Renault sales rise on improving demand in Europe

fmcg_scribe · 29-10-2014 11:46pm #1

http://europe.autonews.com/article/20141029/ANE/141029808/renault-sales-rise-on-improving-demand-in-europe

The article reiterates the points I have made in several previous posts about Renault having to withdraw from many parts of Europe and about the company's increasing reliance on its Dacia brand to drive sales in Europe.

One point about the European car industry that has often been overlooked is that were was too much production capacity when the international recession started around 2007/2008, so a shakeout was going to come at some point.

At the moment, many of the European volume car makers that are doing well are quite happy that customers ordering new cars from them have to wait for 6-12 months to take delivery.

Indeed, I have heard some franchise dealers (usually for German brands) talk about a move away from "push" production towards "pull" production, which can mean that almost all of the cars produced by a car maker will be made only to order, which will have ripple effects on the number of demo cars and pre-reg cars available at franchise dealerships over the medium to long term. This is in turn might shore up used car values for those brands.

Tragedy · 30-10-2014 12:02am

I see. More nonsense about 6-12month waiting lists that only exist in your head (e.g.: http://www.raccars.co.uk/news/article/2804/the-longest-wait-for-a-new-car - the only car mentioned with a waiting list above 6 months is the Mercedes GL, the only other car I'm aware of is the BMW I8)

Which 'European volume car makers' have waiting lists of 6-12months for the majority of their models?

Which franchise dealers are talking about a move away from push to pull production? Specifically. You always mention various unspecified 'mechanics' and 'dealers' and whomever else it suits to give your nonsensical ramblings added credence - in the absence of any independent evidence whatsoever.

The fact that you think any major car manufacturer in the world uses something as simple and antiquated as push or pull production is laughable.

fmcg_scribe · 30-10-2014 2:33am

Tragedy wrote: »

I see. More nonsense about 6-12month waiting lists that only exist in your head (e.g.: http://www.raccars.co.uk/news/article/2804/the-longest-wait-for-a-new-car - the only car mentioned with a waiting list above 6 months is the Mercedes GL, the only other car I'm aware of is the BMW I8)

Which 'European volume car makers' have waiting lists of 6-12months for the majority of their models?

Which franchise dealers are talking about a move away from push to pull production? Specifically. You always mention various unspecified 'mechanics' and 'dealers' and whomever else it suits to give your nonsensical ramblings added credence - in the absence of any independent evidence whatsoever.

The fact that you think any major car manufacturer in the world uses something as simple and antiquated as push or pull production is laughable.

Order lead times
Lots of links about this (list is not exhaustive):
http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/bmw/i8/89003/bmw-i8-waiting-list-over-a-year-long
http://www.driving.co.uk/news/news-waiting-times-grow-for-most-popular-new-cars/
http://www.parkers.co.uk/cars/advice/news/Archive/Longest-ever-new-car-waiting-lists/
http://www.autoblog.com/2014/01/31/land-rover-range-rover-sport-4-month-wait/
http://green.autoblog.com/2014/02/04/bmw-i3-wait-list-six-months/
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/caradvice/honestjohn/9118387/Why-no-discount-on-a-BMW-X3.html
http://www.motorauthority.com/news/1089932_latest-range-rovers-generate-four-month-waiting-lists
http://www.gtspirit.com/2014/08/09/select-range-rover-models-with-6-month-waiting-lists/
http://www.am-online.com/roadtests/review/porsche-s-macan-is-the-sportiest-suv-in-the-segment/34900/
http://www.myaudiq5.com/index.php/topic/4386-joined-the-waiting-list/
http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/audi-a1-demand-outstrips-supply
http://www.honestjohn.co.uk/news/buying-and-selling/2010-08/waiting-lists-a-waste-of-time/
http://www.motorfinanceonline.com/news/the-waiting-game-293285361
http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/ferrari-vows-cut-waiting-times
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bentley#Deliveries.2C_profits_and_staff
http://www.aclassclub.co.uk/forum/longest-uk-delivery-time_topic1000.html
http://www.caradvice.com.au/296560/mercedes-benz-whittles-back-a45-amg-and-cla45-amg-waiting-lists-to-end-of-2015/
http://www.carsuk.net/mercedes-a-class-production-outsourced/
http://www.car4play.com/forum/post/index.htm?t=13743
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-03-08/audi-to-add-models-expand-in-emerging-markets-to-push-bmw-out-of-top-spot.html

Push/pull sales strategies
http://www.bmwblog.com/2008/08/05/bmw-to-increases-prices-cut-production-and-reduce-the-number-of-leases/
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/can-us-auto-industry-make-the-switch-from-push-to-pull/

There are lots of reasons to move to a pull sales strategy, not least the supply and cost of raw materials:
http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2014/jul/08/raw-metal-prices-warning-uk-manufacturers-volatility
http://www.bmwi.de/English/Redaktion/Pdf/raw-materials-strategy,property=pdf,bereich=bmwi2012,sprache=en,rwb=true.pdf

18MonthsaSlave · 30-10-2014 10:55am

Makes sense for lease Customers. I know I have to replace my car in February. I know I have to place my order in the next weeks so that my car will be built for me and delivered to my dealer in time.
Of course, if I'm being flexible I expect the manufacturers can economise and this feeds in to lower prices.
Even Opel have 30,000 orders for their new Corsa(not an exciting, in demand car) which is just entering production now.

Based on the car I'm planning to order I'm not expecting them to have it in stock in the colour I want or with the specific extras I want.

The really interested ones can even dictate which calendar week they want their car built in.
for instance the VW UP! is getting dual window switches from CW 45 onward outside of an official facelift program so those who know this can tell their dealer to pencil it in for a week after that rather than before.

Tragedy · 30-10-2014 1:07pm

fmcg_scribe wrote: »

Order lead times
Lots of links about this (list is not exhaustive):
http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/bmw/i8/89003/bmw-i8-waiting-list-over-a-year-long

I already mentioned I8, a niche sports car.

http://www.driving.co.uk/news/news-waiting-times-grow-for-most-popular-new-cars/

The only vehicle mentioned with a delay of over 6 months is the Merc GL, another niche model already mentioned.

http://www.parkers.co.uk/cars/advice/news/Archive/Longest-ever-new-car-waiting-lists/

A 4 year old article with the very first text being "Average lead time for new cars is between 10-12 weeks"

http://www.autoblog.com/2014/01/31/land-rover-range-rover-sport-4-month-wait/

An article about a 4 month wait where the VP for Range Rover states the waiting list should decrease in time?

No point going through the rest considering the first 4 show that your opening statement is factually untrue.

