Funeral for a newly born?

WhiteWalls

I know its very morbid talk for this time of the night but I was talking to friend of mine tonight who was telling me that he has to go to a funeral tomorrow. He said his first cousin gave birth to a baby but after complications it sadly died after two days.

He said its going to be like a normal funeral with a removal, mass and burial. I am not trying to offend anybody but I was just surprised that I never heard of this happening before? I thought it was just a small ceremony among the family.

I hope I don't offend anybody from what I said.

Burkie94

Think it just depends on the wishes of the parents/family. In any similar case I've heard of it has just been a small ceremony for the parents and their immediate family, but I suppose if a bigger funeral is what the family wants there's no reason not to?

BlaasForRafa

Until the last decade or so the churches attitude towards stillborns and babies that died very young was pretty callous. Because they weren't baptised they were considered not to have the grace of god and parent's were basically made to feel ashamed. If we're going back a few decades then stillborns were considered to have gone to limbo rather than heaven and were buried in unconsecrated ground, it was like doubly punishing the parent's who had just gone through a tragedy.

I didn't find your post offensive, seems like a fair question to me. To summarize I think church and societal attitudes have changed relatively recently and more people understand that it isn't the family's "fault" that something awful has happened.

DEFTLEFTHAND

Good post from Blaas, the CC had a warped view of our faith at one point, where they wouldn't allow the unbaptised to be buried in their graveyards on concentrated ground. Ridiculous behavior, also took the same stance on suicides for many years.

Church breaking their own laws, God Almighty judges not man.

WhiteWalls

so every parish would have unconsecrated grounds?

DEFTLEFTHAND

WhiteWalls wrote: »

so every parish would have unconsecrated grounds?

Yes they're would be land outside of consecrated grounds for these burials, I know in my own area the Church also owned this land, the original cemetery was walled and separate.

The wall on their side is gone now and all the ground is 'consecrated' with plots filling up and getting nearer to those graves.

Many of these uncon graves are in a decrepit unkempt state, decades old by now, always makes feel sad.

Galwayguy35

There is a "childrens graveyard" near where I live, I think it was for unbaptised babies and it dated back to the time of the famine.

Very sad what the parents had to go through, not beng allowed to give their baby a proper burial.

Hermy

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

...the CC had a warped view...

Had???

kneemos

Hermy wrote: »

Had???

That's what I got from it.

Tasden

Part of it is due to the history in the church I would say. But from experience if the death occurred pretty soon after the birth then the parents sometimes prefer to keep it for immediate family as they never actually got a chance to introduce baby to family and friends and so inviting them to the funeral of a baby they never even saw and in some cases hadn't even heard the news of the birth can just seem a bit unusual for want of a better word. Then there's the hassle and stress of funeral arrangements etc if going for the traditional kind. And of course the having to deal with more people.

seamus

Yeah, as others have said, even up till relatively recently (probably late 80s/early 90s), still births were just a thing that happened, and the societal attitude was that people should just move on, it's done, it's a baby that was never meant to be.
Miscarriages, even worse; if someone got upset about a miscarriage they'd be told to cop onto themselves.

As ultrasounds and regular scans became the norm in antenatal medicine, societal attitudes have shifted so that the baby is more "real" earlier on in the pregnancy, and in effect the child is a child even during the pregnancy. Especially with the improvements in medicine making late-term miscarriage and stillbirth far less likely, it's seen as normal and appropriate to mourn these losses, because they were/are children to the parents and family who've spent the last number of months excitedly preparing.

There are still some older people out there with the older attitudes, but that is fading.

What I find bizarre is that the institutions who have traditionally opposed abortion (e.g. the RCC) are the same ones who have traditionally refused to treat the unborn and their families with any kind of humanity. As the acceptance of abortion in society grows, the sanctity of life in the womb has become more cherished, not less.

I remember some neighbours having a similar mass/funeral when I was a kid

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

We had a "normal" mass and funeral for two of my grandchildren. It is now very accepted. The loss is the same whether the child died at 35 weeks gestation or lived a full life. They were brother and sister and the world is a sadder place for our never having got to know them.

Buona Fortuna

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

Yes they're would be land outside of consecrated grounds for these burials, I know in my own area the Church also owned this land, the original cemetery was walled and separate.

