What information can be requested by garda if approched

some1gr8

HI,
just came across following information,

"A garda may approach and ask any question of a member of the public in course of detecting and preventing crime.
Except for providing a name and address no person is obliged to answer garda questions.
Beyond this there is no obligation to answer any further question posed by a garda.

The Criminal Justice (Public Order) Act 1994, section 24 entitles a garda to demand name and address where they reasonably suspect that that a person has committed an offence. A failure to comply is an arrestable offence.

The person of whom the demand is made must be informed of the reasonable suspicion and the consequence of the failure to comply. Plain language is required to be used by the garda in explaining the specific offence believed to have been committed."

My question is, Is it true
1)that u can refuse to give anything else apart from your name and adddress,

2) Gardai must inform you why he is asking you this information

coylemj

Have you had a bad experience or are you just studying how to be non co-operative and want to make sure that you're within the law?

bluestrattos

Can you reply saying your name is Bruce Wayne, and your address is "1007 Mountain Drive, Gotham"? My question is legit, since you don't have proof of ID/Address.

I find the lack of an ID Card (EU citizen card) quite disturbing (that's another discussion)

Little CuChulainn

You do not have to answer any questions. You do have to answer demands for information. There are many other sections other than the Public Order Act that give the Gardaí the power to demand information. While the Gardaí do have to tell you under what power they are demanding info, they don't have to explain their reasons.

conorh91

bluestrattos wrote: »

Can you reply saying your name is Bruce Wayne, and your address is "1007 Mountain Drive, Gotham"? My question is legit, since you don't have proof of ID/Address.

I find the lack of an ID Card (EU citizen card) quite disturbing (that's another discussion)

It's not that unusual at all.

If you stopped 10 Irish people in the street, I'd estimate that 5 of them would have no photographic ID.

I rarely take my bank or credit card on nights out, partly for loss-prevention reasons, mostly for budgetary reasons.

It would be quite normal for me, and others like me, not to have any ID at all. Photographic or otherwise.

I'm not sure why you think the OP would have an "EU citizen card", whatever that is.

OP: As Little Cuchulainn said, the Gardaí have a statutory right to demand certain information.

They also have common law powers that are central to policing, that exist in the absence of any statutory powers. Occasionally, reasonable suspicion is not required. For example, the power to stop a person does not require reasonable suspicion. It's just a 'public policy' power that is necessary in policing.

Police forces act on hunches all the time. It goes with the territory. Without hunches, they'd be totally ineffective.

billie1b

conorh91 wrote: »

I'm not sure why you think the OP would have an "EU citizen card", whatever that is.

An EU Citizens Card, aka, National Identity Card is an identification card in a few European countries, Ireland is one of the very few EU countries that you DO NOT need to carry identification with you, in most EU countries its in the law citizens over 16/18 have to have some form of photographic identification with them at all times.
You do not need to give the Gardaí any information, they can ask but you can refuse.

conorh91

billie1b wrote: »

You do not need to give the Gardaí any information, they can ask but you can refuse.

You can. But you're quite possibly committing an offence.

billie1b

conorh91 wrote: »

You can. But you're quite possibly committing an offence.

No you're not, the only time you would have to give it but you can still refuse is when you are being arrested under a specific section, other than that you do not have to provide any information. Same as handcuffs, a Garda can not place handcuffs on you without quoting the specific reason/section you are being detained/arrested under.

conorh91

billie1b wrote: »

the only time you would have to give it but you can still refuse...

I have no idea what this means. You're contradicting yourself.

There is a general right to silence, but in some situations, not giving a response will be an offence. For example, not giving your name.

billie1b

conorh91 wrote: »

I have no idea what this means. You're contradicting yourself.

There is a general right to silence, but in some situations, not giving a response will be an offence. For example, not giving your name.

