Outrage over losing a teacher....

TheDriver

http://www.rte.ie/news/2014/1103/656466-moyross-school-gold/

A discussion as this is something I seem to hear each year amongst parents in different schools (mostly primary) whereby the fact is that the school didn't get enough students that they projected and hence gets the number of teachers they are entitled to but always seems to be represented as a teacher has been taken away from them for no reason. If there are 32 infants in one room, then there must be less in another room.
On open nights, I laugh when schools say they have 10 kids in a class because you have to ask where is the big class.......

yosser hughes

I hope you don't teach English

TheDriver

yosser hughes wrote: »

I hope you don't teach English

you are indeed correct, I do not.

daUbiq

loosing is not the same as losing... Is loosing actually a word?

spurious

daUbiq wrote: »

loosing is not the same as losing... Is loosing actually a word?

I don't know, but 'Grammar and Spelling Nazis' are not wanted in these parts.

byhookorbycrook

32 infants is average for primary, sadly , in many places.
The issue here is that the school has DEIS status and that the PTR for those schools is supposed to be 20 per room. The two junior infant classes will now combine to make a class of 32.
John Lonegeran gave us a talk as part of our staff development. He contrasted the amount of money it would cost to make meaningful intervention at primary level per head of capita in disadvantaged areas vs the cost of keeping one prisoner in Mountjoy for a year.

If we are to "break the cycle" and follow the DEIS blueprint, we need to intervene at pre-school level, never mind primary.

RealJohn

daUbiq wrote: »

loosing is not the same as losing... Is loosing actually a word?

If you don't know whether or not 'loosing' is a word (it is), are you in a position to criticise someone else for their use of language.

There's a lot of talk about the priest who's trying to get The Church to sell gold to pay for a teacher but it's shameful really that it's come to this. The government are banging on about a neutral budget and an end to austerity but they're ignoring problems like this.

dambarude

TheDriver wrote: »

http://www.rte.ie/news/2014/1103/656466-moyross-school-gold/

A discussion as this is something I seem to hear each year amongst parents in different schools (mostly primary) whereby the fact is that the school didn't get enough students that they projected and hence gets the number of teachers they are entitled to but always seems to be represented as a teacher has been taken away from them for no reason. If there are 32 infants in one room, then there must be less in another room.
On open nights, I laugh when schools say they have 10 kids in a class because you have to ask where is the big class.......

Given the time of year the post was lost, it was most likely a developing schools post.

These are allocated on a projected enrolment, and are suppressed in the middle of a school year if the numbers aren't there on September 30th. This can make it very difficult to fix classes into acceptable sizes, as it would mean discommoding several class groups, at an unnatural time. This would be particularly stressful for JI children. The added restrictions to these developing posts (having five over the normal PTR) mean it can be very frustrating when a school does not gain them as expected, and there is very little time to react. In normal circumstances (ie. non-developing) they would have the entire year to figure out a new class arrangements.

killbillvol2

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

32 infants is average for primary, sadly , in many places.
The issue here is that the school has DEIS status and that the PTR for those schools is supposed to be 20 per room. The two junior infant classes will now combine to make a class of 32.
John Lonegeran gave us a talk as part of our staff development. He contrasted the amount of money it would cost to make meaningful intervention at primary level per head of capita in disadvantaged areas vs the cost of keeping one prisoner in Mountjoy for a year.

If we are to "break the cycle" and follow the DEIS blueprint, we need to intervene at pre-school level, never mind primary.

This is a fundamental misunderstanding of PTR. The PTR for DEIS junior schools is 20:1. This means, at its simplest level, that you divide the number of pupils by 20 and are then allocated that number of class teachers. The idea of 20 per room is nonsense as all streams won't have equal numbers. As The Driver asks, where is the big class?

The school has enough teachers to limit each class to 20 but that would involve mixing classes.

As to the particular school, the story is a cheap publicity stunt. From my reading of the story on the RTE news this evening, they claimed an extra teacher based on projected enrolments and then the DES took the teacher back when the kids didn't materialise. Now missing out by 2 or 3 kids can happen but getting your projected enrolment wrong by 12? That's half a class. I think someone tried to pull a fast one, got all antsy when the DES legitimately pulled the teacher, and is now trying to cover up with this hare-brained BS.