The wall on their side is gone now and all the ground is 'consecrated' with plots filling up and getting nearer to those graves.

Many of these uncon graves are in a decrepit unkempt state, decades old by now, always makes feel sad.

Around here there are two children's graveyards - they're both half way up a feckin mountain and decrepit and unkempt as you say.

I'm not religious but it really breaks your heart, to go up there and imagine for a minute or two what people had to go through.

It's not something I would think I would tend towards if I were in the situation but thankfully I've not been in the situation and hopefully never will be. Let people grieve how they like would be my thoughts on it, there's not much that hits me in the gut like seeing a small coffin and if someone gets through it then whatever they did while grieving was "correct".

Perhaps it's not something that was the "done thing" in previous times, but I'm not entirely sure why it would seem odd to have a funeral for a baby more than it would for an adult?

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

Perhaps it's not something that was the "done thing" in previous times, but I'm not entirely sure why it would seem odd to have a funeral for a baby more than it would for an adult?

Well some elements kinda won't apply. Can't play their favorite song/hymn, talk about what they liked, have an "offering" for them, stuff like that.

lazygal

With the death of a child you're mourning what might have been as much as a short life. I'm not religious but I couldn't not mark the death of one of my children. People grieve in all sorts of ways. Some people find it very hard that the State doesn't recognize a miscarriage before 24 weeks the same as one after 24 weeks and mourn a very early miscarriage in the same way as others mourn the death of a child. There's not one 'right' way to do things.

lazygal

Deleted User wrote: »

Well some elements kinda won't apply. Can't play their favorite song/hymn, talk about what they liked, have an "offering" for them, stuff like that.

Not every funeral has those things. I was at a humanist funeral where the focus was on the people left behind and their reaction to the death, rather than playing a song the person liked or having a coffin with a football on it. Of course you'll have memories, even of a stillborn child, like the first time you had a scan, first time they kicked you, first time to see them after the birth.

Sauve

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Well some elements kinda won't apply. Can't play their favorite song/hymn, talk about what they liked, have an "offering" for them, stuff like that.

Ah no, but it can be adjusted to suit the individual situation I'm sure.

lazygal

lazygal wrote: »

Not every funeral has those things. I was at a humanist funeral where the focus was on the people left behind and their reaction to the death, rather than playing a song the person liked or having a coffin with a football on it. Of course you'll have memories, even of a stillborn child, like the first time you had a scan, first time they kicked you, first time to see them after the birth.

Sauve wrote: »

Ah no, but it can be adjusted to suit the individual situation I'm sure.

I know all that that, I'm just spitballing as to why people might think it odd or that things don't fit the "usual" idea of a funeral.

lazygal

Deleted User wrote: »

I know all that that, I'm just spitballing as to why people might think it odd or that things don't fit the "usual" idea of a funeral.

Most funerals in Ireland are a catholic mass with a funeral shoved in the middle of it, so anything outside of that is seen as odd. Like the humanist funeral I mentioned, some of those who came didn't bother wearing a suit but would have worn one to a 'normal' funeral. That doesn't make that way of grieving any less valid that the mass+funeral format.

lazygal

lazygal wrote: »

Most funerals in Ireland are a catholic mass with a funeral shoved in the middle of it, so anything outside of that is seen as odd. Like the humanist funeral I mentioned, some of those who came didn't bother wearing a suit but would have worn one to a 'normal' funeral. That doesn't make that way of grieving any less valid that the mass+funeral format.

I'm not questioning the validity ffs.

Tokyo

Buona Fortuna wrote: »

Around here there are two children's graveyards - they're both half way up a feckin mountain and decrepit and unkempt as you say.

I'm not religious but it really breaks your heart, to go up there and imagine for a minute or two what people had to go through.

The back of my house is formerly consecrated ground, (old iron age ringfort, later a monastery), and for that reason was used as a graveyard for unbaptised children up until relatively recently. I have a sibling myself there who died in birth, buried about 20 feet from where I'm sitting right now. So yes, it's sad, and a very callous attitude by the church at the time, and thankfully that's changed.

