Up to 120K A4.

michael196

First thoughts, not a problem per se, for circuit race organising.
No impact realy on a distance change for the category as regards race layout and structure, manpower etc.
Eliminates minor neutralised considerations.


Second thoughts: how to distinguish an A4 from an A3 category ?. Probably work to increase the A4 from 80 towards 120 while maintaining A3 at 110 -120k.


Choice is :


Bring all race category distances closer to the median 120k or distinguish the distances by cranking on a further 20-30 on A1-A3 for 1 day races ?

Have seen in league races whereby that one additional lap blows the field away into smitherines. Perhaps the 80 to 120 will impact the a4 race by blowing away the bunch sprint.

Would be of the mindset to implement the increase in A4 distance at the first opportunity.

I wonder did CI consider higher points for maxed 120 k A4 races ( currently up to 54 k is awarded first 6? places, up to 80K is top 10 places, would 120 K be higher points for top 10 ?

bcmf

Imo bringing in a distance of 120km for A4 isn't a good idea.
Isn't A4.supposed to be an introductory to racing. For those who want to try it out and see.
I know there was a problem with field sizes so running a 120km A4 race may solve that.
Logistically running an out and back style race may work but on a circuit it could be choas with bunches of riders all over the place.
A marshalling nightmare.

Beasty

It's an option, not a requirement. The general feeling was it gave more flexibility. For example if you can add an extra lap to a race to take it up to 85km that's no longer an issue. However it's entirely up to promoters as to whether they take advantage of this change and I suspect on many circuits if you have a number of different races on at the same time the distances for the slower races may not be increased for the simple reason that increases the risk of being caught by the fastest race

detones

Having the option of 120k A4 is setting a risky precedent. Races of that lenght will surely discourage those wishing to get into racing. Despite the opinion some A4's have of tyemselves it is meant to be an entry level category.

Beasty

Don't see it as risky at all. Promoters are trying to maximise revenue and will not extend races for the sake of it. Maybe some of the flatter races could be extended a bit, which hopefully will help thin fields out before the final sprint. I certainly don't see those using hillier circuits going to 120km. I suspect we wnn't see anyone extending to the full 120km until the promters see the lie of the land in terms of interest or lack thereof where they do start increasing distances. Even then though I think it will be very much the exception rather than the rule and most promoters will stick with current formats (without the real problem we had previously identified of minimum distances as that proposal was done away with)

Michelin

Excuse my ignorance here, I have noticed recently this proposal to extend race distances in each of the categories, I have looked through a few threads including the AGM one to find out who wants it and for what reason for the increase but cant really find a one. Can someone tell me what is the reason behind the increase in race distances? Is it due to riders in those categories asking for it? I used to race a number of years ago and found anything over 80k a slog to the finish.

outfox

I haven't a clue about racing. Hoping to try it next year. But am I right in thinking that the longer distance will level the field somewhat, as the more endurance type riders will get more of a look in?

detones

Beasty wrote: »

Don't see it as risky at all. Promoters are trying to maximise revenue and will not extend races for the sake of it. Maybe some of the flatter races could be extended a bit, which hopefully will help thin fields out before the final sprint. I certainly don't see those using hillier circuits going to 120km. I suspect we wnn't see anyone extending to the full 120km until the promters see the lie of the land in terms of interest or lack thereof where they do start increasing distances. Even then though I think it will be very much the exception rather than the rule and most promoters will stick with current formats (without the real problem we had previously identified of minimum distances as that proposal was done away with)

From a revenue and promotion perspective it probably is not risky. However I feel the risk is in making an introduction category to racing more intimidating and exclusionary. What novice racer would want to do a 120k race or even a 100k race. Is the point of the A4 category to try and intise and encourage people into racing. Money making should be irrelevant.

RobFowl

Michelin wrote: »

Excuse my ignorance here, I have noticed recently this proposal to extend race distances in each of the categories, I have looked through a few threads including the AGM one to find out who wants it and for what reason for the increase but cant really find a one. Can someone tell me what is the reason behind the increase in race distances? Is it due to riders in those categories asking for it? I used to race a number of years ago and found anything over 80k a slog to the finish.