Im not contradicting myself, i'm just saying when you are arrested you're oblidged to give details but you can still refuse to give them, it can go as far as being brought in front of a judge to get them, thats if the person wants to be a complete arsehołe about it.
In no situation are you under any obligation to give your details to a Garda unless you're being detained/arrested. They can sing and dance for them, threaten you with arrest for not supplying the information but they are only chancing their arm, they know that you have a right to refuse

tomtucker81

Your name and address can be demanded off you under a variety of different legislation that caters for different circumstances, and failure to give such detail correctly is an offence.
Public order, road traffic, criminal law etc etc.
As regards any other detail, eg. What are you doing here? Who were you with?- well, you are not obliged to say anything unless you wish to do so.....

conorh91

billie1b wrote: »

i'm just saying when you are arrested you're oblidged to give details but you can still refuse to give them

But depending on which details, you're possibly committing an offence.

That's what I said earlier, but you took issue with it.

billie1b

conorh91 wrote: »

But depending on which details, you're possibly committing an offence.

That's what I said earlier, but you took issue with it.

I didn't take issue with you, I explained to you what a National Identity Card is and told you that a Garda cannot demand your details of you, which they cannot. They cant just walk up to you on the street and demand your name, nobody can, if they want your name/details you have to be under arrest/under detainment on suspicion of a certain section on something, if you're not you can tell them where to go.

Claw Hammer

billie1b wrote: »

Im not contradicting myself, i'm just saying when you are arrested you're oblidged to give details but you can still refuse to give them, it can go as far as being brought in front of a judge to get them, thats if the person wants to be a complete arsehołe about it.
In no situation are you under any obligation to give your details to a Garda unless you're being detained/arrested. They can sing and dance for them, threaten you with arrest for not supplying the information but they are only chancing their arm, they know that you have a right to refuse

Some guards genuinely don't appear to know that they can't demand certain types of information.

conorh91

billie1b wrote: »

and told you that a Garda cannot demand your details of you, which they cannot. They cant just walk up to you on the street and demand your name, nobody can, if they want your name/details you have to be under arrest/under detainment on suspicion of a certain section on something

This is totally incorrect.

billie1b

conorh91 wrote: »

This is totally incorrect.

Unfortunately not

some1gr8

The reason that i am asking is,

I am NON-white Irish, i went to dublin airport T2 this morning with my wife and 2YO daughter to receive my mom, sitting in arrival, one of my friend was there, we were just chating and waiting for my mom, we were approached by plain cloth Garda, he showed me his badge (not ID), his first question was, what is your immigration status here, i was surprised that there was no obvious reason, so i showed him my job card and asked him why he needs this information, his reply was that he in entitled to this, i asked him again why did he picked us not anybody else and his reply was "r u accusing me of being raciest" and threaten to bring me to garda station. he asked more question to my friend that why he is at airport and how he knows the person that he was receiving at airport.

All this happen in middle 60-80 people in T2, everybody was looking at us. I would have no problem if he came and explained that they are investigating something and he just need to know my name etc. I dont think if any white irish person is stopped, he would ask him about his immigration status, secondly unfortunately my children arent gona be white, would they be discriminated same like this when they grow up..

mackerski

billie1b wrote: »

in most EU countries its in the law citizens over 16/18 have to have some form of photographic identification with them at all times.

Have you checked this assertion? It's certainly the norm that you be able to identify yourself and the ID card is the typical way of doing so. But, for example, with the exception of workers in certain jobs, Germany does not oblige you to actually carry your ID document. Only to be able to produce it if your identity must be established.

Mech1

More of us should be questioning this type of Garda behaviour.

tenifan

some1gr8 wrote: »

I am NON-white Irish, i went to dublin airport T2 this morning with my wife and 2YO daughter to receive my mom, sitting in arrival, one of my friend was there, we were just chating and waiting for my mom, we were approached by plain cloth Garda, he showed me his badge (not ID), his first question was, what is your immigration status here, we told him and then he asked to see our passport (no body carries passport unless u r travelling out of country) he demanded to know my name,
<snip>
I dont think if any white irish person is stopped, he would ask him about his immigration status, secondly unfortunately my children arent gona be white, would they be discriminated same like this when they grow up..

Ah now, there's a difference between racial profiling and discrimination. Thin line, but at the same time if airport security were going to check 1 in 10 people for explosives, should they check the 9 school kids or the guy wearing a turban?