Push/pull sales strategies
http://www.bmwblog.com/2008/08/05/bmw-to-increases-prices-cut-production-and-reduce-the-number-of-leases/
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/can-us-auto-industry-make-the-switch-from-push-to-pull/

The first article is from 6 years ago and quotes someone from the 'BMW Car Club of America'.
The second article equates push production with overproduction, when they are not the same thing.

Any manufacturer that tried to operate on either a push or a pull strategy would be quite quickly out of business.

Here, have some free education: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Push%E2%80%93pull_strategy

There are lots of reasons to move to a pull sales strategy, not least the supply and cost of raw materials:

Push and pull have little influence on commodity risk. Hedging, futures/forwards and call options do.

http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2014/jul/08/raw-metal-prices-warning-uk-manufacturers-volatility

Nothing about operations/demand management.

http://www.bmwi.de/English/Redaktion/Pdf/raw-materials-strategy,property=pdf,bereich=bmwi2012,sprache=en,rwb=true.pdf

Nothing about operations/demand management.

So, umpteen links and they have nothing to do with your claims.

Let's go through this again;

At the moment, many of the European volume car makers that are doing well are quite happy that customers ordering new cars from them have to wait for 6-12 months to take delivery.

So far we have the Mercedes GL (sells around 3-4000 per year globally) and the BMW i8 (1700 predicted sales for 2015).

Again, where are the European volume car makers that are doing well and that are quite happy with having 6-12 month waiting lists?

Indeed, I have heard some franchise dealers (usually for German brands) talk about a move away from "push" production towards "pull" production, which can mean that almost all of the cars produced by a car maker will be made only to order

What franchise dealers?
Names please.

Or you know, you could just stop spoofing.

fmcg_scribe · 31-10-2014 7:55pm

Tragedy wrote: »

I already mentioned I8, a niche sports car.

The only vehicle mentioned with a delay of over 6 months is the Merc GL, another niche model already mentioned.

A 4 year old article with the very first text being "Average lead time for new cars is between 10-12 weeks"

An article about a 4 month wait where the VP for Range Rover states the waiting list should decrease in time?

No point going through the rest considering the first 4 show that your opening statement is factually untrue.

The first article is from 6 years ago and quotes someone from the 'BMW Car Club of America'.
The second article equates push production with overproduction, when they are not the same thing.

Any manufacturer that tried to operate on either a push or a pull strategy would be quite quickly out of business.

Here, have some free education: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Push%E2%80%93pull_strategy

Push and pull have little influence on commodity risk. Hedging, futures/forwards and call options do.

Nothing about operations/demand management.

Nothing about operations/demand management.

So, umpteen links and they have nothing to do with your claims.

Let's go through this again;

So far we have the Mercedes GL (sells around 3-4000 per year globally) and the BMW i8 (1700 predicted sales for 2015).

Again, where are the European volume car makers that are doing well and that are quite happy with having 6-12 month waiting lists?

What franchise dealers?
Names please.

Or you know, you could just stop spoofing.

Tragedy - You seem to have difficulty reading and identifying key information in articles. Further, you don't seem to know much about the motor industry or about business generally - the "tragedy" is that you probably think that you do but you clearly don't, so your user name fits you well. You'd be better off not criticising or commenting on things that you don't understand.

Order lead times
The link http://www.carwow.co.uk/new-car-delivery-times (mentioned in http://www.driving.co.uk/news/news-waiting-times-grow-for-most-popular-new-cars/) lists waiting time data for 24 brands. It's clear that there are sharp dividing lines among certain brands and among certain models.

Generally, for the brands and models that are (known to be) selling well, waiting times seem to be between 3 and 5 months. There are several cases of 6-8 months and a few extreme cases of 12 months.

http://www.driving.co.uk/news/news-waiting-times-grow-for-most-popular-new-cars/ (published June 2014) mentions:

Merc GL - 12 months (at least you picked up on that much)
Merc CLA and S class, BMW X3 and X5 - up to 6 months (last June, a BMW dealer in Guildford told me that the actual waiting list for the new X5 is actually nearer to 9-12 months)
Audi Q5 - up to 5 months

http://www.parkers.co.uk/cars/advice/news/Archive/Longest-ever-new-car-waiting-lists/ makes the following points:

"[UK] Dealerships selling new cars are fighting a losing battle against low monthly vehicle allocations, a shortage of stock and factory shutdowns."
Audi Q5 - officially 12 weeks lead time, in reality 9 months.
Land Rover - 8 months.
'Cars are just not stored in the UK any more. Most companies have taken
Toyota's lead where they build to order rather than store cars in anticipation of a sale. Because we require right-hand-drive cars, it doesn't make sense for the manufacturers to over-produce cars for the UK.'
Ford, Vauxhall and Honda all shut down factories for a limited period last year when demand plummeted, so when demand increased it was impossible to react quickly enough to customer's requirements and this created a shortfall in supply.
Cars from Asia tend to sit on boats for between six and ten weeks, further prolonging waiting times.

The article was written four years ago and I agree that some of the points made are less true now because some car makers battened down the hatches a lot after the recession hit around 2007/2008 and have since reversed or mitigated some of those decisions. That said, the following points still hold true for a large number of European car makers:

Quarterly or monthly vehicle allocations seem to be becoming a norm, especially for German car makers.
Shortage of nearly new cars.
Factory shutdowns - Some car makers such as Ford have kept shutting plants and moving production to different countries (this was one of the reasons why the the launch of the new Ford Mondeo was delayed) and a large proportion of premium and luxury cars made in Europe (notably the UK) are for export only to Asia and the Americas.

http://www.autoblog.com/2014/01/31/land-rover-range-rover-sport-4-month-wait/ (published January 2014) mentions four month lead times but the data in http://www.carwow.co.uk/new-car-delivery-times suggests that delivery lead times for a Range Rover is 16-24 weeks and 20-28 weeks for a Range Rover Sport, no change since article was written earlier this year.

http://green.autoblog.com/2014/02/04/bmw-i3-wait-list-six-months/ mentions (as at February 2014) a 6 month waiting for the BMW i3.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/caradvice/honestjohn/9118387/Why-no-discount-on-a-BMW-X3.html (published March 2012) mentions a 6 month waiting list for second generation X3, which was launched in autumn 2010.

http://www.carwow.co.uk/new-car-delivery-times mentions 5-6 months. Again, last June, a BMW dealer in Guildford told me that the actual waiting list for the current X3 is actually nearer to 9 months.

http://www.motorauthority.com/news/1089932_latest-range-rovers-generate-four-month-waiting-lists mentions an *average* 4 month delivery lead time across the current Range Rover range. The data in http://www.carwow.co.uk/new-car-delivery-times gives specifics.

