultation document than a yes or no for an NCT.

The above car is heavily modified with modern components. It must have had metal work also to fit the different mechanical components in.
I can see a situation based on reading between the lines of the consultation document arising in the future where only a vintage car by definition will be awarded the vintage tax rate. A car that is much modified from its original construction may not be eligible for the same rate and may also be liable for a different sort of test regime than a vintage car.

Watch this space....

Until such time as if - if - any NCT might even apply to his Dad's Hunter, then all the above is conjecture - the consultation document/process is exactly that - a consultation document. It's not law by a long shot, and it contains several options, several of which would still see the Hunter exempt.

As it stands there is no issue, and the OP has nothing to worry about. He should tell his insurer, and he can advise Shannon of the engine change, but that's about the extent of it.

corktina

on wheeler dealers the other night, Mike was in Brazil and they have a system there where if your classic is more than 80% original you get a black number plate which increases the value (and has other benefits no doubt). We could see something like this here perhaps, in which case you'll be sunk OP, but enjoy in the meantime. Really important to tell your Insurance Co though

alastair

galwaytt wrote: »

Until such time as if - if - any NCT might even apply to his Dad's Hunter, then all the above is conjecture - the consultation document/process is exactly that - a consultation document. It's not law by a long shot, and it contains several options, several of which would still see the Hunter exempt.

As it stands there is no issue, and the OP has nothing to worry about. He should tell his insurer, and he can advise Shannon of the engine change, but that's about the extent of it.

Precisely. If there was an a NCT rolled out for classics, it's rather unlikely that they would have additional originality requirements placed on them, that modern cars do not. If I decide to swap a seven litre V8 into a 2008 Ford Focus and brought it in for it's NCT, they will, at most, just check that the engine corresponds with the VLC, and do the tests as normal. It's not going to be any different for another car, just based on age.

kev1.3s

alastair wrote: »

Precisely. If there was an a NCT rolled out for classics, it's rather unlikely that they would have additional originality requirements placed on them, that modern cars do not. If I decide to swap a seven litre V8 into a 2008 Ford Focus and brought it in for it's NCT, they will, at most, just check that the engine corresponds with the VLC, and do the tests as normal. It's not going to be any different for another car, just based on age.

Not necessarily, I had an e46 3 series that I had to change the engine in, when I said to the mechanic that I was going to change the engine no on the log book so there would be no question at NCT time he just laughed and said yeah right.
I never had a problem at any test after that.

alastair

kev1.3s wrote: »

Not necessarily, I had an e46 3 series that I had to change the engine in, when I said to the mechanic that I was going to change the engine no on the log book so there would be no question at NCT time he just laughed and said yeah right.
I never had a problem at any test after that.

That's my point. The most that they might do is check that the swapped engine was registered on the log book.

Fat Nav

Sorry no pictures to hand as I am working out of the country for a few months but will stick up a few when I am back home.
The engine change was/is registered with Shannon and his insurance company were informed of modifications to the car along with a engineers report for the work.
The chassis was strengthened and other than a few different mounting points was not modified much.
After saying all that I don't regret doing the conversion as I learned a lot doing it and my dad gets to keep driving and enjoying his hunter for the moment at least.

gyppo

Getting back to the OP's question:

The basic model Hillman Hunter was a fairly ordinary car - I'd go so far as to say it was mediocre.
If you have the ability to retrofit a more modern engine and drivetrain, and make it a more usable and enjoyable car you could use on an everyday basis, fair play to you.

However, if you started off with something that was rare/special, I'd say you'd be a heathen to modify it.:)

Fat Nav

Hi all,
Thanks for the reply's.
Sorry I have no pictures to hand as I am out of the country working for a few months but will post up a few when I am back home.
Shannon were notified of engine change and insurance company were told of all modifications and provided with a engineers report for the work.
I don't regret doing the conversion as I learned a lot doing it and my dad gets to keep on driving and enjoying his hunter for the time being at least.
I think if the car loses its cheap tax ill just pay the tax as its worth it to see the auld lad with a smile on his face, elbow out the window and steering with his little finger lol

Fat Nav

gyppo wrote: »

Getting back to the OP's question:

The basic model Hillman Hunter was a fairly ordinary car - I'd go so far as to say it was mediocre.
If you have the ability to retrofit a more modern engine and drivetrain, and make it a more usable and enjoyable car you could use on an everyday basis, fair play to you.