You and your family were hanging around an international airport looking like fish out of water. It sounds like the garda suspected you of being an illegal immigrant. Therefore, he asked you your name and address. You gave it, he moved on.

billie1b

mackerski wrote: »

Have you checked this assertion? It's certainly the norm that you be able to identify yourself and the ID card is the typical way of doing so. But, for example, with the exception of workers in certain jobs, Germany does not oblige you to actually carry your ID document. Only to be able to produce it if your identity must be established.

Hence the reason I said 'most' countries.

conorh91

billie1b wrote: »

Unfortunately not

DPP v Farrell.
Common law power of police to stop and request name without a specific suspicion.

Tordelback

tenifan wrote: »

You and your family were hanging around an international airport looking like fish out of water.

You really need to explain that last part. You appear to be assuming that the OP looked out of place solely because of the colour of his skin, and hence was a legitimate priority subject for police attention. I can't really think of a way in which that isn't discriminatory.

mackerski

billie1b wrote: »

Hence the reason I said 'most' countries.

You haven't answered my question - do you know that it's "most"? How many of them, would you say? Or was it a guess?

sheesh

Any time I have gone through customs in dublin airport there always seems to be 2 black guys being randomly selected for inspection would it really be so hard to just randomly pick 2 white guys at the same time so it didn't look so racist.

As for your problem you could make a big deal of it but it would require that you go down to the station then contact the papers and hope they are in the mood to do a garda bashing article which would achieve nothing. One way to deal with it would be ask the guard for his name and station and write a nice (and I mean nice not sarcastic) to the superintendent saying what happened saying as an Irish citizen you are always happy to help the the guards carry out their business but you feel that asking one person at random to prove their status in the country and no one else when you look slightly different might be perceived as a little racist mention something about your kids being present and a possible effect on them.

conorh91

Mech1 wrote: »

http://www.indymedia.ie/article/82108

Oh I see the problem now.

I was basing my information on O'Malley, The Criminal Process.

I was stupidly ignoring that other magnum opus, Indymedia.

Mech1

conorh91 wrote: »

Oh I see the problem now.

I was basing my information on O'Malley, The Criminal Process.

I was stupidly ignoring that other magnum opus, Indymedia.

I have no idea what or who "indymedia" is, just posting a link to the info available out there, right or wrong i dont know but im listening.

Lmklad

Don't forget the Air, Navigation, Transport Act. From memory, an authorised officer may demand name, address and reason for being in an Aerodrome of any person in the Aerodrome. Think it's Sec33. This is probably more relevant to what the OP was asking.

conorh91

Mech1 wrote: »

I have no idea what or who "indymedia" is, just posting a link to the info available out there, right or wrong i dont know but im listening.

I'm just kidding. Indymedia is basically correct in terms of statutory powers, but statute does not supersede AGS's original, common law powers to stop a person and ask a person's name, without having any specific suspicion of the commission of an offence.

some1gr8

tenifan wrote: »

You and your family were hanging around an international airport looking like fish out of water. It sounds like the garda suspected you of being an illegal immigrant. Therefore, he asked you your name and address. You gave it, he moved on.

to be honest my outlook wouldnt be any different to any normal irish person apart from color (after living here for 14 years). I take it from your post that you would have supported british, in their treatment of irish in 70s & 80s, or they way catholics are treated in north because of specific surnames,

Mech1

conorh91 wrote: »

I'm just kidding. Indymedia is basically correct in terms of statutory powers, but statute does not supersede AGS's original, common law powers to stop a person and ask a person's name, without having any specific suspicion of the commission of an offence.

ok plain english please! if a garda asks my name am i legally obliged to give it?

conorh91

Mech1 wrote: »

ok plain english please! if a garda asks my name am i legally obliged to give it?

Yes.

I mean, obviously you could imagine situations where a Garda is acting with malice, so an obligation would not exist. But that's impossible to establish. An obligation is to be presumed.

I guess the clearest thing to say is a Garda has powers to stop and ask a person their name, without specifically and reasonably suspecting that person of having committed a crime.