http://www.gtspirit.com/2014/08/09/select-range-rover-models-with-6-month-waiting-lists/ (published August 2014) mentions 6 months delivery lead times for the current Range Rover and Range Rover Sport.

http://www.am-online.com/roadtests/review/porsche-s-macan-is-the-sportiest-suv-in-the-segment/34900/ (published April 2014) mentions that new Porsche Macan has a 12 month delivery lead time (in the UK, at least).

http://www.myaudiq5.com/index.php/topic/4386-joined-the-waiting-list/ (Audi owners discussion board - discussion from August 2013 about Q5 waiting lists) consensus was that average delivery lead time was 7 months although http://www.carwow.co.uk/new-car-delivery-times mentions 14-20 weeks.

http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/audi-a1-demand-outstrips-supply (probably published in 2010 around the time when the car was launched) mentions high demand exceeding supply. http://www.carwow.co.uk/new-car-delivery-times mentions 20 weeks for the A1.

http://www.honestjohn.co.uk/news/buying-and-selling/2010-08/waiting-lists-a-waste-of-time/ (published August 2010) lists waiting times for a large number of models. The data seems to accord with http://www.carwow.co.uk/new-car-delivery-times.

http://www.motorfinanceonline.com/news/the-waiting-game-293285361 (published November 2010) makes general comments about the waiting lists in the UK at that time.

http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/ferrari-vows-cut-waiting-times (probably published around 2010) mentions a 2 year delivery lead time for the 458 and 18 months for the 599, 430 Coupe, 430 Scuderia, and 612 Scaglietti.

OK, Ferrari is not really a volume car producer but waiting times for its current range are still around 2 years: http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/ferrari/85823/ferrari-makes-record-profit-despite-building-fewer-cars

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bentley#Deliveries.2C_profits_and_staff mentions that delivery lead times for Bentleys have often reached 12 months but it's hard to get current data (18 months has been mentioned for some of the current models).

http://www.aclassclub.co.uk/forum/longest-uk-delivery-time_topic1000.html (Mercedes A class discussion board - discussion from summer 2013 about waiting lists for the new A class) suggests 5-6 months although http://www.carwow.co.uk/new-car-delivery-times indicates 12 weeks.

http://www.caradvice.com.au/296560/mercedes-benz-whittles-back-a45-amg-and-cla45-amg-waiting-lists-to-end-of-2015/ (published July 2014) discusses international waiting lists for the new A class and the efforts that Mercedes has been making to reduce the lead times from 12-18 months.

http://www.carsuk.net/mercedes-a-class-production-outsourced/ (published July 2012) discusses Mercedes's decision to outsource production of a portion of A class prduction to a car maker in Finland thus preventing waiting lists from getting to big.

http://www.car4play.com/forum/post/index.htm?t=13743 (motoring discussion board - discssion from April 2013 about VW Golf waiting lists) suggests that average delivery time was 5 months although http://www.carwow.co.uk/new-car-delivery-times indicates 9-14 weeks.

Push/pull strategies
http://www.bmwblog.com/2008/08/05/bmw-to-increases-prices-cut-production-and-reduce-the-number-of-leases/ (published August 2008) makes the point that BMW was reverting to a pull strategy, which is followed by most non-American car makers.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/can-us-auto-industry-make-the-switch-from-push-to-pull/ (published October 2009) discusses the efforts being made in the American motor indutry to shift from push to pull so that "supply matches demand and prices stay firm".

When discussing push and pull, it can be appropriate to split out supply chain management from production/order fulfillment. Some businesses operate a push-pull hybrid strategy for managing raw materials but use pull for production, so that each production unit built is built to order. Dell is a good example of this.

In the case of car makers:

Just-in-time (JIT) inventory management has become the norm for most volume car makers, especially outside the US. Each car maker might have a different strategy for mitigating supply and pricing problems with raw materials but at the end of the day none of them wants to hold more inventory than they have to.
Building cars only to order is a practice now followed across most European and Asian car makers - from Audi to Toyota.

This is why a pull sales strategy is followed by most European and Asian car makers.

So, building cars to order is the starting point for waiting lists in each country. Lead times can go up for any number of reasons, including:

Demand completely outstripping supply.
Production being diverted to certain countries or regions.
Shortages of certain components or raw materials - or disruptions in supply of same.
Production of certain models being limited to certain factories or countries.

Conclusion
Going to back to my original post, I wrote:

"At the moment, many of the European volume car makers that are doing well are quite happy that customers ordering new cars from them have to wait for 6-12 months to take delivery." That point still stands. If the likes of Audi, BMW, Mercedes, Jaguar Land Rover, Porsche, Bentley, Ferrari, and Lamborghini were unhappy about the current waiting lists, they would be doing more to reduce them, such as increasing list prices or outsourcing production while they buid more in-house production capacity.
"Indeed, I have heard some franchise dealers (usually for German brands) talk about a move away from "push" production towards "pull" production, which can mean that almost all of the cars produced by a car maker will be made only to order, which will have ripple effects on the number of demo cars and pre-reg cars available at franchise dealerships over the medium to long term. This is in turn might shore up used car values for those brands." This tittle-tattle chimes with how car makers are currently running their businesses. If all these car makers were following the push strategy that you seem to be obsessed with, waiting lists would be few and far between.

Therefore, I'm happy with what I wrote and there's a lot of data to back it up.

You have nothing to support your rebuttal of what I wrote.

Atlantic Dawn · 31-10-2014 8:15pm

I would say it's more to do with their own bank, same goes for VW. Lending money to people to buy your own product makes good business sense and if they default on payment you then have a branch network capable of reselling it.

Tragedy · 31-10-2014 8:18pm

So, you ignore everything I posted, repost previous links that don't state what you insist they do, post even MORE links that don't say the things you say you do, and tell everyone else that they don't know what they're talking about?

You still have yet to post any evidence of 'large european volume car manufacturers happy with waiting lists of between 6-12 months'.

You still have yet to post any evidence that operations systems have a large influence on commodity shocks for car manufacturers.

You still have yet to post any evidence of anything that you've stated.

I've caught you out lying before, that time you also ignored all evidence to the contrary, posted many empty links containing nothing relevant, and finally resorted to stating 'You're wrong, I can't explain why, here are 213 more links and hopefully you'll give up and shut up'

Man, stop lying. Just stop it.

mgbgt1978 · 31-10-2014 8:33pm

Could be earning his income on 'pay-per-click'.....;).

Just a thought.

fmcg_scribe · 01-11-2014 12:22am

Tragedy wrote: »

So, you ignore everything I posted, repost previous links that don't state what you insist they do, post even MORE links that don't say the things you say you do, and tell everyone else that they don't know what they're talking about?