Though if I'm to be honest, I can also see the other side of this too, in that I can't see the need for a removal, mass, and burial afterwards. The idea of much of the ceremony is for people who have shared their lives with the deceased to get a chance to pay final respects, and to celebrate the life of the person, and much of that is non existent with a newborn. And purely from a financial point of view, it's ridiculously expensive on young parents, and I worry that it will go down the road of communions, with an expectation of on-upmanship and people forking out what they can't necessarily afford.

As far as I'm aware, through the few friends I have who lost children in childbirth, the way it was done here was that they got to spend a few hours with their child in the hospital, the parish chaplain or parish priest from home would come in and give a blessing, and the child was buried in the family burial plot with immediate family present. Which seems like a balanced approach to me.

Reoil

Deleted User wrote: »

Perhaps it's not something that was the "done thing" in previous times, but I'm not entirely sure why it would seem odd to have a funeral for a baby more than it would for an adult?

Because it hadn't been baptised into the church.

beauf

WhiteWalls wrote: »

I know its very morbid talk for this time of the night but I was talking to friend of mine tonight who was telling me that he has to go to a funeral tomorrow. He said his first cousin gave birth to a baby but after complications it sadly died after two days.

He said its going to be like a normal funeral with a removal, mass and burial. I am not trying to offend anybody but I was just surprised that I never heard of this happening before? I thought it was just a small ceremony among the family.

I hope I don't offend anybody from what I said.

Its good that you raised it.

Having some sort of funeral is a good way of normalising what can be a very traumatic time for the parents, also for friends and family.

Galwayguy35

seamus wrote: »

Yeah, as others have said, even up till relatively recently (probably late 80s/early 90s), still births were just a thing that happened, and the societal attitude was that people should just move on, it's done, it's a baby that was never meant to be.
Miscarriages, even worse; if someone got upset about a miscarriage they'd be told to cop onto themselves.

As ultrasounds and regular scans became the norm in antenatal medicine, societal attitudes have shifted so that the baby is more "real" earlier on in the pregnancy, and in effect the child is a child even during the pregnancy. Especially with the improvements in medicine making late-term miscarriage and stillbirth far less likely, it's seen as normal and appropriate to mourn these losses, because they were/are children to the parents and family who've spent the last number of months excitedly preparing.

There are still some older people out there with the older attitudes, but that is fading.

What I find bizarre is that the institutions who have traditionally opposed abortion (e.g. the RCC) are the same ones who have traditionally refused to treat the unborn and their families with any kind of humanity. As the acceptance of abortion in society grows, the sanctity of life in the womb has become more cherished, not less.

Where did you grow up, North Korea?

Whatever about the Churches attitude, (which was shameful) I remember neighbours had miscarriages when I was a kid and this is over 30 years ago and they were treated with sympathy, not told to cop on and get on with it.

I don't believe the attitude you describe was widespread.

kenmccarthy

Very interesting topic!!I guess it's all a case of "to each his own"?? Maybe that attitude wasn't widespread but when I was a boy in the early 70's there certainly wasn't a big to-do surrounding the passing of a very young baby, and none whatsoever for a stillbirth-the whole sorry buisness just was'nt mentioned or discussed-like it was a taboo subject.in the 90's a work colleagues in NY lost a Daughter hours after birth and I attended what was a full mass & funeral /with headstone. To be honest I thought the funeral was apt and very fitting...a life that was never lived was mourned- guess it's all down to the parents?

Berserker

mike_ie wrote: »

it's ridiculously expensive on young parents, and I worry that it will go down the road of communions, with an expectation of on-upmanship and people forking out what they can't necessarily afford.

Does this happen at funerals? I have seen absurd levels of one-upmanship at weddings in general and RCC communions & confirmations but never at a funeral. They are all pretty standard across the board. Church service and some food and drinks after. As for the OT, I would leave it to the parents. Whatever they want is ok with me.

beauf

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

Where did you grow up, North Korea?

Whatever about the Churches attitude, (which was shameful) I remember neighbours had miscarriages when I was a kid and this is over 30 years ago and they were treated with sympathy, not told to cop on and get on with it.

I don't believe the attitude you describe was widespread.

Considering how common it is. People don't talk much about it, or know much about it.

