GUI Survey, CONGU Handicaps.

Norfolk Enchants_

Less of been an armchair expert and sitting on the fence:pac::pac:, have your say here in the GUI/CONGU handicap survey.

Dr_Colossus

Survey complete, of course nothing in the survey regarding team events and their effect on the handicapping system so added to below to the notes at the end:

Handicap system needs to incorporate team events and subsequent handicap adjustments to the winners (reductions only). Team events are adversely impacting on the equality of the handicapping system resulting in individuals specialising in team events in pursuit of lucrative prizes with over inflated handicaps.

It's been years since I played in a team event partly due to the belief that I don't have an equitable chance due to the number of specialists and partly due to the fact that if I/we were to play well it wouldn't have any impact on our handicaps. It's been singles qualifying only for me and I do enjoy them and the challenge of playing against the course.

PARlance

Took that survey a month or so ago as they had it as a prompt on golfnet.
Was excited to see it but....Felt more annoyed with the GUI after it then I did beforehand.

As Dr. C alludes to, the survey imo is heavily swayed by confirmation/myside bias on the GUIs part.

Norfolk Enchants_

Dr_Colossus wrote: »

Survey complete, of course nothing in the survey regarding team events and their effect on the handicapping system so added to below to the notes at the end:

Handicap system needs to incorporate team events and subsequent handicap adjustments to the winners (reductions only). Team events are adversely impacting on the equality of the handicapping system resulting in individuals specialising in team events in pursuit of lucrative prizes with over inflated handicaps.

It's been years since I played in a team event partly due to the belief that I don't have an equitable chance due to the number of specialists and partly due to the fact that if I/we were to play well it wouldn't have any impact on our handicaps. It's been singles qualifying only for me and I do enjoy them and the challenge of playing against the course.

Dr_Colossus there is system in place for dealling with team events, essentially every notable score that is not covered by the Golfnet must be reported to your home club, notable is described as been placed i.e. 1st, 2nd, 3rd etc. and any singles scores that beats SSS, e.g. society scores.
It's up to the individual to report these scores, so it relies on the honesty and the intregrity of the individual, I'm not sure what else the GUI or Clubs can do to implement this.

Norfolk Enchants_

PARlance wrote: »

Took that survey a month or so ago as they had it as a prompt on golfnet.
Was excited to see it but....Felt more annoyed with the GUI after it then I did beforehand.

As Dr. C alludes to, the survey imo is heavily swayed by confirmation/myside bias on the GUIs part.

I disagree, there's plenty of opportunity to put forward any ideas/suggestion you may have to improve the system overall.
Also alot of people seem to think the system is broke, personally I don't think it, it's more a case of a few individuals that abuse the system are "broken" or corrupt if you like and potentially spoil it for others.

PARlance

Norfolk Enchants_ wrote: »

I disagree, there's plenty of opportunity to put forward any ideas/suggestion you may have to improve the system overall.
Also alot of people seem to think the system is broke, personally I don't think it, it's more a case of a few individuals that abuse the system are "broken" or corrupt if you like and potentially spoil it for others.

That's true in fairness re the bad apples, and I did send an email afterwards on the points (and they are only a few) that I felt were missed.

Still think it was fairly biased but maybe I was just blinded.

PARlance

Norfolk Enchants_ wrote: »

Dr_Colossus there is system in place for dealling with team events, essentially every notable score that is not covered by the Golfnet must be reported to your home club, notable is described as been placed i.e. 1st, 2nd, 3rd etc. and any singles scores that beats SSS, e.g. society scores.
It's up to the individual to report these scores, so it relies on the honesty and the intregrity of the individual, I'm not sure what else the GUI or Clubs can do to implement this.

I'm not sure there's any obligation to inform you club of a team event?

Re the society angle:
The GUI should communicate this more and get clubs to adopt this imo. At present, it's non existent from what I can see. I think it's the GUIs role to get the ball rolling on its adoption.

There was a poster here who was due 2 cuts afaik from 2 society events, he did the right thing and returned his cards only for the HC sec not to apply them.

Dtoffee

I did it and highlighted my objection to habitual winners who manage their handicap over the season. I believe if you have a dozen or so prize winning cards returned, you should not be able to finish the season on the same or higher handicap than you started. Players ramping up 0.1s to maintain their comfort zone of a handicap need to be addressed .... they are not bandits or cheats, they are just taking advantage of a flawed system. The clubs cut them and the point ones go flying in from opens everywhere.

As I understand it, the maximum two shots back in a year rule only applies to your handicap going from say 12 to 14, you can return 50 point ones as long as you balance them by wins thus maintaining your handicap.