You still have yet to post any evidence of 'large european volume car manufacturers happy with waiting lists of between 6-12 months'.

You still have yet to post any evidence that operations systems have a large influence on commodity shocks for car manufacturers.

You still have yet to post any evidence of anything that you've stated.

I've caught you out lying before, that time you also ignored all evidence to the contrary, posted many empty links containing nothing relevant, and finally resorted to stating 'You're wrong, I can't explain why, here are 213 more links and hopefully you'll give up and shut up'

Man, stop lying. Just stop it.

Tragic...

fmcg_scribe · 01-11-2014 12:27am

mgbgt1978 wrote: »

Could be earning his income on 'pay-per-click'.....;).

Just a thought.

Never heard of the Internet and hypertext, eh?

You're not really adding any value to the original topic of this discussion.

Tragedy · 01-11-2014 12:27am

At the moment, many of the European volume car makers that are doing well are quite happy that customers ordering new cars from them have to wait for 6-12 months to take delivery.

So far I brought up the BMW i8 and the Merc GL as the only examples, you included Ferrari. You have posted at least 20 links that state that European volume car makers do not have a 6-12month waiting list.

Tragic.

Indeed, I have heard some franchise dealers (usually for German brands) talk about a move away from "push" production towards "pull" production

Still haven't posted any evidence of franchise dealers talking about a move from one production type to another.

Nor have you explained why a franchise dealer would have any insight on such a move.

Tragic.

I eagerly await your next thread where you again spout nonsense, tell us things you have heard from unspecified people in the know, and bombard anyone who disagrees with you with copious links that you copy/pasted without even reading.

Tragic.

You're not really adding any value to the original topic of this discussion.

Oh the irony!

Tragic.

fmcg_scribe · 01-11-2014 12:39am

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

I would say it's more to do with their own bank, same goes for VW. Lending money to people to buy your own product makes good business sense and if they default on payment you then have a branch network capable of reselling it.

Agreed. Many car makers now have sizeable financial services operations.

When things are going well, those finance operations and other lenders enable many car buyers to buy or lease cars that perhaps they could not afford if they had to take out a loan, so that's a win-win for each car maker in terms of "selling" one of its new cars to you and charging you all the extras around the financing.

However, when things are going badly, the finance operations can drag a car maker down. For example, around 2008/2009, BMW and Mercedes both had to do massive write downs of their leased cars in U.S. because customers were defaulting on the agreements and there was significant asset price deflation. For a while, this put a lot of pressure on both car makers and it probably spurred both of them on to focus more on China.

mgbgt1978 · 01-11-2014 11:20am

fmcg_scribe wrote: »

You're not really adding any value to the original topic of this discussion.

But it's not really a discussion, is it ?
It's just yet another of your rambling threads where you stick up fifty vague links (1/2 of which just might be of interest to a US motorist).....very few of which concern the Irish Motorist.

Neither is it original in the truest sense. It's just some regurgitated Journalists opinion

All your 28 or so Threads start with a link to some article or other which you feel must be of interest to boards users.
Maybe try coming up with an original thought/question instead of just linking to conjecture and irrelevant information.
Then perhaps people could actually discuss your own opinions rather than those of a load of motoring journalists.

This is not a personal attack, I'm simply pointing out that all your threads are simply links to subjects which many (if not most) Irish motorists have absolutely no interest in reading.

ShaunieVW · 01-11-2014 11:30am

Id rather wait a few months for a decent car. I had a 2010 megane estate for a few days a fortnight ago. What a rubbish car. Less than 100k on the clock and all the interior was worn. They handbrake cover kept coming off in my hand. The 1.5dci is great on fuel but shockingly unrefined. I handled like a boat, might be something to do with the boot floor being PLASTIC!!

I left the experience thinking how they make the cars and worse and cheaper to sell them as Dacias? Ive driven a lot of cars of all different kinds but this is by far the worst yoke I have ever driven. So yeah ld wait a few months so I dont have to drive in a miserable sh*tbox everyday.

18MonthsaSlave · 01-11-2014 1:30pm

ShaunieVW wrote: »

Id rather wait a few months for a decent car. I had a 2010 megane estate for a few days a fortnight ago. What a rubbish car. Less than 100k on the clock and all the interior was worn. They handbrake cover kept coming off in my hand. The 1.5dci is great on fuel but shockingly unrefined. I handled like a boat, might be something to do with the boot floor being PLASTIC!!

I left the experience thinking how they make the cars and worse and cheaper to sell them as Dacias? Ive driven a lot of cars of all different kinds but this is by far the worst yoke I have ever driven. So yeah ld wait a few months so I dont have to drive in a miserable sh*tbox everyday.

excessive wear on a four year old hack assigned to the manufacturer rather than the unknown keeper of the car who abused it over the last four years; that is unfair.
Having run a Megane 1.5dci from new since feb 2011 I can confirm that the car is refined, handles well at autobahn speeds, durable and has been utterly reliable. I look forward to my next one.

BMJD · 01-11-2014 3:52pm

supervento · 02-11-2014 1:45pm

ShaunieVW wrote: »

Id rather wait a few months for a decent car. I had a 2010 megane estate for a few days a fortnight ago. What a rubbish car. Less than 100k on the clock and all the interior was worn. They handbrake cover kept coming off in my hand. The 1.5dci is great on fuel but shockingly unrefined. I handled like a boat, might be something to do with the boot floor being PLASTIC!!

I left the experience thinking how they make the cars and worse and cheaper to sell them as Dacias? Ive driven a lot of cars of all different kinds but this is by far the worst yoke I have ever driven. So yeah ld wait a few months so I dont have to drive in a miserable sh*tbox everyday.

from what i see i think some cars get a rough life of it compared to others, usually depending on the driver/ drivers. In general though in my opinion the Renault's of the last few years seem to be well put together, and are in general as well built and as reliable now as brands such as Toyota.

I would agree with you though they are often let down by there interiors in terms of hard plastics etc and some models are mundane or uninspiring to drive...
however any of the Renault's i have driven have handled normally, sounds like the one you drove had a hard life of it....

p.s you will find reinforced polyamide spare wheel recess (boot floor) in flagship Audi's that start at a price tag of €100,000 i.e audi a8..... this debuted on the 2011 model Audi A8

maybe Renault are ahead of their game in this regard.

18MonthsaSlave · 02-11-2014 5:07pm

supervento wrote: »

from what i see i think some cars get a rough life of it compared to others, usually depending on the driver/ drivers. In general though in my opinion the Renault's of the last few years seem to be well put together, and are in general as well built and as reliable now as brands such as Toyota.