This is a good website http://www.isands.ie/

Attitudes are changing, as it gets more attention these days. People are more aware of the impact it has.

lazygal

Berserker wrote: »

Does this happen at funerals? I have seen absurd levels of one-upmanship at weddings in general and RCC communions & confirmations but never at a funeral. They are all pretty standard across the board. Church service and some food and drinks after. As for the OT, I would leave it to the parents. Whatever they want is ok with me.

I don't think its necessarily one upmanship but some people spend a large amount on coffins and headstones which they usually can't afford and may have to borrow for. There's also the expectation that you give someone 'a good send off'. I remember when my granny died my grandfather, who would generally be a very sensible man when it came to money, picked out a very extravagant coffin because he didn't want the casket to look cheap. I know my parents, who are completely a la carte catholics, would expect a church funeral, with a coffin, headstone, flowers and some sort of reception afterwards, and I don't think they're uncommon in Ireland in thinking that's just how funerals are.

The One Doctor

WhiteWalls wrote: »

I know its very morbid talk for this time of the night but I was talking to friend of mine tonight who was telling me that he has to go to a funeral tomorrow. He said his first cousin gave birth to a baby but after complications it sadly died after two days.

He said its going to be like a normal funeral with a removal, mass and burial. I am not trying to offend anybody but I was just surprised that I never heard of this happening before? I thought it was just a small ceremony among the family.

I hope I don't offend anybody from what I said.

First thing is not to use the word 'it' when talking to the parents. The baby was male or female.

Son Of A Vidic

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Until the last decade or so the churches attitude towards stillborns and babies that died very young was pretty callous

Tell me about it. My parents (RIP) buried several babies before I came along . Thankfully my Dad had the presence of mind to erect his own white cross for his kids. And years later we could find the spot. But it's quite sad to see it, it's a part of the cemetery were little babies were just anonymously put in the ground.

sheesh

just for the record my mothers first baby 50 years ago died soon after birth, he was buried in the family plot. I suppose he was baptised as soon as they found out he would not survive. in emergencies anybody and any water will do is what we were told in religion class.

17larsson

Fair play to God for changing his mind on allowing un-baptised babies up to heaven. The church had/has so many stupid ideas

Ghekko

Our firstborn died 15 years ago. We had his funeral organised before he was born. Heart wrenching stuff. Mother would ring and ask if yet another person could come. The day we left the hospital, coffin in dh's hands, we got to my parents house, laid the coffin on the kitchen table and the local Monsignor arrived - organised by family. He was very emotional as were all the 30 or so people that turned up at the house. We didn't go to the church. I think it was a case of our baby had no sin so didn't necessarily need a mass, but it was lovely to have a few prayers round the kitchen table all the same! When I think back to that day, I was in the bathroom and my aunt was at the bottom of the stairs calling me cos everyone was there. Dh was outside the bathroom door fit to be tied and telling her I would be a few minutes. The graveyard attracted even more people, despite the cold weather. Then back to the house again for food. Surreal now. I can almost laugh about it all. I don't really think Dh and I had any part in it if memory serves me correctly. I was too busy grieving my son to care what went on around me. I do know others who had the church mass. I really don't think I would have been physically able for it, let alone emotionally. Anyway, that's my tuppence worth.

Hermy

Ghekko wrote: »

...The day we left the hospital, coffin in dh's hands, we got to my parents house, laid the coffin on the kitchen table...

I'm really struck by this line.
What a thing to have to do.
Life can be so terribly, terribly cruel.:(

looksee

We lost a baby at 14 months - we knew it was inevitable from him being just a few weeks old - but I absolutely cannot remember anything about the funeral, I am pretty sure there was not a Mass, but I do know that I didn't want a hearse. The funeral directors brought a red station-wagon type car came (this was 35 years ago) and I was content with that. I remember us being in the graveyard for the burial with two neighbours, the older children 6 and 5 were at school.

You absolutely cannot criticise or question parents' decisions at a time like this, they are on auto-pilot and decisions are made with a very superficial part of consciousness.