However, if you started off with something that was rare/special, I'd say you'd be a heathen to modify it.

To be honest the hunter was for many auld farmers the second tractor, they couldn't of been that bad ha ha.
I quite liked driving the hunter and only reason I butchered it was to keep it on the road for me dad as he needed a auto with power steering.
I used the omega running gear as it was cheap and reliable.

mister gullible

Friend of mine had a Hunter with a Perkins 4108 diesel engine in it nearly 30 years ago so you ain't doing anything new!

apollo440

gyppo wrote: »

Getting back to the OP's question:

The basic model Hillman Hunter was a fairly ordinary car - I'd go so far as to say it was mediocre.
If you have the ability to retrofit a more modern engine and drivetrain, and make it a more usable and enjoyable car you could use on an everyday basis, fair play to you.

However, if you started off with something that was rare/special, I'd say you'd be a heathen to modify it.:)

Absolutely right.

I'm new to the forum, I came across this thread and I found it interesting. Modifying a Hunter is all right (unless it was some kind of time-warp, low-mileage "driven by a granny" preserved model, which should be kept in its original state). I wouldn't do it on an Alfa Romeo, for example - because on something like an Alfa, when you change the engine and gearbox you effectively "kill" the soul of the car.

That said, there are some high-end restoration firms that offer modernized versions of classics such as the Jaguar MK2. From what I've read the results are absolutely brilliant - but the jury is still out on whether it is a sacrilege to "modernize" such timeless pieces. Any opinions on that?

beauf

Sounds cool tbh.

quietsailor

OP - can you hang onto and store the original parts. Maybe clean them up, properly preserve them for long term storage and then stick them in a shed out of the way -- that way you've (nearly*) the best of both worlds;

Car at present keeps a smile on your dads face
you've all the bits to have a numbers matching classic in the future

* = you mention changing/welding in new mountings - you'd have to change them back if you restore her

hi5

Even a modified classic will become a classic in itself all in good time, it will be a reflection and representative of the times that were in it.

In 50 years time when we're all cruising around in our perpetual motion powered hovercars the diesel converted Hunter will be a big topic of conversation:)

Nekarsulm

mister gullible wrote: »

Friend of mine had a Hunter with a Perkins 4108 diesel engine in it nearly 30 years ago so you ain't doing anything new!

This was a common enough conversion. Remember getting brought to school in a converted hunter. The owner was a farmer (surprise) and the back parcel shelf would be covered in tools........

Fat Nav

quietsailor wrote: »

OP - can you hang onto and store the original parts. Maybe clean them up, properly preserve them for long term storage and then stick them in a shed out of the way -- that way you've (nearly*) the best of both worlds;

Car at present keeps a smile on your dads face
you've all the bits to have a numbers matching classic in the future

* = you mention changing/welding in new mountings - you'd have to change them back if you restore her

We kept the original engine and 4 speed box and everything else we removed and kept them stored in the back of the garage to be refitted in the future to bring it back to original.


In fact I've been buying extra original parts ( clutch, carpets, trims ) and the like to bring her back to as new as possible when the time comes to go back to standard and keep her on the road.


All the changes we made are reversible with a bit of work and time, lots of time but hopefully it will be a long time before my Da is finished driving around his hunter .

Alfasudcrazy

Even if you are deemed to have ruined it by some purist Hunter fan its hardly the end of the world is it. Even original good condition Hunters don't command much money. Its great that you went to such trouble so that your dad could still enjoy his hunter. Fair play.

We put power steering on our massey Ferguson too so that my dad could still use it at 86 years. Sadly shortly after getting it back he had a stroke and now can't even drive his car.