I would agree with you though they are often let down by there interiors in terms of hard plastics etc and some models are mundane or uninspiring to drive...
however any of the Renault's i have driven have handled normally, sounds like the one you drove had a hard life of it....

p.s you will find reinforced polyamide spare wheel recess (boot floor) in flagship Audi's that start at a price tag of €100,000 i.e audi a8..... this debuted on the 2011 model Audi A8

maybe Renault are ahead of their game in this regard.

I remember reading about the Megane plastic wheel well.
It saves a few kilos of weight.
If the manufacturer were trying to save money rather than weight then they just use a steel wheel well pressed from the rolls of steel that they have in the pressing plant. It adds cost and complexity to add a plastic wheel well as it involves an outside supplier and steel on a roll they already have in stock is to all intents and purposes free where as a plastic part is not.
If they didn't make weight savings like this then the car would be as heavy as an opel astra which is almost as heavy as cars in the class above.

fmcg_scribe · 02-11-2014 5:20pm

mgbgt1978 wrote: »

But it's not really a discussion, is it ?
It's just yet another of your rambling threads where you stick up fifty vague links (1/2 of which just might be of interest to a US motorist).....very few of which concern the Irish Motorist.

Neither is it original in the truest sense. It's just some regurgitated Journalists opinion

All your 28 or so Threads start with a link to some article or other which you feel must be of interest to boards users.
Maybe try coming up with an original thought/question instead of just linking to conjecture and irrelevant information.
Then perhaps people could actually discuss your own opinions rather than those of a load of motoring journalists.

This is not a personal attack, I'm simply pointing out that all your threads are simply links to subjects which many (if not most) Irish motorists have absolutely no interest in reading.

This thread started out as a mention of a news piece about Renault and I attempted to put that news into context. I hold no brief for Renault. I have never owned one and probably never will. However, I recognise that it's a brand in which at least some people in Ireland are interested.

It didn't matter to me whether the thread turned into a discussion.

However, Tragedy and you seem to have a different agenda, so this discussion has descended into trolling and probably should be closed.

In relation to sharing links and picking topics for discussion, it's important to broaden the range of topics dicussed in this forum. Arguably, there are too many discussions here about, say, motor tax, motor insurance, and the NCT. Very rarely is there an interesting post about any those topics - it's just more of the same.

Further, the motor industry is a global one and sometimes there are issues, events, and trends happening elsewhere ih the world that might soon be relevant to the cars bought and sold in Ireland.

Often, I don't have a view about the links I post here. Indeed, most of the links I post here are intended to illuminate, elaborate, or support a reply. Many of the posts here ask for advice or assistance and sometimes your own personal experience or knowledge might be sufficient for providing reply. Equally, though, it's often the case that hard data or official guidance needs to provided to support or counter a reply.

In relation to your own tastes and preferences and likes and dislikes, you are entitled your opinion about what I or any members post here.

However, you are not in control of the rules of this forum and you are not the arbiter of what is discussed here.

Therefore, if I or any other members start a discussion or post a reply that you don't like, you are NOT obliged to read it or post a comment, especially if the comment is inflammatory and off-topic.

This reply is not intended to invite a further reply from you. You've had your say and I've had mine.

If you do reply, I'll refer it to a moderator.

fmcg_scribe · 02-11-2014 5:34pm

Tragedy wrote: »

So far I brought up the BMW i8 and the Merc GL as the only examples, you included Ferrari. You have posted at least 20 links that state that European volume car makers do not have a 6-12month waiting list.

Tragic.

Still haven't posted any evidence of franchise dealers talking about a move from one production type to another.

Nor have you explained why a franchise dealer would have any insight on such a move.

Tragic.

I eagerly await your next thread where you again spout nonsense, tell us things you have heard from unspecified people in the know, and bombard anyone who disagrees with you with copious links that you copy/pasted without even reading.

Tragic.

Oh the irony!

Tragic.

You're ranting and raving. You have failed to counter anything I wrote by providing any data to the contrary.

In a previous reply, you appeared to question my integrity. If you do so again, I will have to refer your posts here to a moderator.

ba_barabus · 02-11-2014 6:16pm

Accusations of trolling is the admission you can't argue a point.

To be fair they're right, you haven't argued their points and most of these threads don't give your opinion, they're just links (which I enjoy reading) but have little to interest most normal Irish motorists.

As for the point above I see no reasons pushing lead times out to 6 months would be supported by garages, consumers or producers of cars. It happened for a short while but it's not a good strategy at all for long term growth.

Tragedy · 02-11-2014 6:22pm

You posted claims. It's your job to support those claims, not mine to disprove them.

So far you haven't supported those claims and in fact, have posted copious amounts of evidence that prove that your claims are completely false.

Despite this, you keep posting even more links that are either irrelevant to the topic at hand, or yet again, show your opening statements to be incorrect. Combined with that, you are again (for what, the 4th thread?) referencing various unspecified third parties as supporting proof for your claims. Third parties that you always refuse to name or reference directly, but that you're more than happy to post about to show that you're right and everyone else is wrong.

Therefore you are a spoofer. Both of those have plenty of evidence to support them in this thread and others, and it isn't against the charter or against the boards.ie rules (and I'm more than happy to link the Dispute Resolution thread) to state that a poster is being untruthful when you have direct evidence of such behaviour.

Again,

I have heard some franchise dealers (usually for German brands) talk about

Who are these franchise dealers?
Why would franchise dealers in Ireland know about talk high up in the echelons of BMW AG/Mercedes AG about a planned move from push (which neither use in the first place) to pull production?

many of the European volume car makers that are doing well are quite happy that customers ordering new cars from them have to wait for 6-12 months to take delivery.

What European volume car maker has waiting lists of 6-12months on new cars? Remember, you used broad terms to suggest a large proportion of models with long waiting lists.
Secondly, show manufacturers are happy with the waiting lists.
Thirdly, explain why any business would deliberately want to delay revenue for 6-12months outside of exceptional circumstances?

fmcg_scribe · 02-11-2014 7:12pm

ba_barabus wrote: »

Accusations of trolling is the admission you can't argue a point.

To be fair they're right, you haven't argued their points and most of these threads don't give your opinion, they're just links (which I enjoy reading) but have little to interest most normal Irish motorists.

As for the point above I see no reasons pushing lead times out to 6 months would be supported by garages, consumers or producers of cars. It happened for a short while but it's not a good strategy at all for long term growth.

Eh, I gave three opinions in post #1 of this thread.

I did argue my point and I provided supporting data - any gossip I've heard simply chimes with data that has been published.

In relation to waiting times, of course dealers and buyers would prefer zero or low lead-times for delivering new cars.

