The term doctor (Dr.)

byrneg28

I was recently in hospital and the doctor who signed me off for work wrote Dr.'Joe Bloggs' (withold their identity for privacy) the doctor was clearly in their mid-20s and was either a trainee or student doctor.

Can you use the term Dr. if you don't have a PhD ? Should it not be Mr./Ms./Mrs./?

I learned this in a lecture in college before and I can't remember the ins and outs and the doctor terminology etc.

L1011

A medical degree entitles you to use the term Doctor, I believe its classified as being a "courtesy title" but in practice that doesn't change anything.

Albertofrog

Mid 20s - was probably an intern or SHO.
Surgeons are Mr/Mrs/Miss - after passing their part 2 fellowship.
So yes Dr Bloggs was a qualified doctor - just a junior one.

echo beach

Doctor isn't a protected title and anybody can style themselves 'Dr' if they so wish, and if they think it will impress.
A medical doctor should put their Irish Medical Council (IMC) number after their name on prescriptions or certs so that their qualification can be verified. The number tells you the person is a doctor, not the title they use. Some doctors (especially surgeons) use the tile Mr and some are happy with their first name.

byrneg28

Cheers for the reply guys,

I emailed my lecturer and he relayed this

'Strictly speaking the term doctor comes from the latin meaning to teach and as such has for centuries used to designate academics who hold a doctoral degree such as a PhD and who teach.

I presume originally medical physicians who also taught in universities were able to use the term doctor on that basis however from my limited research on this unless a physician has actually obtained an additional qualification at doctoral level the normal medical qualifications never refer to the term doctor - so it is used by custom and has not standing outside of that.

In several European languages the terms used for a Doctor with a PhD and a Doctor who is a Physician are different but we only have one word in English for both.

Surgeons were originally barbers and as such have never been called Dr. but instead Mr. Ironically they are now often perceived to have a higher status among the medical professions. Good paper at http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC557881/'

his_dudeness

Many countries, but not Ireland or the UK, confer an M.D. on to their graduating medical students, which is a "doctor of medicine" degree.

While it's the basic medical qualification in most countries, it's actually a higher medical degree here, usually awarded in respect to a body of research work, where it would fall in behind a PhD in terms of significance

(Medical graduates here are awarded an MB (bachelor of medicine) and and BS/B.Ch (Bachelor of Surgery) and in some of the medical schools a B.A.O. (loosely translated as Bachelor in the art of obstetrics))

locum-motion

Nobody - whether they're a medical doctor, MD, dentist, PhD or whatever - should ever sign their name "Dr. ... ...".

"Dr." is not part of the doctor's name, it is a form of address. One should address him as "Dr. ...", but he should not call himself "Dr. ..."

Vorsprung

byrneg28 wrote: »

Surgeons were originally barbers and as such have never been called Dr. but instead Mr. Ironically they are now often perceived to have a higher status among the medical professions.

As determined by a survey of 100 surgeons!

Don't mind the title but wouldn't introduce myself as Dr Vorsprung. Interesting originss all the same, think this question came up a few years ago.

Icemancometh

Vorsprung wrote: »

As determined by a survey of 100 surgeons!

Don't mind the title but wouldn't introduce myself as Dr Vorsprung. Interesting originss all the same, think this question came up a few years ago.

Personally I always say "Hi my name is X," but some patients prefer to call me Dr Y.

MrCreosote

byrneg28 wrote: »

Surgeons were originally barbers and as such have never been called Dr. but instead Mr. Ironically they are now often perceived to have a higher status among the medical professions.

Not only that, but they're better looking as well...

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1761168/

take everything

As an SHO i worked with years ago maintained, if you want to get someone to listen and do something for you over the phone its handy to stress the Doctor bit when introducing yourself.
The way things have changed, it'd probably work the other way now.

