GAA an outsiders experience

Tim Robbins

Ok, so I didn't play much GAA growing up. A little bit at school, a little bit in the Gaeltacht and that was it. My background is Rugby / Soccer etc and the occasional Dublin match.

Recently, I got involved with GAA Football. Some feedbacks from an outsider that some of you may find interesting.

The set up for kids is world class. Brilliant GPAs and brilliant volunteers. Great facilities. So good I would recommend any Rugby head to get their kids to play GAA. The training standards, set up, everything is higher in GAA than anything I have seen.

Some clubs try to encourage you to play both Football and Hurling. That's fine. It is the tradition of the GAA. But to an outsider it is weird. It is like turning up for Basketball and then they want you to play Squash. Not saying it is wrong, or anything just unusual if you are an outsider.

While I commend the fitness and skill level standards of GAA, I don't think the reffing standards are anywhere close to what they are in Rugby. That is just a personal opinion. Again, a personal opinion, I would say in Ireland the coaching in GAA is of a higher standard. In Rugby, a lot of top coaches are from NZ, SA and Oz and most of the innovation comes from there or league.

Finally, I think Gaelic Football and Rugby have some extremely similar ideas and patterns.

1. The kick out in Gaelic Football is becoming as important as the set piece in Rugby. If you are getting hammered in this area, things are going to be tough for the match.

2. The blanket defense, is a little bit like the choke tackle in rugby. Blocking a man off completely. The question you have to ask is how many men you commit to it. The same happens with the ruck in rugby. Do you commit 3 / 4 / 5 or just let them have it and fan out.

3. The defensive systems whereby people don't man to man mark but defend in units (1st man does this, 2nd man does this, 3rd man does this etc etc) is very similar to rugby.

4. Using the touchline as a defender and pushing attacker out there is again something similar in rugby.

5. 1 - 2's in Gaelic Football are very similar to loop passes in Rugby.

6. Making tactical decisions like not to give away frees in certain parts of the field (like Donegal did againsts the Dubs) is again similar.

7. Breaking, super quick when you get a free (again Donegal did this 4 times in their own half) is the same as taking a quick penalty in Rugby.

So how about this? I think one innovation that could come into Gaelic Football now will be in attack. In Rugby the idea is you don't make it obvious who you are passing to. You use decoy runners, and attackers run mazey lines. FB's join lines at certain angles and players off loads at the last second. So when a team like Donegal put men behind the ball and you are trying to get through, that is something that attacking teams could think about doing, Instead - they make it very obvious who they are passing to. Making it easier to defend. Or you deliberately try to get players to blanket you, say by running in between defenders and then short pass to someone you know will be a certain position. Just like the All Blacks always do, they know there is always someone behind the runner so they don't even look when they pass.

Anyway, just the views of an outsider.

bruschi

Fair play to you Tim. A good honest account. I'd agree about the refs too. I think its an area where both the players and members need to address, as the abuse refs have to endure is ridiculous, and doesnt help the standards. If the ref could do a game without the fear of abuse or people roaring at him, he'd be more likely to make decisions without the pressure being a factor. Making them paid professionals would also help, but that would open up another can of worms.

The hurling/football thing is odd alright, and the only thing I could compare it to is in Australia a lot of footy clubs would also have netball for women, or else cricket for men intertwined in their clubs. but nothing to the extent of the GAA set up.

with regards to the attacking viewpoint you have, I'd say if you played or get into coaching, you would see this happens already, but may not be as clear to the naked eye. One of the most common basic moves is for the full forward to vacate his space in front of goal, thereby creating space for others to run into. And you would have a lot of dummy runs, and then the player doubling back for him to get the second ball. It wouldnt be in the same vein of rugby where it is a pre called set piece or anything, but similar to soccer where an understanding between a couple of players both on and off the ball creates spaces and scoring opportunities.

GBXI

Very interesting points.

You are right, there are a lot of similarities between the two sports, particularly in recent years with Gaelic football. I think there seems to be an unspoken respect between GAA administrators and the way rugby runs it's game - just an impression I get.

But of all the things you mention, the most important and pertinent is the officiating aspect of both games. Rugby's efforts in this area are absolutely superb, whereas the GAA's efforts are close to non-existent, though I expect that to change soon.

The GAA need to create a culture similar to rugby's where young players are encouraged to take up refereeing. It also needs to be a paid position - nothing huge but a carrot nonetheless. Serious training and assessment of referees and their performances. Gaelic football needs to be cleaned up and that will have to come from the top, like it does in rugby. I think it will happen but not for a number of years yet.