Mech1

conorh91 wrote: »

Yes.

I mean, obviously you could imagine situations where a Garda is acting with malice, so an obligation would not exist. But that's impossible to establish. An obligation is to be presumed.

I guess the clearest thing to say is a Garda has powers to stop and ask a person their name, without specifically and reasonably suspecting that person of having committed a crime.

ok now in plain english again, under what law?

Lmklad

billie1b wrote: »

Plain english Mech1, no he/she may not, they need a specific reason for you to hand over your name/details.

Yes. In an aerodrome.

MarkAnthony

Mech1 wrote: »

ok plain english please! if a garda asks my name am i legally obliged to give it?

An answer can only be distilled to it's simplest form. From a lay perspective the various sources of law can be confusing. The simple answer without explanation is yes. Any expansion upon that answer will require some level of 'legal language'. Realistically a quick google of common law will yield an accessible answer. Essentially though it's 'case law' or 'Judge made Law'.

billie1b

Lmklad wrote: »

Yes. In an aerodrome.

I didn't know we were talking about ian Aerodrome here, i'm going by if your standing on the street etc. if your in an Airport or Port and Airport Police/security - Port Police/security ask for your ID or name you can refuse and ask for a Garda to be called, same as any other member of a security profession

Mech1

The simple answer may not be what we need to know, if i am not in an aerodrome, not driving a vehicle, just walking legally unintoxicated along the footpath on the way to wherever, can i refuse without penalty?

conorh91

Mech1 wrote: »

ok now in plain english again, under what law?

The common law, as defined by MarkAnthony, and as stated in the pretty landmark case of DPP v Fagan.

Prior to Fagan, it was believed that police did not have a common law power to stop and question without a specific and reasonable suspicion. Faganchanged that.

billie1b

mackerski wrote: »

You haven't answered my question - do you know that it's "most"? How many of them, would you say? Or was it a guess?

Albania
Belgium
Belarus
Bosnia
Bulgaria
Croatia
Cyprus
Czech Republic
Egypt
Estonia
Germany
Greece
Hungary
Israel
Latvia
Luxemborg
Malta
Moldova
Netherlands
Poland
Portugal
Romania
Slovakia
Slovenia
Spain
Turkey

All of the above is compulsory to have the ID card from certain ages, two or three of the above countries do not require you to carry them but if stopped by police and you do not have it you can be taken to the nearest station to prove who you are and a fine may be issued or you can be given a certain amount of days to produce your ID

mackerski

billie1b wrote: »

All of the above is compulsory to have the ID card from certain ages, two or three of the above countries do not require you to carry them but if stopped by police and you do not have it you can be taken to the nearest station to prove who you are and a fine may be issued or you can be given a certain amount of days to produce your ID

2 or 3? Are you sure? I'm not. It's useful to be sure of these things before claiming them as precedent. Because not being obliged to carry ID but having an obligation to establish it later is a lot like what we actually do here. It's a bit careless to claim that "most" other countries are different without actually knowing that to be true.

BornToKill

Lmklad wrote: »

Don't forget the Air, Navigation, Transport Act. From memory, an authorised officer may demand name, address and reason for being in an Aerodrome of any person in the Aerodrome. Think it's Sec33. This is probably more relevant to what the OP was asking.

Lmklad wrote: »

Yes. In an aerodrome.

An authorised officer under this legislation is distinct from a member of an Garda Síochána. It isn't relevant at all to the discussion.

Mech1

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/justice/arrests/questioning_and_surveillance.html

Are these guys giving out wrong info?

Quoted from above link.

"Common law powers

Most of the powers given to the Gardaí to stop and question members of the public are set out in law (known as statutory powers). There are, however, a number of instances where a Garda is entitled to stop and question you where no statutory power exists. This is known as a common law power.

An example of this would be where a Garda observes you acting suspiciously late at night, in an area where a lot of crimes are being committed. The Garda is entitled to stop you in order to detect and prevent crime. You are under no legal obligation to co-operate with the Garda and the Garda cannot use force to restrain your freedom under common law, short of arresting you.