At the moment, buyers of new cars in Europe are not helped by the fact that cars sales across Europe are generally flat (UK is an exception), so European car makers that sell cars in China and the US are focusing there, which can influence bigger decisions about LHD/RHD production each year and which regional and national markets to focus on.

Equally, car makers want to sell each unit produced for the maximum price - that's economics. Customization at order time is an obvious way to achieve that. However, the down side of all those options lists favoured by some car makers is that sometimes picking certain options might delay the delivery of your new car even further if there are temporary parts supply problems.

Another way to achieve maximum price is to move into new markets. VRT distorts how people in Ireland regard car prices. Yes, prices of new cars are high but the price at which they arrive at, say, Dublin port is more important because historically new cars arriving in Ireland were among the cheapest in Europe before government taxes were applied. My point here is that quite a few car makers would probably not regard Ireland as rich pickings, so that might choke the supply of new cars from those makers to the Irish market.

Tragedy · 02-11-2014 7:30pm

Ireland does not have high new car prices.

Source: The European Commission

European car sales have not been flat. They were on a downward trajectory for 5-6 years and have been growing month on month for the last 12 months. They have been anything but flat.

Source: European Automobile Manufacturers Association

Extended waiting lists due to options are generally due to how modern car factories are designed and operated when it comes to volume production runs rather than to supply problems (No source).

There are only 2 countries out of the ~50 in Europe with RHD, what does LHD/RHD have to do with sales in Asia and the USA?

Do you have a source for cars in Ireland being among the cheapest in Europe? If you don't, do you at least have an explanation as to why they would be? Do bear in mind Norway's example.

dougie-lampkin · 03-11-2014 1:36am

fmcg_scribe wrote: »

However, Tragedy and you seem to have a different agenda, so this discussion has descended into trolling and probably should be closed.

This reply is not intended to invite a further reply from you. You've had your say and I've had mine.

If you do reply, I'll refer it to a moderator.

fmcg_scribe wrote: »

In a previous reply, you appeared to question my integrity. If you do so again, I will have to refer your posts here to a moderator.

Congratulations on joining the moderator team, fmcg, I must have missed the announcement! :pac:

JohnBoy26 · 03-11-2014 1:44am

ShaunieVW wrote: »

Id rather wait a few months for a decent car. I had a 2010 megane estate for a few days a fortnight ago. What a rubbish car. Less than 100k on the clock and all the interior was worn. They handbrake cover kept coming off in my hand. The 1.5dci is great on fuel but shockingly unrefined. I handled like a boat, might be something to do with the boot floor being PLASTIC!!

I left the experience thinking how they make the cars and worse and cheaper to sell them as Dacias? Ive driven a lot of cars of all different kinds but this is by far the worst yoke I have ever driven. So yeah ld wait a few months so I dont have to drive in a miserable sh*tbox everyday.

My neighbour's 3 year old Clio has badly worn door hinges at 60k kilometers. It's not an abused car either.

colm_mcm · 03-11-2014 7:50am

JohnBoy26 wrote: »

My neighbour's 3 year old Clio has badly worn door hinges at 60k kilometers. It's not an abused car either.

That's all the push/pull

fmcg_scribe · 03-11-2014 12:28pm

Tragedy wrote: »

Ireland does not have high new car prices.

Source: The European Commission

European car sales have not been flat. They were on a downward trajectory for 5-6 years and have been growing month on month for the last 12 months. They have been anything but flat.

Source: European Automobile Manufacturers Association

Extended waiting lists due to options are generally due to how modern car factories are designed and operated when it comes to volume production runs rather than to supply problems (No source).

There are only 2 countries out of the ~50 in Europe with RHD, what does LHD/RHD have to do with sales in Asia and the USA?

Do you have a source for cars in Ireland being among the cheapest in Europe? If you don't, do you at least have an explanation as to why they would be? Do bear in mind Norway's example.

Car prices
Tragedy, in relation to new car prices (pre-tax and post-tax) in Ireland, you found the correct EU comparative data but you didn't interpret it correctly.

From 1993-2011, the European Commission tracked car prices, so there's a large archive:
http://ec.europa.eu/competition/sectors/motor_vehicles/prices/archive.html

Using the 2011 link you mentioned (http://ec.europa.eu/competition/sectors/motor_vehicles/prices/2011_07_full.pdf), the tables starting at page 14 of the PDF give "Price in euro (tax-free), by make" and cover a large sample of the models of sold in the EU.

If you compare the "IE" column to the other columns, it is clear that Ireland is one of the cheapest PRE-TAX in the EU - generally, it's only Cyprus, Greece, the Baltics, and some of the former Iron Curtain countries that are cheaper than Ireland. Obviously, Eurozone and non-Eurozone is important. For example, the UK is cheaper than I expected but I suspect that has to be because of GBP/EUR exchange rate fluctuations.

Historically, going back to the 1980s, IEP/GBP exchange rate differences probably helped keep Irish pre-tax prices lower than the UK especially when the punt was pegged to the Deutsche Mark.

In relation to POST-TAX prices, later tables in the PDF starting from page 36 get into the detail about pre- and post-tax prices for each manufacturer. Looking at the tables in this part of the PDF, it's clear that some countries levy high taxes on certain cars, so sometimes Ireland compares favourably and sometimes it doesn't.

For example, take the Ford Focus 1.6 5 door - see page 80 of the PDF. The Ford Focus is one of the most popular cars on sale in Ireland. Back in 2011, Ireland had the most expensive most expensive post-tax price for that car in the Eurozone - Denmark had the most expensive price but it's outside the Eurozone.

Therefore, in overall terms, Ireland is among the cheapest for pre-tax prices (in Western Europe, at least) but it's often among the most expensive for post-tax prices (in the Eurozone, at least). I accept that there some exceptions, but my original point about pre-tax prices still stands.

There has been some research about all these price differences, for example: http://fmwww.bc.edu/EC-P/wp831.pdf - the conclusion on page 33 is interesting.

Car sales
There's a lot of data to prove that car sales across the EU were generally flat from 2008-2013:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-22950695

I agree that there's some evidence that the market bottomed up during 2013. During some months of 2014, some countries had monthly data that showed slight year on year increases but it's been very up and down for most countries apart from the UK:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-27442441
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-29243178

For example, latest information about France:
http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/11/03/uk-europe-vehicleregistrations-france-idUKKBN0IN0MM20141103

The aggregate sales for 2014 should confirm what's been happening and whether the sales across the EU have truly started rising on a consistent basis. Therefore, I'm sticking with "flat" for now but I acknowledge that there might be a general uptick compare to year ago.