Tim Robbins

bruschi wrote: »

Fair play to you Tim. A good honest account. I'd agree about the refs too. I think its an area where both the players and members need to address, as the abuse refs have to endure is ridiculous, and doesnt help the standards. If the ref could do a game without the fear of abuse or people roaring at him, he'd be more likely to make decisions without the pressure being a factor. Making them paid professionals would also help, but that would open up another can of worms.

The hurling/football thing is odd alright, and the only thing I could compare it to is in Australia a lot of footy clubs would also have netball for women, or else cricket for men intertwined in their clubs. but nothing to the extent of the GAA set up.

with regards to the attacking viewpoint you have, I'd say if you played or get into coaching, you would see this happens already, but may not be as clear to the naked eye. One of the most common basic moves is for the full forward to vacate his space in front of goal, thereby creating space for others to run into. And you would have a lot of dummy runs, and then the player doubling back for him to get the second ball. It wouldnt be in the same vein of rugby where it is a pre called set piece or anything, but similar to soccer where an understanding between a couple of players both on and off the ball creates spaces and scoring opportunities.

I would have thought at the higher levels in GAA there is respect for the ref.
The refs just don't as much and aren't guiding the players along - probably because there is no need to. In Rugby the laws change between a ruck. tackle and open play so it helps for a ref to shout "ruck", whereas there is no need to shout "In the square".

ifah

GBXI wrote: »

But of all the things you mention, the most important and pertinent is the officiating aspect of both games. Rugby's efforts in this area are absolutely superb, whereas the GAA's efforts are close to non-existent, though I expect that to change soon.

The GAA need to create a culture similar to rugby's where young players are encouraged to take up refereeing. It also needs to be a paid position - nothing huge but a carrot nonetheless. Serious training and assessment of referees and their performances. Gaelic football needs to be cleaned up and that will have to come from the top, like it does in rugby. I think it will happen but not for a number of years yet.

Not sure about what part of the country you're in but here in Dublin we have about 8 referees under 16 in our club who are part of the junior referees initiative and officiate at all underage games. We use them for our go-games and challenge blitz's - they might ref 2-3 matches each over a weekend. Each team participating pay them 10 euro each. I must say standard is great and it really adds to the kids enjoyment of the games (my crew are u-7). Perhaps these types of initiatives will pay dividends in the future.

Also - the juvenile boards have just adopted a zero tolerance policy in terms of abuse of these juvenile referees, with sanctions against clubs and mentors highly probable.

GBXI

That's excellent and is exactly what's needed across the board. Is that an initiative by your club only or is it a Leinster/national level initiative? It's something that should be coming from the very top in my opinion.

theoneeyedman

Some interesting pointsIin the OP alright, good to see a new outlook through fresh eyes.
One observation regarding refs though. I'd agree refereeing is a huge challenge, and needs resourcing and improving all around, but comparing it to rugby refereeing is like comparing apples and bananas. For one thing, gaelic moves a lot faster than rugby, and over a much larger area. The pitch is what, 4 times the area of a rugby pitch and much of the action occurs around the ruck/scrum/pile up area. If a rugby ref at club level is able to jog as quick or near enough to a hooker or prop forward he won't be too far from the action, which isn't the case at club gaa games.
The biggest difference is that referees who have sometimes to guess what is happening are questioned in gaelic, but protected by the rules and culture of rugby.

The Lost Sheep

theoneeyedman wrote: »

Some interesting pointsIin the OP alright, good to see a new outlook through fresh eyes.
One observation regarding refs though. I'd agree refereeing is a huge challenge, and needs resourcing and improving all around, but comparing it to rugby refereeing is like comparing apples and bananas. For one thing, gaelic moves a lot faster than rugby, and over a much larger area. The pitch is what, 4 times the area of a rugby pitch and much of the action occurs around the ruck/scrum/pile up area. If a rugby ref at club level is able to jog as quick or near enough to a hooker or prop forward he won't be too far from the action, which isn't the case at club gaa games.
The biggest difference is that referees who have sometimes to guess what is happening are questioned in gaelic, but protected by the rules and culture of rugby.

I think the comparison with refereeing rugby is ok in terms of what the OP said. Yes the amount of laws and how each referee can rule on different strands of game so differently is very different to other sports but what Tim said is right in a lot of places
The biggest difference is the response of players, who are penalised in gaelicm to the officials not referees guessing.
Where did you get idea a GAA pitch is 4 times the area of a rugby pitch.

ifah wrote: »

Not sure about what part of the country you're in but here in Dublin we have about 8 referees under 16 in our club who are part of the junior referees initiative and officiate at all underage games. We use them for our go-games and challenge blitz's - they might ref 2-3 matches each over a weekend. Each team participating pay them 10 euro each. I must say standard is great and it really adds to the kids enjoyment of the games (my crew are u-7). Perhaps these types of initiatives will pay dividends in the future.