PARlance

Dtoffee wrote: »

As I understand it, the maximum two shots back in a year rule only applies to your handicap going from say 12 to 14, you can return 50 point ones as long as you balance them by wins thus maintaining your handicap.

It's 2 shots above your lowest point in any one year.

So if you start at 12, win captains day and are cut to 11. The highest you can go to is 13.

mafc

PARlance wrote: »

It's 2 shots above your lowest point in any one year.

So if you start at 12, win captains day and are cut to 11. The highest you can go to is 13.

Correct

onlyfinewine

PARlance wrote: »

It's 2 shots above your lowest point in any one year.

So if you start at 12, win captains day and are cut to 11. The highest you can go to is 13.

However if you start at 12 you can go to 14, then win the Captain's prize get cut to 12 and go back again to 14 during the year etc, (repeat cycle as desired multiply by number of years and there you are).

gerrymadden1

I'm afraid you are very much out of touch. Have a look at the results for 2013 & 2014.

Russman

onlyfinewine wrote: »

However if you start at 12 you can go to 14, then win the Captain's prize get cut to 12 and go back again to 14 during the year etc, (repeat cycle as desired multiply by number of years and there you are).

True. But that's an awful lot of singles comps in a season.
what's the alternative ? As is regularly pointed out by someone (can't remember who), golfers are inconsistent. Lots of bad rounds with the odd good one is relatively "normal". If player A didn't win the captains, player B or C would, and it's equally likely he's just as inconsistent. How do you differentiate a normal range of scores (ie bad, bad, bad, bad, good, bad, good, bad, bad etc) from someone allegedly building a handicap ? It's impossible.

No matter what system we use, some people will always try to take advantage.

Boskowski

As far as I'm concerned the difference between outright cheating and massaging your handicap is marginal.
While some may argue the difference is big as in one is illegal the other is not neither practice is in the spirit of the game and those 'bandits' know that very well.
IMO the joke is on them. They don't get the respect they so crave for as everybody knows. And the money it takes to aquire all those .1s surely makes up for the odd even big prize. While I just simply enjoy my golf trying to play as well as I can. Like I said the joke is on them really.

downthemiddle

PARlance wrote: »

I'm not sure there's any obligation to inform you club of a team event?

Re the society angle:
The GUI should communicate this more and get clubs to adopt this imo. At present, it's non existent from what I can see. I think it's the GUIs role to get the ball rolling on its adoption.

There was a poster here who was due 2 cuts afaik from 2 society events, he did the right thing and returned his cards only for the HC sec not to apply them.

Oh dear.

All team scores must be reported to your home club. Your club should have a sheet posted in a prominent position for the return of these scores. Failure to do so can lead to the suspension of handicap. If a club does not provide the facility for the reporting of these scores they are in breach of CONGU obligations.

Society scores are not qualifying scores. They , like team scores, can only be used to make a general play adjustment or considered as part of the annual review of a player's handicap.

Rikand

downthemiddle wrote: »

Society scores are not qualifying scores. They , like team scores, can only be used to make a general play adjustment or considered as part of the annual review of a player's handicap.

They should be qualifying though. Any competition where you are playing for a prize should go towards the reduction of your handicap if you were lucky enough to play well enough. That's my only gripe with the current system. leaving it up to a handicap secretary to apply the cuts whether he feels you are justified in having them or not is a little unfair, to both parties.

GreeBo

Rikand wrote: »

They should be qualifying though. Any competition where you are playing for a prize should go towards the reduction of your handicap if you were lucky enough to play well enough. That's my only gripe with the current system. leaving it up to a handicap secretary to apply the cuts whether he feels you are justified in having them or not is a little unfair, to both parties.

How do you determine who player(s) played "well enough" in a team comp though?

The last one I played in, which we won, 1 of the 4 was brutal and didnt score on a single hole, why does he get cut for that?

Any competition where you are using CSS you should get cut for.
Cutting for team events should be very, very rare as to almost be un-heard of, only to be used if someone is clearing taking the piss.

Rikand

GreeBo wrote: »

How do you determine who player(s) played "well enough" in a team comp though?

The last one I played in, which we won, 1 of the 4 was brutal and didnt score on a single hole, why does he get cut for that?

Any competition where you are using CSS you should get cut for.
Cutting for team events should be very, very rare as to almost be un-heard of, only to be used if someone is clearing taking the piss.

i have no idea what to do with Team comps. That's a real grey area as far as I'm concerned.

My personal gripe is with societies only

GreeBo

Rikand wrote: »

i have no idea what to do with Team comps. That's a real grey area as far as I'm concerned.

My personal gripe is with societies only

Team handicaps for individuals, adjusted for any wins/placing.
Managed by GUI.

Wouldnt really be much more work than what they have to do today, more work for comp committee though.