Steven81

Too many painful memories reading this thread, remember waking up so many nights with the wife crying or being downstairs looking at scan pictures.

mrsbyrne

Undertakere where I live don't charge for the funerals of small babies. I wish peace and comfort and love to any parents on this thread who have suffered losing a child.

minibear

Our first baby died during labour (full term) four years ago. We had known he probably wouldn't survive for long after the birth, but as it happened we never got to see him open his eyes. After I got home from the hospital it started to snow, and by the time we were to collect him from the hospital the following week (after post mortem) we couldn't get there because the roads were too bad. A week after I left the hospital we got him home. The priest had been booked to say some prayers at the graveside and they had to dig the snow away to make a pathway to the grave. The only people we asked to attend were both our sets of parents.The graveyard is right beside our house and we formed a sad little procession in the snow, with my husband carrying our son's coffin. A neighbour was walking by and I will never forget her face when she realised what she was looking at.

Some couples have a full mass, some just themselves, it really is such a personal thing. I was glad of the snow in the end, it was surreal, this beautiful brightness and there was no traffic, no one to see our suffering. As another poster said, you can't play the person's favourite song, or bring their running shoes to the altar. you're grieving for every little thing that person will never get the chance to do.

Back in April I was listening to Sunday Miscellany and heard this poem by Peter Fallon. I couldn't find it anywhere online so I transcribed it from the podcast.

The Man Who Never Was
by Peter Fallon

You are taken aback

Caught off guard

by that near quotidien attack

and he's here again with you

The one who never was a man

Still a brother

Still a son



Is he his elder sibling's unspoken grief?

You stop to wonder

Unmeasured loss who might have been the journeys taken

Oh would that it had been

That he could reach up a hand

As that same brother did

and sister would without a glance

And know that mine was there to take it

So that she might not be so exposed,

His mother, in face of warning

Worn out already

her cross too much to bear.



No need defer with her

I'll hold you in the morning.

Now I rolled out a dream of him

His quirks and qualities

A gift for this or that

Success on this team or that

Or none. As I sit and wait

As if, for something to happen.

But what that is, is fate

And has already come to pass completely

And made the man who never was

No, was a boy, was but a fleeting baby

who'd be a man, who's twenty three.

mrsbyrne

That's s beautiful poem. Time goess by so quickly after our loved ones die but yhe pain can be as sudden and sharp years and years later.

jimgoose

“Lo, there do I see my father.
Lo, there do I see my mother,
and my sisters, and my brothers.
Lo, there do I see the line of my people,
Back to the beginning!

Lo, they do call to me.
They bid me take my place among them,
In the halls of Valhalla!
Where the brave may live forever!”

― The Viking Prayer.

Hermy

mrsbyrne wrote: »

Undertakere where I live don't charge for the funerals of small babies.

That's a nice thing to do.

ProudDUB

My older brother died when he was just 3 days old. He was buried in an unmarked grave in the Angels Plot up in Glasnevin. My dad would have liked a proper funeral. My mother just went along with what the chaplain in the hospital said would be done. That's what happened back then, in the 1960's. People just did what they were told. It's different now, thankfully.

I think that if you find yourself in a situation where you are around people who are mourning the death of a little one, it is important to just respect the parents wishes, at all times. Every set of parents will be different. Some will want a big "proper" funeral. Some will want something smaller. Some will be so consumed by grief & shock, that they don't know what the eff they want, so they'll go along with what others suggest.

So just respect what ever they do. If it strikes you as odd or weird or over the top or whatever, just let it go and keep your mouth shut and your heart open. The parents and the extended family will be going thru a godawful time. The last thing they need at such a difficult time, is people passing remarks and being judgmental behind their backs.

Very sorry to hear about the stories here. My own mother had a miscarriage after her 3rd child before I was born (early to mid 80's) but she doesn't speak a word of it. I was born in 1989 and was the 4th and am the youngest child.

I don't know how my parents approached the situation back then and I don't know what to say to anyone here but my heart goes out to ye.

namelessone

I had aittle baby who dies shlrtly after birth. when born they knew he wouldnt survive so the lriest was called in straight away by the midwife to baptise him and I not even there coz I had a section! this was only 12 years ago... goes to show the Catholic church is still pretty strong in the hospitals
anyway we had him laid out in a private room in the hospital for 2days..I had the keys to the rrom so I could bring in anyone I wanted to see him. then we had mass the third day in the hospital church and onto the cemetery. people did just turn up to it.. like any other funeral. I didnt mind.. they were all friends and family anyway. I think if things were different and I hadnt been just after a section and unable to barely walk id like to have had a proper wake and lay him out at home.