Cheating In Carity Event

Nozebleed

Hey lads,i need your opinion on this.

Played a team event today,charity event for a good cause. And my team were beaten today by lads who knowingly falsely declared a player and his handicap on their score card. Basically one of the original players couldn,t make it so they drafted in a guy who played off the original guys handicap. Now the handicap and name on the card were not changed prior to the start of the round. And when the result was called out i knew the players all by name so i made it known to a committee member who was present and had also played in the event. That one of the guys who played for the winning team was not called out as part of the team. So the committee member made a few calls and got confirmation that a player who plaed had not been declared and that the handicap was not correct on the card..he decided the best thing to do was to change the information on the card of the winning group after the event.(This didnt change the overall result of the comp). Now i dont know about you guys but i am disgusted. And im not sure what to do from here. He basically acknowledged the fact that cheating had taken place and agreed to take part in that deception. Opinion please.

rooney30

Can you clarify if the replacement player played off the same handicap?
By the letter of the law then yes there has been a rules infringement .
However if the replacement guy played off the same handicap then there had been no advantage gained in a golfing sense, and given that it was a charity event and not a club competition I would be inclined to leave this one go.
If you were witness to a guy moving a ball or declaring a false score for example then this if course is a different matter!

Norfolk Enchants_

Nozebleed wrote: »

Hey lads,i need your opinion on this.

Played a team event today,charity event for a good cause. And my team were beaten today by lads who knowingly falsely declared a player and his handicap on their score card. Basically one of the original players couldn,t make it so they drafted in a guy who played off the original guys handicap. Now the handicap and name on the card were not changed prior to the start of the round. And when the result was called out i knew the players all by name so i made it known to a committee member who was present and had also played in the event. That one of the guys who played for the winning team was not called out as part of the team. So the committee member made a few calls and got confirmation that a player who plaed had not been declared and that the handicap was not correct on the card..he decided the best thing to do was to change the information on the card of the winning group after the event.(This didnt change the overall result of the comp). Now i dont know about you guys but i am disgusted. And im not sure what to do from here. He basically acknowledged the fact that cheating had taken place and agreed to take part in that deception. Opinion please.

If it didn't change the result, then it sounds like sour grapes to me.

Nozebleed

Norfolk Enchants_ wrote: »

If it didn't change the result, then it sounds like sour grapes to me.

Yeh you might be right..but rules of golf i thought would always take precidence.

Nozebleed

rooney30 wrote: »

Can you clarify if the replacement player played off the same handicap?
By the letter of the law then yes there has been a rules infringement .
However if the replacement guy played off the same handicap then there had been no advantage gained in a golfing sense, and given that it was a charity event and not a club competition I would be inclined to leave this one go.
If you were witness to a guy moving a ball or declaring a false score for example then this if course is a different matter!

There was no advantage regarding the handicap..its more a case of not declaring the player on the card that is the issue..i just got confirmation that lads were disqualified from the comp for not taking note of their drives throught the round.

PARlance

Nozebleed wrote: »

Yeh you might be right..but rules of golf i thought would always take precidence.

Was the replacement off the same HC or possibly even higher?
You only mention that it wouldn't have changed the result.

Nozebleed

PARlance wrote: »

Was the replacement off the same HC or possibly even higher?
You only mention that it wouldn't have changed the result.

No he played off a lower handicap. So it didn,t make a difference to strokes received.

rooney30

Nozebleed wrote: »

There was no advantage regarding the handicap..its more a case of not declaring the player on the card that is the issue..i just got confirmation that lads were disqualified from the comp for not taking note of their drives throught the round.

Ha, poetic justice so! What do you mean by taking note of their drives?

Senna

Technically yes they should be disqualified and they should have disqualified themselves, but there was no advantage gained and assume someone pulled out at last minute and it wasn't a strategy to deceive people from the outset.
Rules are rules but bad form from the players to pick up a prize when one of the team members name was wrong.

Nozebleed

rooney30 wrote: »

Ha, poetic justice so! What do you mean by taking note of their drives?

It was actually a different group who were disqualified,i just added that to show that some rules of golf were in play today but not all rules applied for some reason.

Nozebleed

Senna wrote: »

Technically yes they should be disqualified and they should have disqualified themselves, but there was no advantage gained and assume someone pulled out at last minute and it wasn't a strategy to deceive people from the outset.
Rules are rules but bad form from the players to pick up a prize when one of the team members name was wrong.

I agree with you...maybe it is a case of sour grapes on my part. Still the day was in aid of a good cause and thats all that matters.

