Water softeners and the new water charges

NIMAN

Anyone have a ball park figure for the amount of water these use when backwashing?

I appreciate that each model will be different, and will depend on water usage. I am getting one installed soon for a family of 5, and was listening to a debate on the Sean O'Rourke show the other morning, when I heard a guy say that washing out the limescale would use up your annual allowance:eek:

Surely that can't be true?

aah yes

NIMAN wrote: »

Anyone have a ball park figure for the amount of water these use when backwashing?

I appreciate that each model will be different, and will depend on water usage. I am getting one installed soon for a family of 5, and was listening to a debate on the Sean O'Rourke show the other morning, when I heard a guy say that washing out the limescale would use up your annual allowance:eek:

Surely that can't be true?

Not true, unless an old mini timer system washing every day.

Take an average decent specification 10x44 meter water softener on a family of four, with eco efficient water settings set to use about 100 litres every 2 weeks, 2,600 litres per year, or 2.6 m3 (cubic metres) per year at a cost of €1 or €2 per cubic metre.

Annual household water use would normally be about 90 to 100 m3 per year for a family of 4. So 2.5% water use leaves 97.5% for the rest of the household water uses. So worse case €5 a year ?


A much worse scenario of higher water use are the small mini cabinet water softeners 8x17 or 8 or 9 litre units with timer valves. These could wash every day at the worst possible scenario, and use 50 litres per wash, then using over 18 m3 wash out water per year, or up to €18 to €36 per year depending on the cost of billing, sceptic tank or not ?

A water softener would have had to be badly sized and sold or incorrectly explained to a potential customer if it were to wash every day, or the customer was going for the cheapest and smallest but paying more later in water, salt and service, and a short life of the unit, 3 to 10 years ?

NIMAN

Thanks for that reply aah yes, I got one installed based on your previous posts (thanks for all those) and am delighted with it.

Not worrying too much about how much water it uses for now, until I get metered and have to start paying for it.

aah yes

NIMAN wrote: »

Thanks for that reply aah yes, I got one installed based on your previous posts (thanks for all those) and am delighted with it.

Not worrying too much about how much water it uses for now, until I get metered and have to start paying for it.

T'is a pleasure, I hope all is well. Ye should be grand on water usage if you got the Clack model.

NIMAN

I got the Clack ok, and one of the tall resin (10x44?), and I have noticed a total lack of limescale since its install, but it does regen every Thursday night, irrespective of how much capacity is remaining.

Is this not a poor use of the system?
Could it not be set to regen when the capacity gets to a certain low level?
The way it operates now, if we were away for a week and not using any water, it would still regen.

aah yes

NIMAN wrote: »

I got the Clack ok, and one of the tall resin (10x44?), and I have noticed a total lack of limescale since its install, but it does regen every Thursday night, irrespective of how much capacity is remaining.

Is this not a poor use of the system?
Could it not be set to regen when the capacity gets to a certain low level?
The way it operates now, if we were away for a week and not using any water, it would still regen.

Hi NIMAN,

Sure, the timer back up (holiday wash) needs to be extended to maybe 21 days ideally, even 28 days max if you are a lower water user.

Press middle button NEXT and lower left button ARROW UP both together simultaneously and you will see hardness figure first (around 300 to 400 ?), then scroll through pressing NEXT button until you come to the 7 figure and change to 21 or 28 (by pressing arrow up a few times), then scroll pressing NEXT back to time and out of menu.

Cheers Aah Yes

NIMAN

So is mine currently set to 7 if its regen'ing every Thursady night?

Also, if I move this 7 figure to 21, when will it regen? Does this happen automatically when the capacity gets to a certain level?

aah yes

Ideally the meter system should be the first method of regeneration initiation, so if you beat the timer with heavy water use (currently set at 7 day gaps) it might wash at 6 days or 5 days on double the normal or treble your normal water use, and wash on say a Tuesday ?

Then if you use normal water usage after, the meter may estimate 3,000 to 4,000 litres between washes, but if your 7 day timer is set again to wash earlier, it will want to wash next Tuesday now with the 7 day gap.

So really, you want to set the time to wash at 21 days, or a smallish risk would be every 28 days.

If the meter ever seized up, it would have the timer initiation to fall back on. But it should not be the timer primarily that is initiating washes.

On 400 ppm hardness the meter would wash every 3,750 litres of water use, and for an average family of four use at 250 litres per day that would be around every 15 days. If so, 21 day holiday back up (or seized meter back up) would be a handy setting.