Tragedy · 03-11-2014 12:56pm

You said:

Yes, prices of new cars are high

The link shows that the prices of new cars in Ireland are not high or above average.
Now you're changing the goalposts rather than backing up your original assertion and even worse, cherry picking one extreme case to show that (in your words)

it's often among the most expensive for post-tax prices

That's dishonest.

I never questioned pre-tax prices, I questioned consumer prices. I provided evidence that you were wrong, you moved the goal posts to being about pre-tax prices and cherry picked an example.

The punt was never pegged to the DEM, parity with Sterling was dropped in 1979 due to signing up to the ERM

You also seem to not understand what the word flat means.

Flat means flat, it doesn't mean declining. It certainly doesn't mean increasing. All 4 of your links shows a significant change in car sales (whether up or down) which is the opposite of flat. How many links have you now posted in this thread that show the opposite of what you claim, and show your claims to be false? 20? 30? Yet you keep posting more, as if you hope people will be too overwhelmed to read them and will go away thinking 'that fmcg fella shure does know what he's talking about'.

This might help: http://www.thefreedictionary.com/flat

There has been 12 months of Growth (09/13 - 09/14) according to the ACEA, but you're going to stick with 'flat' because......?

fmcg_scribe · 03-11-2014 3:10pm

Tragedy wrote: »

You said:

The link shows that the prices of new cars in Ireland are not high or above average.
Now you're changing the goalposts rather than backing up your original assertion and even worse, cherry picking one extreme case to show that (in your words)

That's dishonest.

I never questioned pre-tax prices, I questioned consumer prices. I provided evidence that you were wrong, you moved the goal posts to being about pre-tax prices and cherry picked an example.

The punt was never pegged to the DEM, parity with Sterling was dropped in 1979 due to signing up to the ERM

You also seem to not understand what the word flat means.

Flat means flat, it doesn't mean declining. It certainly doesn't mean increasing. All 4 of your links shows a significant change in car sales (whether up or down) which is the opposite of flat. How many links have you now posted in this thread that show the opposite of what you claim, and show your claims to be false? 20? 30? Yet you keep posting more, as if you hope people will be too overwhelmed to read them and will go away thinking 'that fmcg fella shure does know what he's talking about'.

This might help: http://www.thefreedictionary.com/flat

There has been 12 months of Growth (09/13 - 09/14) according to the ACEA, but you're going to stick with 'flat' because......?

Car prices
I didn't change any goalposts.

I said: "Yes, prices of new cars are high but the price at which they arrive at, say, Dublin port is more important because historically new cars arriving in Ireland were among the cheapest in Europe before government taxes were applied."

The PDF that you mentioned supports that. Remember that the point I was making here was the pre-tax price in Ireland compared to the post-tax price, which many people perceive as high.

The Ford Focus example is very relevant to Ireland. Are you saying that Ireland has the cheapest post-tax price for that car in the Euozone?

"DM peg"
That's economics jargon from the past - I'm showing my age, perhaps.

Up to 1979 when Ireland joined the European Monetary System (EMS), the Irish punt had been pegged to Sterling.

Joining the EMS meant that the exchange rate policy for the punt moved from "Pound peg" to a currency basket dominated by the Deutsche Mark, which led to some some economists and journalists saying that punt was effectively pegging the Deutsche Mark hence the phrase "DM peg" - it's just a shorthand, albeit a crude one, perhaps.

"Flat" car sales data across Europe
I think that you're focusing too much on percentage changes, especially month on month percentage changes and year on year changes for individual months.

As with any data, big or small percentage changes on a low base can look significant until you look at the actual figures across time. In this case, the aggregate sales figures across at least 10 years are a better yardstick.

Consider the following data for Ireland (http://www.simi.ie/Statistics/National+Vehicle+Statistics.html):
New Passenger Car Registrations - Year to date (YTD)
September 2014 93,186
December 2013 74,303
December 2012 79,498
December 2011 89,896
December 2010 88,373
December 2009 57,118
December 2008 151,607
December 2007 186,540
December 2006 178,826
December 2005 171,732
December 2004 154,141

OK, there's an uptick for 2014.

However, look at how the figures have moved up and down each year over the last 11 years. The point is that in terms of volumes, sales levels still remain historically low and this is still true throughout most of Europe despite some encouraging data for this year.

That's why "flat" has often been used as shorthand by journalists and other commentators to describe aggregate car sales data across Europe for each of the last five or six years.

Perhaps the graph in this article makes this clearer:
http://www.am-online.com/news/2014/10/17/new-cars-europe-s-recovery-continues---jato/37112/

Tragedy · 03-11-2014 5:23pm

it's often among the most expensive for post-tax prices

You said this. The data doesn't back it up.

Now you're arguing that unless I prove that the Ford Focus isn't expensive in Ireland compared to other EU countries, you are correct.

That would be laughable if it wasn't apparent that you're deadly serious.

The linked pdf has tens of examples of new cars that aren't most expensive in Ireland. It has a very few where a new car is most expensive in Ireland. Despite this, unless I prove that the Ford Focus isn't expensive in Ireland, obviously you are correct and Ireland is often among the most expensive for post-tax prices.

The ERM was not a DM peg. You aren't showing your age, you're just showing your lack of knowledge. The ERM wasn't a pegging system and while the DEM served as the defacto anchor, there was always movement up/down between IEP and DEM.

Indeed, between 1979 and 1993 IEP values depreciated by 34% against the DEM - which would have been impossible if the Punt was pegged against the Deutsche Mark.
I suggest you read Patrick Honohan's 'Farewell to the Irish Pound' essay for a refresher.

I also see you're now trying to redefine what Flat means. If you google 'new+car+sales+europe+flat' you will in fact not find journalists using flat as shorthand for declining. Because journalists aren't idiots and understand that flat means flat. It doesn't mean 'sharply declining over 5 years' and it certaintly doesn't mean 'increased on average 9% per month over the last 12 months'. Which is what you're now trying to argue.

Flat indicates change over time. Any graph will show that change over time in new car sales in Europe hasn't been flat. Even if you use 10 years as a time series, the graph will not be flat.

I eagerly await your next post where you tell us that black actually means white, a Volkswagen is actually Cadillac, all cars have three wheels, the Irish currency was pegged to the price of a bag of taytos and who knows what other nonsense is going through your head.

Harold Finchs Machine · 03-11-2014 5:34pm

Ye wasted your day.

mgbgt1978 · 03-11-2014 6:04pm

Tragedy wrote: »

I eagerly await your next post where you tell us that black actually means white, a Volkswagen is actually Cadillac, all cars have three wheels, the Irish currency was pegged to the price of a bag of taytos and who knows what other nonsense is going through your head.

Oh God, don't go there......the boards Servers only have a certain capacity.

Tragedy · 03-11-2014 6:48pm

mgbgt1978 wrote: »

Oh God, don't go there......the boards Servers only have a certain capacity.