The first rule of CI AGM is........

ragazzo

bcmf wrote: »

Imo bringing in a distance of 120km for A4 isn't a good idea.
Isn't A4.supposed to be an introductory to racing. For those who want to try it out and see.
I know there was a problem with field sizes so running a 120km A4 race may solve that.
Logistically running an out and back style race may work but on a circuit it could be choas with bunches of riders all over the place.
A marshalling nightmare.

I think this is probably CI's acknowledgement of the fact that A4 is not an introduction to racing category.

There are guys who spend years in A4 because they want to earn their upgrade.
There have also been cases of experienced riders returning to the sport and being granted A4 licences.

The above examples should not be allowed to interfere with the running of a beginner category but unfortunately this has been the case from the outset.

It is probably too much hassle for the CI Board/office/commissions to set up a real and properly functioning beginners racing category and to monitor same.

CI Solution: allow the alleged beginners category of A4 race up to a maximum of 120k and let the clubs/organisers sort out any resulting problems.

Reality: everything will probably remain as is with very few events increasing A4 distances.

A4's who want longer races, experienced racers, riders returning to the sport and long term A4's should be instructed to take out A3 licences at minimum.

Bottlenecks, large fields, upgrade issues, dangerous riding..... And it starts all over again.

Beasty

If the minimum distance proposals had gone ahead I could understand some concerns. However, and I know I'm labouring the point, all this change does is provide additional flexibility, and that was all that was mentioned yesterday.

I would hazard a guess that probably no more than a handful of promoters take advantage of that flexibilty in 2015, and I would be equally surprised if there is a single A4 race over 100km

daragh_

detones wrote: »

From a revenue and promotion perspective it probably is not risky. However I feel the risk is in making an introduction category to racing more intimidating and exclusionary. What novice racer would want to do a 120k race or even a 100k race. Is the point of the A4 category to try and intise and encourage people into racing. Money making should be irrelevant.

The key point is that it's a maximum, not a target.

There won't suddenly be a lot of 120k races. What it does is give organisers, particularly on fast, flat courses, the opportunity to add a bit more distance and hopefully narrow the field at the end, reducing the possibility of big bunch sprints and crashes.

DirkVoodoo

Jesus, this has really grown legs.

As Beasty says, it's probably not going to affect many A4 races, especially early in the season. It just gives an OPTION to run longer races should the organizer decide to do so and will most likely be beneficial on circuits where you have to run discrete lap numbers, i.e. you can't do 2.5 laps and running 2 would be too short for people to even bother turning up.

People worrying that ALL A4 races will suddenly be bumped up to 120km next season are really being paranoid.

This is good for racing because short races result in edgy bunches and mass sprints. There will be more opportunities for stronger riders to wage a war of attrition and string out weaker packs more. This should make for more tactical and exciting racing rather than rolling around in a bunch for an hour and trying to avoid a mass pile-up at the end.

JK.BMC

I wasn't at the AGM.

Seems that there is a whole lot of nothing to get worried about and people are over reacting.

This allows flexibility for race organisers/clubs in race planning. Not much more to see here I think.

The beginner race level is club racing. If there are no club races/leagues in an area, there is no reason why concerned A4s/club racers can't organise them for themselves.

MichealD

It's already touch and go having an A1/2 race, A3, A4 and ladies races on the same 25km circuit at the same time in our promotion so we certainly won't be adding another lap onto our 80km A4 road race.

Doubt you will see many races of 100km+ for A4s bar a standalone championship race or as part of a stage race.

No harm in having a higher max in my opinion though.

stecleary

Maybe im the only one that looks at it this way but A4 is not an introduction to racing its the 2nd step.

Club leagues are the first step, do well in them then try your hand at an open race.

Beasty

stecleary wrote: »

Club leagues are the first step, do well in them then try your hand at an open race.

I agree entirely, but there is an issue I raised with Cycling Leinster and they forwarded to CI

One of the problems is the numbers turning up to start their racing careers in A4 in February and March each year. Unfortunatley there are no club league options at that time of year as they can only take place Monday to Thursday and there is insufficient light for evening racing until the clocks change at the end of March. We are not even allowed to run club league races at Corkagh Park over weekends

I therefore proposed that Club leagues be permitted to run races over weekends during the months of February and March to hopefully cut some of the large early season A4 fields and allow some racers to start off with club league racing rather than jumping straight into open racing. Now there would be no obligation to do club league first, and for some club league may simply not be an option, but hopefully it would help alleviate some of the early season problems typically encountered in A4 racing.