However, if the Garda has reasonable grounds for suspecting that you committed an offence, the Garda can use a statutory power to demand your name and address. If you refuse to provide them, then the Garda can arrest you.

The Gardaí have a common law power to stop motorists at random in order to detect and prevent crime. This power can be used, for example, to stop cars near pubs to identify drunk drivers or in order to check cars passing through an area where a lot of crime had been committed.
Statutory powers

As outlined above, a Garda is entitled to stop a motorist under common law for the purpose of detecting and preventing crime. The Garda is also entitled to stop a motorist under a statutory power given under Section 109 of the Road Traffic Act 1961, which obliges a motorist to stop his/her vehicle when required to do so by a Garda. This statutory power is given to the Gardaí for the purpose of inspecting vehicle tax, insurance certificates, driving licenses and road worthiness of vehicles. Unlike common law power, it is confined to road traffic offences.

There are a considerable number of statutory provisions which allow the Gardaí to stop anyone for certain purposes, but there is only one which specifically permits a Garda to stop and question someone, short of arresting the person.

Section 30 of the Offences Against the State Act 1939 allows a Garda to stop and interrogate anyone whom the Garda suspects of having committed or being about to commit an offence under the 1939 Act or an offence scheduled for the purposes of the Act. (There are a number of offences listed as being scheduled offences, such as, firearms offences and explosive offences). This gives the Gardaí the power to stop a suspect in a public place. It also gives them the power to stop any vehicle, or any ship, boat or other vessel for the purposes of questioning and searching, and if necessary, arresting the suspect."

Lmklad

BornToKill wrote: »

An authorised officer under this legislation is distinct from a member of an Garda Síochána. It isn't relevant at all to the discussion.

Wrong. The op was questioned in an airport. An authorised officer is a Garda or an airport police officer or other that the Minister adds to the Act.

Lmklad

billie1b wrote: »

I didn't know we were talking about ian Aerodrome here, i'm going by if your standing on the street etc. if your in an Airport or Port and Airport Police/security - Port Police/security ask for your ID or name you can refuse and ask for a Garda to be called, same as any other member of a security profession

Wrong. Airport Police are authorised officers under the Act. They are granted similar powers to Gardai inside the airport. If you fail to give your name to an APO he can arrest you. He will then call the Gardai. The OP began this thread because of an issue at an airport. I'm replying to his query.

MarkAnthony

Mech1 wrote: »

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/justice/arrests/questioning_and_surveillance.html

Are these guys giving out wrong info?

Quoted from above link.

"Common law powers

Most of the powers given to the Gardaí to stop and question members of the public are set out in law (known as statutory powers). There are, however, a number of instances where a Garda is entitled to stop and question you where no statutory power exists. This is known as a common law power.

An example of this would be where a Garda observes you acting suspiciously late at night, in an area where a lot of crimes are being committed. The Garda is entitled to stop you in order to detect and prevent crime. You are under no legal obligation to co-operate with the Garda and the Garda cannot use force to restrain your freedom under common law, short of arresting you.

However, if the Garda has reasonable grounds for suspecting that you committed an offence, the Garda can use a statutory power to demand your name and address. If you refuse to provide them, then the Garda can arrest you.

The Gardaí have a common law power to stop motorists at random in order to detect and prevent crime. This power can be used, for example, to stop cars near pubs to identify drunk drivers or in order to check cars passing through an area where a lot of crime had been committed.
Statutory powers

As outlined above, a Garda is entitled to stop a motorist under common law for the purpose of detecting and preventing crime. The Garda is also entitled to stop a motorist under a statutory power given under Section 109 of the Road Traffic Act 1961, which obliges a motorist to stop his/her vehicle when required to do so by a Garda. This statutory power is given to the Gardaí for the purpose of inspecting vehicle tax, insurance certificates, driving licenses and road worthiness of vehicles. Unlike common law power, it is confined to road traffic offences.

There are a considerable number of statutory provisions which allow the Gardaí to stop anyone for certain purposes, but there is only one which specifically permits a Garda to stop and question someone, short of arresting the person.