Water already metered is stored in the system's history both long term accumulative and over a continually running 9 week roll back for every day of use to understand your water use, and from this an idea of holiday wash timing can be calculated.

ray.g

A little off topic, plus I don't know about water softners. A few years ago was looking for a leak in a hotel. Along side the leaks we had a huge usage of water every night between 3:00am & 4:30am. On further investigation it was found to be 2 softners doing a backwash.
These were tall, about metre and a half. Advised the hotel to look into it as they were back washing over 3,000 litres.
Hotel told me that they were assured that this was normal.
In your opinion would that be normal?

aah yes

depends how many rooms the hotel ?

NIMAN

aah yes wrote: »

Ideally the meter system should be the first method of regeneration initiation, so if you beat the timer with heavy water use (currently set at 7 day gaps) it might wash at 6 days or 5 days on double the normal or treble your normal water use, and wash on say a Tuesday ?

Then if you use normal water usage after, the meter may estimate 3,000 to 4,000 litres between washes, but if your 7 day timer is set again to wash earlier, it will want to wash next Tuesday now with the 7 day gap.

So really, you want to set the time to wash at 21 days, or a smallish risk would be every 28 days.

If the meter ever seized up, it would have the timer initiation to fall back on. But it should not be the timer primarily that is initiating washes.

On 400 ppm hardness the meter would wash every 3,750 litres of water use, and for an average family of four use at 250 litres per day that would be around every 15 days. If so, 21 day holiday back up (or seized meter back up) would be a handy setting.

Water already metered is stored in the system's history both long term accumulative and over a continually running 9 week roll back for every day of use to understand your water use, and from this an idea of holiday wash timing can be calculated.

Thanks again for that, most helpful.

When the system regens on a Thurs night/Fri morning, the capacity goes back to roughly 3.4m3.

When it comes around to the next Thurs, and the display reads REGEN TODAY, my capacity left is often over 2m3. I've just checked it now (it will regen later) and its reading 1.98m3 left. If I set it to regen every 21 days, will it regen itself automatically if it needs to, and at what capacity level does it do this? 0.5m2? 1m3?

frankz

Is it ok to the join the OPs thread with a related question?

If so -
How often (average/ballpark) would a system need to regenerate in one person household ? (hard water area)

Dont know how old the system is - its a logix timed system, was set to every 3 days when I moved in and at that uses a 25kg bag of salt cubes in less than a month which seems like a lot to me. (And is probably wasting water? )

aah yes

NIMAN wrote: »

Thanks again for that, most helpful.

When the system regens on a Thurs night/Fri morning, the capacity goes back to roughly 3.4m3.

When it comes around to the next Thurs, and the display reads REGEN TODAY, my capacity left is often over 2m3. I've just checked it now (it will regen later) and its reading 1.98m3 left. If I set it to regen every 21 days, will it regen itself automatically if it needs to, and at what capacity level does it do this? 0.5m2? 1m3?

The meter will automatically allow system to wash on meter initiated regeneration if timer is set much longer beyond calculated exhausted capacity. So if you used from a starting 3.4m3 capacity and after a week it cam down to 1.98 m3 then you have used around 1.4m3 in a week and have 2m3 left which should be handy for another week and a half ish ?

So if capacity approximately allows for 2.5 weeks on your current usage, allow meter to be the first point of initiation of regeneration and set timer behind this at 3 or 4 weeks. The timer wont kick in earlier then.

Is the meter working ? Press NEXT (middle button) and wait for 0L/min to appear (flow meter). Run kitchen cold tap, come back to screen and see if 10L/min to 20L/min is flowing ? Slow tap down to 5L/min, slow tap down to 1L/min, if it responds across all flow range it is working fine.

You will now get over twice the economy of your salt and water usage.

aah yes

frankz wrote: »

Is it ok to the join the OPs thread with a related question?

If so -
How often (average/ballpark) would a system need to regenerate in one person household ? (hard water area)

Dont know how old the system is - its a logix timed system, was set to every 3 days when I moved in and at that uses a 25kg bag of salt cubes in less than a month which seems like a lot to me. (And is probably wasting water? )

Depends if Logix 740 or 760 (740 timer, 760 meter). If it is timer and you have a small mini cabinet softener knee height, then leave on 3 days for more likelihood of soft water or 7 days for economy and still a good reasonable chance of soft water all round for one person. With timer units, all round it is just guess work estimating against variable actual usage.