Also - the juvenile boards have just adopted a zero tolerance policy in terms of abuse of these juvenile referees, with sanctions against clubs and mentors highly probable.

There should be zero tolerance policy in terms of any abuse of referees and with sanctions against clubs, coaches and parents if theyre involved.

GBXI wrote: »

Very interesting points.

You are right, there are a lot of similarities between the two sports, particularly in recent years with Gaelic football. I think there seems to be an unspoken respect between GAA administrators and the way rugby runs it's game - just an impression I get.

But of all the things you mention, the most important and pertinent is the officiating aspect of both games. Rugby's efforts in this area are absolutely superb, whereas the GAA's efforts are close to non-existent, though I expect that to change soon.

The GAA need to create a culture similar to rugby's where young players are encouraged to take up refereeing. It also needs to be a paid position - nothing huge but a carrot nonetheless. Serious training and assessment of referees and their performances. Gaelic football needs to be cleaned up and that will have to come from the top, like it does in rugby. I think it will happen but not for a number of years yet.

Gaelic does need to be cleaned up but would you do it from the top? Referees aren't paid in rugby but there is a very different culture to refereeing rugby to the other main field sports in Ireland where referees have to be paid.

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Ok, so I didn't play much GAA growing up. A little bit at school, a little bit in the Gaeltacht and that was it. My background is Rugby / Soccer etc and the occasional Dublin match.

Recently, I got involved with GAA Football. Some feedbacks from an outsider that some of you may find interesting.

The set up for kids is world class. Brilliant GPAs and brilliant volunteers. Great facilities. So good I would recommend any Rugby head to get their kids to play GAA. The training standards, set up, everything is higher in GAA than anything I have seen.

Some clubs try to encourage you to play both Football and Hurling. That's fine. It is the tradition of the GAA. But to an outsider it is weird. It is like turning up for Basketball and then they want you to play Squash. Not saying it is wrong, or anything just unusual if you are an outsider.

While I commend the fitness and skill level standards of GAA, I don't think the reffing standards are anywhere close to what they are in Rugby. That is just a personal opinion. Again, a personal opinion, I would say in Ireland the coaching in GAA is of a higher standard. In Rugby, a lot of top coaches are from NZ, SA and Oz and most of the innovation comes from there or league.

Finally, I think Gaelic Football and Rugby have some extremely similar ideas and patterns.

1. The kick out in Gaelic Football is becoming as important as the set piece in Rugby. If you are getting hammered in this area, things are going to be tough for the match.

2. The blanket defense, is a little bit like the choke tackle in rugby. Blocking a man off completely. The question you have to ask is how many men you commit to it. The same happens with the ruck in rugby. Do you commit 3 / 4 / 5 or just let them have it and fan out.

3. The defensive systems whereby people don't man to man mark but defend in units (1st man does this, 2nd man does this, 3rd man does this etc etc) is very similar to rugby.

4. Using the touchline as a defender and pushing attacker out there is again something similar in rugby.

5. 1 - 2's in Gaelic Football are very similar to loop passes in Rugby.

6. Making tactical decisions like not to give away frees in certain parts of the field (like Donegal did againsts the Dubs) is again similar.

7. Breaking, super quick when you get a free (again Donegal did this 4 times in their own half) is the same as taking a quick penalty in Rugby.

So how about this? I think one innovation that could come into Gaelic Football now will be in attack. In Rugby the idea is you don't make it obvious who you are passing to. You use decoy runners, and attackers run mazey lines. FB's join lines at certain angles and players off loads at the last second. So when a team like Donegal put men behind the ball and you are trying to get through, that is something that attacking teams could think about doing, Instead - they make it very obvious who they are passing to. Making it easier to defend. Or you deliberately try to get players to blanket you, say by running in between defenders and then short pass to someone you know will be a certain position. Just like the All Blacks always do, they know there is always someone behind the runner so they don't even look when they pass.

Anyway, just the views of an outsider.