Rikand

rooney30 wrote: »

Can you clarify if the replacement player played off the same handicap?
By the letter of the law then yes there has been a rules infringement .
However if the replacement guy played off the same handicap then there had been no advantage gained in a golfing sense, and given that it was a charity event and not a club competition I would be inclined to leave this one go.
If you were witness to a guy moving a ball or declaring a false score for example then this if course is a different matter!

So if they originally had a 20 handicapper on the team and replaced him with a 2 handicapper that then played off 20..... that would be okay?

Nozebleed

Rikand wrote: »

So if they originally had a 20 handicapper on the team and replaced him with a 2 handicapper that then played off 20..... that would be okay?

Just for the record,they originally had a 26 handicapper but he couldn,t make it. So he was replaced with a 20 handicapper. He played off 26. After the results came in my team lost. So we queried the result. The lad who played off 26 on the day the had his handicap reduced to 20 and the team score re,calculated..we still finished behind them.

cairny

Rikand wrote: »

So if they originally had a 20 handicapper on the team and replaced him with a 2 handicapper that then played off 20..... that would be okay?

I think you misread his post there to be fair.

PARlance

Rikand wrote: »

So if they originally had a 20 handicapper on the team and replaced him with a 2 handicapper that then played off 20..... that would be okay?

Quite clearly not but I'm glad a bit of common sense prevailed.
A charity comp, a team has a cancellation, they fill it with a guy that plays off a higher HC and probably think to themselves.., this is all a bit of fun for a good cause, playing with people that know us, we'll just fire ahead without making a big fuss over nothing.

OP, all lot of things are still unclear.
Had they(event organisers) gone to the bother of printing out everyone's names on the cards? Did he sign his name as they guy that couldn't attend?
Or was it just the case that a team was registered in advance with players names and this sheet was used to announce the winners? Ie replacement came and signed his own name and signature on the card.

mafc

Nozebleed wrote: »

Just for the record,they originally had a 26 handicapper but he couldn,t make it. So he was replaced with a 20 handicapper. He played off 26. After the results came in my team lost. So we queried the result. The lad who played off 26 on the day the had his handicap reduced to 20 and the team score re,calculated..we still finished behind them.

They should have been disqualified
End of story, blatant cheating

cairny

Nozebleed wrote: »

Just for the record,they originally had a 26 handicapper but he couldn,t make it. So he was replaced with a 20 handicapper. He played off 26. After the results came in my team lost. So we queried the result. The lad who played off 26 on the day the had his handicap reduced to 20 and the team score re,calculated..we still finished behind them.

That's pretty poor alright, charity event or not. Sounds like the organisers aren't golfers. Not much you can do about it. Annoying though.

PARlance

Nozebleed wrote: »

Just for the record,they originally had a 26 handicapper but he couldn,t make it. So he was replaced with a 20 handicapper. He played off 26. After the results came in my team lost. So we queried the result. The lad who played off 26 on the day the had his handicap reduced to 20 and the team score re,calculated..we still finished behind them.

Ah ok, I misread your post.
When you said he played off a lower HC, I thought that he took a lower HC on the day.

That was a bit of a fast one by the winners so. I'd have disqualified them.
They entered a card knowing they were cheating and they weren't to know if it wasn't going to make a difference or not. Very poor form.

Nozebleed

PARlance wrote: »

Quite clearly not but I'm glad a bit of common sense prevailed.
A charity comp, a team has a cancellation, they fill it with a guy that plays off a higher HC and probably think to themselves.., this is all a bit of fun for a good cause, playing with people that know us, we'll just fire ahead without making a big fuss over nothing.

OP, all lot of things are still unclear.
Had they(event organisers) gone to the bother of printing out everyone's names on the cards? Did he sign his name as they guy that couldn't attend?
Or was it just the case that a team was registered in advance with players names and this sheet was used to announce the winners? Ie replacement came and signed his own name and signature on the card.

No players had to fill in their names on the day,cards were not made in advance. The lad in question didnt sign his name as the player who couldnt make it. I believe he just arrived at the last minute and tee,d off. The lads had filled the names on the card leaving his name off. And they played with the original players name using his handicap for the late arrival.

Howjoe1

Nozebleed wrote: »

Just for the record,they originally had a 26 handicapper but he couldn,t make it. So he was replaced with a 20 handicapper. He played off 26. After the results came in my team lost. So we queried the result. The lad who played off 26 on the day the had his handicap reduced to 20 and the team score re,calculated..we still finished behind them.

Disqualification all day long. Hate groups like this.

See similar at all charity events, so much so, I barely play them anymore.

ForeRight

Will somebody think of the kids!!!