With a larger metered system, 4 people could get away with 4 bags of salt per year, one bag of salt per person per year, not 12 bags each !

NIMAN

Thanks again ah yes, yeah the flow was working fine. I have now fixed the timer to 15 days, so hopefully it should be nearly empty when it regens now. Or should you always set the timer longer than than the period it takes you to get the capacity to 0?

If doing this, when does it backwash? Immediately when the display gets to 0, be that during the day, or does it still wait til 2am to do it?

Also I noticed my hardness is set to 450. I guess this will use more salt, but better that than have any limescale. I got system installed in mid Nov I think and have just loaded my 7th bag of salt into it the other day, so I'm happy enough with that, although with the new settings I could have near halved that? Maybe a bag per month is excessive?

frankz

aah yes wrote: »

Depends if Logix 740 or 760 (740 timer, 760 meter). If it is timer and you have a small mini cabinet softener knee height, then leave on 3 days for more likelihood of soft water or 7 days for economy and still a good reasonable chance of soft water all round for one person. With timer units, all round it is just guess work estimating against variable actual usage.

With a larger metered system, 4 people could get away with 4 bags of salt per year, one bag of salt per person per year, not 12 bags each !

Thanks so much for that. Great to talk to someone that knows their stuff.

Ya, you got it in one its the knee high 740 timer model.

I will try push it out to the seven days. (at 3 days could it be using a lot of necessary water? (on the first water bill the usage seemed high))

Is what you are telling me that really when budget allows it needs to be replaced? :-)

It sits in a little outdoor cabinet of its own(maybe a foot and half taller and wider than the unit) - is there anything that could slot in using the same electrics and pipe joining (ie handy diy job) or am I looking at plumber and biggish job and new cabinet?

aah yes

NIMAN wrote: »

Thanks again ah yes, yeah the flow was working fine. I have now fixed the timer to 15 days, so hopefully it should be nearly empty when it regens now. Or should you always set the timer longer than than the period it takes you to get the capacity to 0?

If doing this, when does it backwash? Immediately when the display gets to 0, be that during the day, or does it still wait til 2am to do it?

Also I noticed my hardness is set to 450. I guess this will use more salt, but better that than have any limescale. I got system installed in mid Nov I think and have just loaded my 7th bag of salt into it the other day, so I'm happy enough with that, although with the new settings I could have near halved that? Maybe a bag per month is excessive?

The Clack WS1CI control that you have is truly intelligent as it takes metering diagnostics several steps further.

When the timer is set a week extra back past the 2.5 weeks estimate you have (17 days then up to 24 days), the metering will have the opportunity to work its magic.

What it will do in the following 9 weeks on a 63 day rolling metering diagnostic track record, is study daily usage and record it to compare daily values on a weekly basis over nine weeks.


So, every Monday it will look back at the previous 8 Mondays and check if current metered capacity is running low and say to itself, what was the highest water use of the previous 8 Mondays ?

Say 3 Mondays back it was 500 litres, but most Mondays over 9 weeks were 200 litres, it would average out the highest as a spike and say calculate 300 litres to be sure. So then it will look back at capacity and if it sees say 350 litres left, it will say okay I will wash tonight.


So, every Tuesday it will look back at the previous 8 Tuesdays and check if current metered capacity is running low and say to itself, what was the highest water use of the previous 8 Tuesdays ?

Say 5 Tuesdays back it was 350 litres, but most Tuesdays over 9 weeks were 250 litres, it would average out the highest as a spike and say calculate 300 litres to be sure. So then it will look back at capacity and if it sees say 200 litres left, it will say okay I will wash tonight.


So, every Wednesday it will look back at the previous 8 Wednesdays and check if current metered capacity is running low and say to itself, what was the highest water use of the previous 8 Wednesdays ?

Say 7 Wednesdays back it was 300 litres, but most Wednesdays over 9 weeks were 150 litres, it would average out the highest as a spike and say calculate 225 litres to be sure. So then it will look back at capacity and if it sees say 700 litres left, it will say okay I don't need to wash tonight, I will re-assess the situation again tomorrow night.


So it goes on.


Along with accumulative metering every day of the systems life to millions of litres that can be counted, it will count every day and every backwash and give a long term history. It will allow access to its figures for checking possible leak scenarios, plus a multitude of other opportunities to check and re-sasses water use and lower salt and water use where possible.