Disagree with a few things Tim but excellent post in the main. You say "So good I would recommend any Rugby head to get their kids to play GAA". You could as easily say the same for all sports as no kid especially below about 14/15 should be limited to playing 1 sport as the kid will become a better player/athlete etc by broadening their sporting knowledge and abilities.
From personal experience in rural Munster clubs I wouldn't say training standards, set up are higher than other sports and would have found other sports(soccer in the big club in the nearby town and the local rugby club) would have had better facilities than most GAA clubs in the main

Tim Robbins wrote: »

I would have thought at the higher levels in GAA there is respect for the ref.
The refs just don't as much and aren't guiding the players along - probably because there is no need to. In Rugby the laws change between a ruck. tackle and open play so it helps for a ref to shout "ruck", whereas there is no need to shout "In the square".

I don't think there is total respect even at the higher levels. If players are used to seeing and possibly doing something at lower levels they'll do it at higher levels. Too often you see players crowd around a referee or are querying decisions..
The referee's abilities are much more impacted by the rules than rugby referee's are impacted by the laws. You make an excellent point about the changes in rugby between ruck, tackle, maul help bring clarity in rugby but things like that don't happen or really need to happen in GAA. A good referee in rugby will be talking to players all through the game but due to how Gaelic and Hurling are set up with players in set positions around the pitch that isn't the case in Gaelic and Hurling so very different approach required and hard to see how to improve it

corny

Glad you're still enjoying it Tim.

I remember your post on the Rugby forum a while back where those heathens attacked our game.;)

ifah

GBXI wrote: »

That's excellent and is exactly what's needed across the board. Is that an initiative by your club only or is it a Leinster/national level initiative? It's something that should be coming from the very top in my opinion.

Our club referees are being trained under this program : http://www.dublingaagamesdevelopment.ie/workshops/refereeing

Some more info here : http://www.leinstergaa.ie/administrator-referee-education/referee-education.646.html

Tim Robbins

theoneeyedman wrote: »

Some interesting pointsIin the OP alright, good to see a new outlook through fresh eyes.
One observation regarding refs though. I'd agree refereeing is a huge challenge, and needs resourcing and improving all around, but comparing it to rugby refereeing is like comparing apples and bananas. For one thing, gaelic moves a lot faster than rugby, and over a much larger area. The pitch is what, 4 times the area of a rugby pitch and much of the action occurs around the ruck/scrum/pile up area. If a rugby ref at club level is able to jog as quick or near enough to a hooker or prop forward he won't be too far from the action, which isn't the case at club gaa games.
The biggest difference is that referees who have sometimes to guess what is happening are questioned in gaelic, but protected by the rules and culture of rugby.

True. Agree. However, one thing that happens a lot in Rugby is a players start pushing the law a bit for example Richie McCaw and O'Driscoll used to do this thing where they could tackle someone and without letting them go get back up on their feet, contest for the ball and get a penalty. It wasn't legal because you are supposed to release the player after the tackle, but nobody really thought about that because it was so difficult to do what they were doing. Then other players started doing it and got reasonably ok at it to the point that it was clarified to all refs that this law must be enforced. This meant assessors started looking our for it and within a short space of time the post tackle area had changed.

Similar things happen where they might have to change the law or add a new one to make things cleaner. For example, the scrum half having to stand 2 M back from the lineout.

So, how is this relevant? Well again it also happens in Gaelic Football where the advantage law and black card have improved the game. However, I would say for Gaelic Football, the steps rule and the tackle need to be clarified and enforced.

Steps: you can only take 4 full steps. When you are shimming or just turning it doesn't count as a full step and in that case it should reffed the same way as if you are standing still.

This would make it easier to tackle someone, so you could then be stricter on the tackle.

Great point about size of pitch and the speed of the game. I think the Touch Judges should be more involved to help here.

Tim Robbins

corny wrote: »

Glad you're still enjoying it Tim.

I remember your post on the Rugby forum a while back where those heathens attacked our game.;)

Some did. Most real Rugby people really like Gaelic Football and vice versa.

Tim Robbins

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

I think the comparison with refereeing rugby is ok in terms of what the OP said. Yes the amount of laws and how each referee can rule on different strands of game so differently is very different to other sports but what Tim said is right in a lot of places
The biggest difference is the response of players, who are penalised in gaelicm to the officials not referees guessing.
Where did you get idea a GAA pitch is 4 times the area of a rugby pitch.
There should be zero tolerance policy in terms of any abuse of referees and with sanctions against clubs, coaches and parents if theyre involved.
Gaelic does need to be cleaned up but would you do it from the top? Referees aren't paid in rugby but there is a very different culture to refereeing rugby to the other main field sports in Ireland where referees have to be paid.
Disagree with a few things Tim but excellent post in the main. You say "So good I would recommend any Rugby head to get their kids to play GAA". You could as easily say the same for all sports as no kid especially below about 14/15 should be limited to playing 1 sport as the kid will become a better player/athlete etc by broadening their sporting knowledge and abilities.
From personal experience in rural Munster clubs I wouldn't say training standards, set up are higher than other sports and would have found other sports(soccer in the big club in the nearby town and the local rugby club) would have had better facilities than most GAA clubs in the main