Of course this is probably more something to be addressed by the Road Commission, but that seems to be completely inactive (certainly ineffective) at present

buffalo

Beasty wrote: »

I therefore proposed that Club leagues be permitted to run races over weekends during the months of February and March

Who's going to run the club leagues and pass skills onto the newbies while the experienced guys are all off racing?

Michelin

RobFowl wrote: »

The first rule of CI AGM is........

I give up what is it?

Beasty

buffalo wrote: »

Who's going to run the club leagues and pass skills onto the newbies while the experienced guys are all off racing?

There's no way I'll be racing A4 again....

(and equally no way I'll be opting to upgrade!).

All I'm suggesting is allowing some flexibility to run club league races over the weekend during those 2 months. I'm not expecting clubs to be putting on races every week but it seems to me to be the perfect opportunity to allow newbies to dip their toes in the water. I also know quite a number at my club that only have club competition or IVCA licences and never do open racing but support the club league week in week out during the summer months. Indeed IVCA racing does not start until the last weekend in March and some of those guys may jump at the opportunity of a bit more racing preparation. If we did it I would be initially suggesting within the club to run maybe a couple of races, one in each month, and take it from there.

The Crunch

Beasty wrote: »

There's no way I'll be racing A4 again....

(and equally no way I'll be opting to upgrade!).

All I'm suggesting is allowing some flexibility to run club league races over the weekend during those 2 months. I'm not expecting clubs to be putting on races every week but it seems to me to be the perfect opportunity to allow newbies to dip their toes in the water. I also know quite a number at my club that only have club competition or IVCA licences and never do open racing but support the club league week in week out during the summer months. Indeed IVCA racing does not start until the last weekend in March and some of those guys may jump at the opportunity of a bit more racing preparation. If we did it I would be initially suggesting within the club to run maybe a couple of races, one in each month, and take it from there.

How about banning open racing until mid March and allowing club racing on weekends from February until the start of the Open season?

Beasty

The Crunch wrote: »

How about banning open racing until mid March and allowing club racing on weekends from February until the start of the Open season?

One of the surprising things to me is just how many turn up to open races in February and those first few weeks do seem popular with promoters. I guess one of the things my suggestion was trying to do was spread the load a little by giving another option. I certainly wasn't of the mind to exclude open racing altogether for a few weeks, just maybe cut down the fields particularly in the lower cats.

RobFowl

Beasty wrote: »

One of the surprising things to me is just how many turn up to open races in February and those first few weeks do seem popular with promoters. I guess one of the things my suggestion was trying to do was spread the load a little by giving another option. I certainly wasn't of the mind to exclude open racing altogether for a few weeks, just maybe cut down the fields particularly in the lower cats.

It's really confusing, legions of racers and races in Feb/Mar and near none in the sun in July/Aug.....
Not sure what or even if there is a solution...

harringtonp

The Crunch wrote: »

How about banning open racing until mid March and allowing club racing on weekends from February until the start of the Open season?

Would second that, would take away the "what do I wear" thing to some extent and for those in outlying regions who try and go by a maximum drive rule of 90 mins (each way) you get away from a glut of early season races followed by nothing.

GMCI

RobFowl wrote: »

It's really confusing, legions of racers and races in Feb/Mar and near none in the sun in July/Aug.....
Not sure what or even if there is a solution...

Nature of the A4 is consistent with racing members age profiles, ie family men.
Not being a family man myself I can only assume that family men get more latitude to race at weekends when the weather is bad early in the year as there is less requirement for family duties compared to the summer time when the kids are off mid week and parents need more help at the weekends for entertainment purposes :-) therefore racing gets hit on the head at this time of the year.

The same argument is made for A1s disappearing after the ras with nothing happening in the summer. Reality is the age profile of an A1 rider is also quite consistent with family men with the same reasons for disappearing as above

Inquitus

Aye and people go on holidays in July and August.