Section 30 of the Offences Against the State Act 1939 allows a Garda to stop and interrogate anyone whom the Garda suspects of having committed or being about to commit an offence under the 1939 Act or an offence scheduled for the purposes of the Act. (There are a number of offences listed as being scheduled offences, such as, firearms offences and explosive offences). This gives the Gardaí the power to stop a suspect in a public place. It also gives them the power to stop any vehicle, or any ship, boat or other vessel for the purposes of questioning and searching, and if necessary, arresting the suspect."

They frequently give out incomplete information, that's not a criticism of them - it's just impossible to keep that infor simple, complete and current.

I'm still reading through Farrell - feel free to do the same and I'd be delighted to discuss it with you.

http://www.bailii.org/ie/cases/IEHC/2009/H368.html

Incidentally I also see DPP v.Kulimushi [2011] IEHC 476 but that seems to deal specifically with arrest.

billie1b

Lmklad wrote: »

Wrong. Airport Police are authorised officers under the Act. They are granted similar powers to Gardai inside the airport. If you fail to give your name to an APO he can arrest you. He will then call the Gardai. The OP began this thread because of an issue at an airport. I'm replying to his query.

Totally wrong! An APO officer is only classed as an Airport Security Officer in court, they cannot demand your information, they need a member of Gardaí for you to be arrested, Airport Polica can only detain you.

sheesh

tenifan wrote: »

Ah now, there's a difference between racial profiling and discrimination.

Yes but lets acknowledge that its got to be a pain in the butt for the OP

MarkAnthony

There is an incredible amount of willy waggling going on in here. Could we not just have a nice chat with the occasional bit of law thrown in for good measure?

conorh91

Mech1 wrote: »

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/justice/arrests/questioning_and_surveillance.html

Are these guys giving out wrong info?

I'm not 100% sure. I'd have to go back and read Fagan and Farrell. Incidentally, when I mentioned Farrell earlier, I should have said Fagan. Although they both describe the Gardai's common law powers in substantially the same way and to that extent, are fairly interchangeable.

Anyway, getting back to your question, I guess it's a bit like asking "is there an obligation to comply with a Garda's common law powers to stop you".

It's possible that the answer is technically "no". I'm not 100% sure on that. However, if you refuse to stop, or refuse to give your name, I seriously doubt that a reasonable suspicion will not be formed in the mind of any Garda making the request. Upon that suspicion being formed, he will have a statutory power to stop you anyway. So even if the answer is "no", it's possibly moot.

Mech1

conorh91 wrote: »

I'm not 100% sure. I'd have to go back and read Fagan and Farrell. Incidentally, when I mentioned Farrell earlier, I should have said Fagan. Although they both describe the Gardai's common law powers in substantially the same way and to that extent, are fairly interchangeable.

Anyway, getting back to your question, I guess it's a bit like asking "is there an obligation to comply with a Garda's common law powers to stop you".

It's possible that the answer is technically "no". I'm not 100% sure on that. However, if you refuse to stop, or refuse to give your name, I seriously doubt that a reasonable suspicion will not be formed in the mind of any Garda making the request. Upon that suspicion being formed, he will have a statutory power to stop you anyway. So even if the answer is "no", it's possibly moot.

And that would be an abuse of there authority? they cant just be allowed to make things up ( formed in the mind) because im adhering to my rights?

conorh91

Mech1 wrote: »

And that would be an abuse of there authority? they cant just be allowed to make things up because im adhering to my rights?

The courts have traditionally been reluctant to analyse too deeply the minds of police officers, partly because reasonable suspicion has a subjective component.

In other words, reasonableness partly depends on the personality of the Garda concerned.

The threshold for reasonable suspicion is therefore quite a low one. For example, hearsay is a very common source of Garda suspicion. The courts detest hearsay. Hearsay cannot be admitted into evidence in court, but it can ground an arrest. That's just an indication of how low the bar is.

DPP v Cash is a very interesting recent case. In that case, a full division of the Supreme Court held that evidence which was unconstitutionally derived could legitimately afford a Garda a reasonable suspicion. (or, being more exact/ pedantic, they refused to say that it couldn't)