It's good revision for me, I'm going through my lecture notes and checking textbooks from 1st to 3rd year just to make sure that he is talking nonsense when he starts using Business/Economics jargon - so I don't mind!

fmcg_scribe · 04-11-2014 1:15am

Tragedy wrote: »

You said this. The data doesn't back it up.

Now you're arguing that unless I prove that the Ford Focus isn't expensive in Ireland compared to other EU countries, you are correct.

That would be laughable if it wasn't apparent that you're deadly serious.

The linked pdf has tens of examples of new cars that aren't most expensive in Ireland. It has a very few where a new car is most expensive in Ireland. Despite this, unless I prove that the Ford Focus isn't expensive in Ireland, obviously you are correct and Ireland is often among the most expensive for post-tax prices.

The ERM was not a DM peg. You aren't showing your age, you're just showing your lack of knowledge. The ERM wasn't a pegging system and while the DEM served as the defacto anchor, there was always movement up/down between IEP and DEM.

Indeed, between 1979 and 1993 IEP values depreciated by 34% against the DEM - which would have been impossible if the Punt was pegged against the Deutsche Mark.
I suggest you read Patrick Honohan's 'Farewell to the Irish Pound' essay for a refresher.

I also see you're now trying to redefine what Flat means. If you google 'new+car+sales+europe+flat' you will in fact not find journalists using flat as shorthand for declining. Because journalists aren't idiots and understand that flat means flat. It doesn't mean 'sharply declining over 5 years' and it certaintly doesn't mean 'increased on average 9% per month over the last 12 months'. Which is what you're now trying to argue.

Flat indicates change over time. Any graph will show that change over time in new car sales in Europe hasn't been flat. Even if you use 10 years as a time series, the graph will not be flat.

I eagerly await your next post where you tell us that black actually means white, a Volkswagen is actually Cadillac, all cars have three wheels, the Irish currency was pegged to the price of a bag of taytos and who knows what other nonsense is going through your head.

Tragedy - You're tying yourself up in knots.

Car prices
I said that historically Irish pre-tax car prices are among the cheapest in the EU but the post-tax car prices in Ireland are among the expensive in the EU. This still holds true today. This is not new information.

Obviously, there will be some exceptions but it's the averages that count.

The main causes of the high post-tax prices in Ireland are the high VAT percentage applied to new car sales in Ireland and VRT.

In http://www.blackwatermotors.ie/UserFiles/File/Motor_Industry_Final_Report_15_September_2009.pdf, table 3.1 summarizes where Ireland sits (or sat in 2009, at least) with respect to taxes on new car prices:

Average Car Prices and Tax Rates in the Eurozone
Average Price before tax, Average Price including tax, Tax Value, Average Tax as % of Price, Effective Tax Rate
Greece €12,104 €16,212 €4,108 23.7% 33.9%
Italy €13,433 €16,441 €3,008 18.3% 22.4%
Spain €13,665 €16,594 €2,929 17.6% 21.4%
France €13,940 €16,799 €2,859 16.8% 20.5%
Belgium €14,080 €17,086 €3,006 17.5% 21.4%
Germany €14,482 €17,227 €2,745 15.9% 19.0%
Austria €13,867 €17,714 €3,847 21.5% 27.7%
Portugal €13,190 €18,862 €5,672 29.4% 43.0%
Finland €12,255 €18,920 €6,665 35.2% 54.4%
Netherlands €13,488 €19,939 €6,451 31.8% 47.8%
Ireland €13,881 €19,990 €6,109 30.6% 44.0%
Average €13,490 €17,799 €4,309 24.2% 31.9%

If you want to indulge yourself, you can use the 2011 PDF mentioned earlier to search for comparative price data for the top 10 selling cars in Ireland during 2013:
Model , Irish pre- and post-tax price (€)
1) Ford Focus range - 15,566; 24,025,
2) VW Golf range - 12,712; 18,036; Ireland second cheapest in Eurozone pre-tax, Ireland 2nd most expensive in Eurozone post-tax
3) Nissan Qashqai range - 15,548; 22,595;
4) Ford Fiesta range - 10,508; 14,855
5) Skoda Octavia range - 11,187; 15,813
6) Toyota Avensis range - 19,542; 28,840
7) Toyota Auris range - 15,655; 23,100
8) VW Passat range - 17,165; 24,355
9) BMW 5 Series range - 29,753; 42,146
10) Opel Astra range - 16,440; 22,760

I've started you off with the VW Golf - the Ford Focus was already discussed.

Whatever argument you thought you had with me about the taxation of new car prices in Ireland, you have lost it and you need to accept that.

ERM
The ERM was classed as a semi-pegged currency system and the Deutsche Mark was the anchor currency. If you try to argue otherwise, you're heading into serious revisionism.

Use of the word "flat"
You seem to be declaring a war on language, especially the reporting of business and economic news in the media. The word "flat" is commonly used when reporting sales figures, not just car sales - search for "flat sales" in Google.

I used the word "flat" to describe EU car sales because the growth is low, slow, and uneven across each month and each member state. Yes, there are signs of recovery but the average growth in new cars across the EU for the first 9 months of this year was approximately 5.9% but the final growth percentage for the whole 12 months of this year is currently being forecast at around 3%. Again, it's all about averages.

In my view, growth in sales of 5% or less (especially over 12 months) is "flat". Further, the growth this year is seen as very fragile because some EU member states have been running scrappage schemes and some car makers have been offering bigger discounts in some member states.

fmcg_scribe · 04-11-2014 1:21am

Tragedy wrote: »

It's good revision for me, I'm going through my lecture notes and checking textbooks from 1st to 3rd year just to make sure that he is talking nonsense when he starts using Business/Economics jargon - so I don't mind!

How very undergraduate. It's sad when someone needs to refer to student notes while "participating" (I'm using that word very loosely) in an online discussion forum thread about cars.

ba_barabus · 04-11-2014 8:28am

fmcg_scribe wrote: »

How very undergraduate. It's sad when someone needs to refer to student notes while "participating" (I'm using that word very loosely) in an online discussion forum thread about cars.

Its sadder when someone is proved wrong but still wants the final word

Tragedy · 04-11-2014 9:32pm

Replies on this thread have been flat if you view it based on a ten year aggregate.

I've proved this and if you disagree you'll have to show that the Ford Focus wasn't designed on the QE2 using an iMac and unlicensed AutoCAD.

The synergy between the deutschemark and the punt is clear and you're tying yourself in knots if you disagree there weren't 14 clothes pegs on the line between Dublin and Berlin.

Do I have this right?

Renault sales rise on improving demand in Europe

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