And I'm not unsympathetic to DEIS schools, I work in one myself. But this sort of crap gets on my nerves.

evolving_doors

killbillvol2 wrote: »

This is a fundamental misunderstanding of PTR. The PTR for DEIS junior schools is 20:1. This means, at its simplest level, that you divide the number of pupils by 20 and are then allocated that number of class teachers. The idea of 20 per room is nonsense as all streams won't have equal numbers. As The Driver asks, where is the big class?

The school has enough teachers to limit each class to 20 but that would involve mixing classes.

As to the particular school, the story is a cheap publicity stunt. From my reading of the story on the RTE news this evening, they claimed an extra teacher based on projected enrolments and then the DES took the teacher back when the kids didn't materialise. Now missing out by 2 or 3 kids can happen but getting your projected enrolment wrong by 12? That's half a class. I think someone tried to pull a fast one, got all antsy when the DES legitimately pulled the teacher, and is now trying to cover up with this hare-brained BS.

And I'm not unsympathetic to DEIS schools, I work in one myself. But this sort of crap gets on my nerves.

I dunno though the devil might be in the detail as regards the missing 12 (I couldn't play the RTE link ). If memory serves me correct isn't resource teacher allocations tied up in the PTR also... so perhaps there might have been a cut in the allocation so they'd lose a teacher that way.. also children leaving or dropping out. If I'm reading it right, it might not have necessarily been a shortfall of 12 on the incoming junior infiants, but 12 students across the board... so 1 or 2 students leaving from each class (siblings too!) might not be all that impossible. Who knows, maybe it is a cheap publicity stunt to get a dig in.

Anyhow I'd think of the greater good... at least they are paying a teacher as opposed to getting one on-the-cheap from jobbridge. The church does often come in for a bit of stick but they are putting it up to the state for a change... from what I remember from my History of Education course the State has been happy to relinquish it's duties and let others carry the can for the last 150years!

killbillvol2

Armelodie wrote: »

I dunno though the devil might be in the detail as regards the missing 12 (I couldn't play the RTE link ). If memory serves me correct isn't resource teacher allocations tied up in the PTR also... so perhaps there might have been a cut in the allocation so they'd lose a teacher that way.. also children leaving or dropping out. If I'm reading it right, it might not have necessarily been a shortfall of 12 on the incoming junior infiants, but 12 students across the board... so 1 or 2 students leaving from each class (siblings too!) might not be all that impossible. Who knows, maybe it is a cheap publicity stunt to get a dig in.

Anyhow I'd think of the greater good... at least they are paying a teacher as opposed to getting one on-the-cheap from jobbridge. The church does often come in for a bit of stick but they are putting it up to the state for a change... from what I remember from my History of Education course the State has been happy to relinquish it's duties and let others carry the can for the last 150years!

It's just this one priest though. When the church were asked to comment they said parishes wouldn't have trinkets lying around to be selling to pay teachers and that teacher allocation was a matter for the DES.

endakenny

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

32 infants is average for primary, sadly , in many places.
The issue here is that the school has DEIS status and that the PTR for those schools is supposed to be 20 per room. The two junior infant classes will now combine to make a class of 32.
John Lonegeran gave us a talk as part of our staff development. He contrasted the amount of money it would cost to make meaningful intervention at primary level per head of capita in disadvantaged areas vs the cost of keeping one prisoner in Mountjoy for a year.

If we are to "break the cycle" and follow the DEIS blueprint, we need to intervene at pre-school level, never mind primary.

Surely, the quality of the teacher is more important than the size of the class.

seavill

endakenny wrote: »

Surely, the quality of the teacher is more important than the size of the class.

No

endakenny

seavill wrote: »

No

Why do you believe that? What evidence is there of a link between the size of a class and a pupil's academic performance?

evolving_doors

endakenny wrote: »

Why do you believe that? What evidence is there of a link between the size of a class and a pupil's academic performance?

Probably because he's a teacher ! There must be a limit... otherwise you could have a class of infinity amt. of pupils in an infinitly large room and assume an equal outcome as a class of 10 students... at some point quality depreciates.. unlike lecturing of course (with online lectures).

Anyhow I dont think its for teachers to justify a smaller class size with research... its taken as a given.

So, back on topic..

killbillvol2

Anyway, here you go.

<Mod SNIP>

I'll leave the link as it relates to class sizes... although consider endakenny's point now off topic.

Killbillvol2 has been warned for using 'strong language'.

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