Interpretation of these long term figures is best conducted by a Clack factory trained expert or a leading Clack trainer, to tweak and fine tune the system to perfection long term after a period of system history building up, certainly after 9 weeks or after a year or so.


Aim for 1 bag per person per year for 4 or more people on 400ppm hardness. 2 people maybe average out to 3 bag best projection, 1 person 2 plus bags over the year.

450ppm sounds excessive, only top 1% of waters are above 400 ppm.

aah yes

frankz wrote: »

Thanks so much for that. Great to talk to someone that knows their stuff.

Ya, you got it in one its the knee high 740 timer model.

I will try push it out to the seven days. (at 3 days could it be using a lot of necessary water? (on the first water bill the usage seemed high))

Is what you are telling me that really when budget allows it needs to be replaced? :-)

It sits in a little outdoor cabinet of its own(maybe a foot and half taller and wider than the unit) - is there anything that could slot in using the same electrics and pipe joining (ie handy diy job) or am I looking at plumber and biggish job and new cabinet?

Sounds like classic "Bodge it and scarper" scenario.

As used by top "drop kick" out of the van against the wall where it lands, snatch the cheque and get outta town quick style operation.

Operating at the extreme other end of the spectrum, my heart sinks when I hear about knee height timer mini cabinets being sold and then left outside on paths without extremely well constructed protection / good looking all weather box provided.

I would stick yer 740 timer cab on done deal for a €100 and re-invest in a proper unit with savings made that will pay off the operating difference easily and give you a life time unit you won't need to change in 5 or 10 years.

NIMAN

Again ah yes, many thanks.

We are a family of 2A and 3C (all under 5), as I say I was content with a bag a month, but it looks like I was using far too much. I will perhaps set the timer higher again. Does that 21 or 28 day figure you enter have any use at all if the system regens automatically before its reached?

Also, how does the stored figure of 450ppm affect usage? I would be afraid to change it in case I start to see limescale creep back into the system. Would that be possible? If I changed it from 450 to 400, what amount of savings would this give?

Nb it's a 10x 44 I have.

aah yes

NIMAN wrote: »

Again ah yes, many thanks.

We are a family of 2A and 3C (all under 5), as I say I was content with a bag a month, but it looks like I was using far too much. I will perhaps set the timer higher again. Does that 21 or 28 day figure you enter have any use at all if the system regens automatically before its reached?

Also, how does the stored figure of 450ppm affect usage? I would be afraid to change it in case I start to see limescale creep back into the system. Would that be possible? If I changed it from 450 to 400, what amount of savings would this give?

Nb it's a 10x 44 I have.

Setting the back up timer initiated regen to 21 or 28 days, means several things ...

1) If your meter broke, and the meter was the only method of regen initiation, possibly months could pass by and no softening. With timer back up even if the meter got stuck or dirtied if put on an overly high iron well and fouled, the timer could kick in and act as a back up regen initiation.

2) If you went on holiday for a month or more, (or the system was installed in a holiday home) and the meter was the only method of regen initiation, possibly water could stagnate. With timer back up even if the meter never turned because of no occupancy or water flow or water use, the timer could kick in and act as a back up, and re-fresh the tank once a month at least.



450 to 400 would equal = 400 divided by 450 = 0.8888888, so about 11% savings.

If you went lower to 350, i.e ... 350 divided by 450 = 0.777777 so about 22% savings, but if lime crept in a little, then ease back up to 400 till happy sweet spot.

450 seems high ?


All in all, the metering should kick in before the timer.

If you had a coach load of 55 people enter your house for a week, the system would cope, probably washing every day to meet demand. Or maybe just relatives over Xmas, doubling the household water load, again the meter works its magic.

But if no water is used in the quietest times, then let the timer back up do its part.

frankz

aah yes wrote: »

Sounds like classic "Bodge it and scarper" scenario.

As used by top "drop kick" out of the van against the wall where it lands, snatch the cheque and get outta town quick style operation.

Operating at the extreme other end of the spectrum, my heart sinks when I hear about knee height timer mini cabinets being sold and then left outside on paths without extremely well constructed protection / good looking all weather box provided.

I would stick yer 740 timer cab on done deal for a €100 and re-invest in a proper unit with savings made that will pay off the operating difference easily and give you a life time unit you won't need to change in 5 or 10 years.

Thanks for that.

Would a better unit be much larger dimensions?
The current one is in its own box - but nothing spectacular!!

What would you recommend for my set up?