Never use it as a title myself.
Medicine does not define me

Gael23

I was with a consulatant just yesterday and he signed my prescription as M.D.
You can't clearly read his name on it though. This prescription does have his name at the top and his title of professor.

EoghanIRL

Interesting . I'm doing bds myself not Mb and most people who finished the course use the term Dr. aswell , along with most dentists you go to nowadays . I know a lot of people don't consider dentists to be doctors and are unhappy about the use of it .
What do you guys think ?
I mean personally I think it's ok seeing as you study a lot of medicine through out your course and are able to prescribe drugs , have spent 5 years studying anatomy /pathology/ physiology , pharma etc and also in many countries an intern year is compulsary (not Ireland ) . Dental surgeons specialise more where as medicine is a very general degree at mb level anyway .
Then some dentists go on to become maxillofacial surgeons and oral surgeons yet they seem to keep the title of Dr. instead of Mr./Mrs.

locum-motion

EoghanIRL wrote: »

Interesting . I'm doing bds myself not Mb and most people who finished the course use the term Dr. aswell , along with most dentists you go to nowadays . I know a lot of people don't consider dentists to be doctors and are unhappy about the use of it .
What do you guys think ?
I mean personally I think it's ok seeing as you study a lot of medicine through out your course and are able to prescribe drugs , have spent 5 years studying anatomy /pathology/ physiology , pharma etc and also in many countries an intern year is compulsary (not Ireland ) . Dental surgeons specialise more where as medicine is a very general degree at mb level anyway .
Then some dentists go on to become maxillofacial surgeons and oral surgeons yet they seem to keep the title of Dr. instead of Mr./Mrs.

With dentists, the same applies; the correct form of address is "Dr. Whatever" (assuming the person doing the addressing is keeping a degree of formality), but it does not form part of the dentist's name. "Joe Whatever, BDS" (or whatever the letters are) should be the signature.

EoghanIRL

locum-motion wrote: »

With dentists, the same applies; the correct form of address is "Dr. Whatever" (assuming the person doing the addressing is keeping a degree of formality), but it does not form part of the dentist's name. "Joe Whatever, BDS" (or whatever the letters are) should be the signature.

Well that makes sense, thanks.

blindsider

byrneg28 wrote: »

Surgeons were originally barbers and as such have never been called Dr. but instead Mr. Ironically they are now often perceived to have a higher status among the medical professions. Good paper at http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC557881/'

Butchers, I thought, not barbers.

Louis Jolyon West's essay, which is appended to Patrick O'Brian's "Treason's Harbour" certainly suggests this.

It's an interesting, and brief, read, even if you have no interest in The Canon.

L1011

blindsider wrote: »

Butchers, I thought, not barbers.

Louis Jolyon West's essay, which is appended to Patrick O'Brian's "Treason's Harbour" certainly suggests this.

It's an interesting, and brief, read, even if you have no interest in The Canon.

Barbers was generally the norm; never heard of a butcher doing it and one side of my family were butchers going back as far as we can find out

Gongoozler

Dr isn't a protected title. The Medical Council would only be concerned with someone holding themselves out to be a doctor or be practising as a doctor if not registered. Call yourself doctor if ya like.

steddyeddy

It's a bone of contention amongst some scientists. We're doctors too so the term isn't an effective description rather an honorary title. Scientists generally use clinician. I use my clinicians first name usually (GP).

polydactyl

I was told as a young female intern to always introduce myself as "Polydactyl, the Dr on your team" or else in this wonderfully evolved world we live in the patient woudl assume I was the nurse.....despite being in a white coat etc and not wearing the same uniform as my colleagure standing next to me.

This was stressed to all of us females after a patient launched a legal case about not being see once by a doctor in their entire hospital stay and having been discharged by a nurse.....intern, SHO and Reg were all female and the consultant was on leave and being covered by his female colleague! They catalogued over 20 times he was seen by a doctor but all he saw were nurses out of uniform

Ironically the worst ofenders I have founda are the females my own age.