Interesting. In North Dublin GAA is way higher. You have a bunch of Senior clubs with great set up all the way down to U5''s. That just isn't there for Rugby. Instead, you have about 4 rugby schools where the 1st's would have decent coaching after that it is a lottery and about 6 youth sides where probably 1 / 3 teams have a decent coach.

Tim Robbins

GBXI wrote: »

The GAA need to create a culture similar to rugby's where young players are encouraged to take up refereeing. It also needs to be a paid position - nothing huge but a carrot nonetheless. Serious training and assessment of referees and their performances. Gaelic football needs to be cleaned up and that will have to come from the top, like it does in rugby. I think it will happen but not for a number of years yet.

Rugby refs don't get paid. Unless you are doing AIL which means you are traveling 8 hours at the weekend so deserve your 100 euro.

Clarification of laws and assessment is the way to go. In Rugby a lot of that happens because it is international. Every year Unions around the world push laws, clarify them then there is a decision about them. See this: http://www.irblaws.com/index.php?domain=10&year=all

There were 6 clarifications in 2014. The IFRU have requested 13 clarifications. The last being in 2013 about the kicking tee.

Anyway, I really respect both sports. I would just love if Rugby had the community drive and coaching standards of GAA and would love if GAA had the officiating standards of Rugby.

nice_guy80

I wish that young refereeing programme was being implemented in my county.

Young kids deserve to have younger people refereeing their games.

We'd have maybe 6/7 old referees who seem to do every game. They are nearly full time.

The Lost Sheep

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Some did. Most real Rugby people really like Gaelic Football and vice versa.

Who are "real rugby people"? I don't dislike gaelic but cant really watch many games of it as think it needs an overhaul of rules to make it a better spectacle, better to play

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Interesting. In North Dublin GAA is way higher. You have a bunch of Senior clubs with great set up all the way down to U5''s. That just isn't there for Rugby. Instead, you have about 4 rugby schools where the 1st's would have decent coaching after that it is a lottery and about 6 youth sides where probably 1 / 3 teams have a decent coach.

It isn't there as IRFU have left it to a few schools in areas and tbf you are unfair on the standards of coaching.

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Rugby refs don't get paid. Unless you are doing AIL which means you are traveling 8 hours at the weekend so deserve your 100 euro.

Clarification of laws and assessment is the way to go. In Rugby a lot of that happens because it is international. Every year Unions around the world push laws, clarify them then there is a decision about them. See this: http://www.irblaws.com/index.php?domain=10&year=all

There were 6 clarifications in 2014. The IFRU have requested 13 clarifications. The last being in 2013 about the kicking tee.

Anyway, I really respect both sports. I would just love if Rugby had the community drive and coaching standards of GAA and would love if GAA had the officiating standards of Rugby.

Where do you get idea referees in AIL have about 8 hours travel? Only in a small few cases do you have that unless you are IPAS or have to do an out of province game.
Rugby does have the community drive of GAA in many clubs but its a smaller sporting organisation of that aspect will be quite different to the GAA which is split on a parish basis. Tim, I think you are being quite unfair on coaching standards in the main as well. From my experience rugby coaching standards are miles above GAA standards but then again my home rugby club would be a very progressive rugby club with some of the best coaches around

Tim Robbins

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Who are "real rugby people"? I don't dislike gaelic but cant really watch many games of it as think it needs an overhaul of rules to make it a better spectacle, better to play

It isn't there as IRFU have left it to a few schools in areas and tbf you are unfair on the standards of coaching.

Where do you get idea referees in AIL have about 8 hours travel? Only in a small few cases do you have that unless you are IPAS or have to do an out of province game.
Rugby does have the community drive of GAA in many clubs but its a smaller sporting organisation of that aspect will be quite different to the GAA which is split on a parish basis. Tim, I think you are being quite unfair on coaching standards in the main as well. From my experience rugby coaching standards are miles above GAA standards but then again my home rugby club would be a very progressive rugby club with some of the best coaches around

Fair enough. Some great coaches in both but I have seen my fair share of players / teams that just don't seem to get the basics at all (perhaps we can take the standard of coaching point as a separate thread in the rugby forum).