Borderfox

Not entirely on the point but when I was racing as a C category there was no limit on distance and I can remember a lot of race organisers not bothering to hold a separate c category race but putting us in with the b racers.

In a similar vein will the A4 race be stuck in with the A3 race to save on organising?

Only a thought �� CI only ever looked after itself in those days and probably the same now

smurphy29

The Crunch wrote: »

How about banning open racing until mid March and allowing club racing on weekends from February until the start of the Open season?

Ban open races until mid-march? So that would-be A4s can cut their teeth in a club race that may or may not (by which I mean won't) happen? This is the tail wagging the dog. There's more than just A4 races going on; indeed, A4 races are just a by-product of the main event which is the A1/2 race which happens on the day. The early season races are very important for these riders, many of whom are looking to build form for the Ras; the idea that this should be on pause for soon-to-be-A4s is crazy.

ROK ON

The Crunch wrote: »

How about banning open racing until mid March and allowing club racing on weekends from February until the start of the Open season?

Or how about CI actually doing something to promote the sport at the newbie end, such as putting on a series of training races/reliability trials for newbies - to be held anytime from Oct thru March. Some people because of location are members of very small clubs - a club league is not always feasible (however most counties have some sort of open club league).

It strikes me that the women's commission does a good job in helping female riders to begin racing and build up the skills and confidence necessary.
Maybe CI should be doing something similar across gender and age for newbies.

Harrybelafonte

Borderfox wrote: »

Not entirely on the point but when I was racing as a C category there was no limit on distance and I can remember a lot of race organisers not bothering to hold a separate c category race but putting us in with the b racers.

In a similar vein will the A4 race be stuck in with the A3 race to save on organising?

Only a thought �� CI only ever looked after itself in those days and probably the same now

The numbers in each bunch are swollen enough as it is, throwing a load of A4 in with A3s will only bring chaos.

ROK ON wrote: »

Or how about CI actually doing something to promote the sport at the newbie end, such as putting on a series of training races/reliability trials for newbies - to be held anytime from Oct thru March. Some people because of location are members of very small clubs - a club league is not always feasible (however most counties have some sort of open club league).

It strikes me that the women's commission does a good job in helping female riders to begin racing and build up the skills and confidence necessary.
Maybe CI should be doing something similar across gender and age for newbies.

CI should just do something similar in each province. Mixing genders won't work as I guarantee it'll put less confident members off. Especially considering how needlessly bullish male riders tend to be.

Peterx

RobFowl wrote: »

It's really confusing, legions of racers and races in Feb/Mar and near none in the sun in July/Aug.....
Not sure what or even if there is a solution...

The current one day licence restrictions play their part. Some would love to dip into the occasional race in the heat and haze of July/Aug but are unwilling to shell out €155 for that privilege.

harringtonp

Would be nearly better if it was reversed so that you can get a one day from say May onwards

RobFowl

harringtonp wrote: »

Would be nearly better if it was reversed so that you can get a one day from say May onwards

One day licences used to be available year round (still are for cyclocross IIRC) but promoters and commissaires in particular found this troublesome.It was debated at the AGM either last year or the year before and limited to the start of the season.

Peterx

RobFowl wrote: »

One day licences used to be available year round (still are for cyclocross IIRC) but promoters and commissaires in particular found this troublesome.It was debated at the AGM either last year or the year before and limited to the start of the season.

Available for CX and MTB for sure. The full logic of debating this issue at AGM level is in itself debatable as by their very nature one day licence holders do not have a voice at AGM level.

It is a regressive and counter productive move. In my opinion of course. And also quite off topic for this thread so sorry about that..

michael196

Beasty wrote: »

If the minimum distance proposals had gone ahead I could understand some concerns. However, and I know I'm labouring the point, all this change does is provide additional flexibility, and that was all that was mentioned yesterday.

I would hazard a guess that probably no more than a handful of promoters take advantage of that flexibilty in 2015, and I would be equally surprised if there is a single A4 race over 100km

that's the thing, beasty, how does the organiser know what the A4 riders want ? Financial gambling on numbers is risky.

I think, if a club has the luxury of online registration, it might be an idea to ask riders what distance they want .