Nozebleed

cairny wrote: »

That's pretty poor alright, charity event or not. Sounds like the organisers aren't golfers. Not much you can do about it. Annoying though.

I think the organiser just wanted a hastle free day,when he found out what happened id say he just thought a fook it..its for charity. No,one will really be too bothered about who wins.

PARlance

Nozebleed wrote: »

No players had to fill in their names on the day,cards were not made in advance. The lad in question didnt sign his name as the player who couldnt make it. I believe he just arrived at the last minute and tee,d off. The lads had filled the names on the card leaving his name off. And they played with the original players name using his handicap for the late arrival.

That's blatant cheating.
The fact that it didn't make a difference to the end result is irrelevant imo. They weren't to know that when they handed in the card knowing well that they were getting an advantage.

PARlance

ForeRight wrote: »

Will somebody think of the kids!!!

Did you manage to get out today?

jokser250

Definate disqualification in my opinion , cheating in a charity event

Rikand

so i wasnt so much in the wrong afterall

rooney30

Rikand wrote: »

So if they originally had a 20 handicapper on the team and replaced him with a 2 handicapper that then played off 20..... that would be okay?

It would be ok I suppose as long as the 2 handicapper didn't give himself 18 extra shots😀

Norfolk Enchants_

Yea disqualification is the only course of action for the organisers, as it's clear now that the winning team were chancing their arms playing off an incorrect higher HC, no excuses for playing off incorrect higher HC.

Kevinmarkham

I think it's depressing that an organiser doesn't have the cojones (or the knowledge) to walk over to the team after he learns of the incident and say 'sorry lads, your scorecard was incorrectly signed. We have to disqualify you. Those are the rules.'

You can't argue with the rules. Just because it was a charity event doesn't make it OK. If that's the case then at what point does it become 'not OK' to cheat?

Whether the golfers knew they were cheating or not doesn't change the fact that they cheated... regardless of how it affected their winning score. Plenty of these charity events have very generous prizes so golfers want to win them... and they should be allowed to do that without the fear that they will be beaten by a team that cheats.

This is why people start believing that it's OK to break the rules... because it didn't really matter, did it, it's not a big deal, it wouldn't have changed anything and, sure, won't the missus love the candelabra.

Senna

That's much worse, let me get this straight.
The new player plays with a hcp 6 strokes higher, they put in their card with one player playing wrong hcp. You bring it to organisers and they readjust score with correct hcp (the team didn't declare wrong hcp) and then allow them to pick up the prize.

That's a disgrace, I would bring that to the committee again assuming they all play at your club.

slave1

DQ all day long, end of

razorblunt

Bit of a mad story really, you could forgive them just playing away if the guy turned up at the last minute but then announce the revised HC after 18 has been completed before signing it.

Did this team win though? I find it hard to establish if they just finished ahead of the OP or actually won outright.

Kingswood Rover

Wrong all day long, new guy joins the team, "fair play pal would of been a bit of a chore playing in this with only 3 as one of the lads cried off, now whats your name and handicap and we will get going"

Nozebleed

razorblunt wrote: »

Bit of a mad story really, you could forgive them just playing away if the guy turned up at the last minute but then announce the revised HC after 18 has been completed before signing it.

Did this team win though? I find it hard to establish if they just finished ahead of the OP or actually won outright.[/quote

Yep they won the 1st prize which was valued at €800 roughly.

razorblunt

Nozebleed wrote: »

razorblunt wrote: »

Bit of a mad story really, you could forgive them just playing away if the guy turned up at the last minute but then announce the revised HC after 18 has been completed before signing it.

Did this team win though? I find it hard to establish if they just finished ahead of the OP or actually won outright.[/quote

Yep they won the 1st prize which was valued at €800 roughly.

Cheers, kick up the hole needed definitely.

Dayor Knight

Nozebleed wrote: »

Just for the record,they originally had a 26 handicapper but he couldn,t make it. So he was replaced with a 20 handicapper. He played off 26. After the results came in my team lost. So we queried the result. The lad who played off 26 on the day the had his handicap reduced to 20 and the team score re,calculated..we still finished behind them.

Actually, having seen what the prize was, and thinking about it, it's much worse than bad form... Sounds like downright cheating. No way should have got prize, but that's the problem with charity events.... Up to the organisers how they play the rules...

I.m.o. Bad form that they put in false score, and should have been disqualified for that. But if it's a team event for charity, the organisers can decide the rules.

mike12

Hi,
Did you even have to have a GUI handicap to play?? A lot of Charity events they will take anyone some guys don't even have a society handicap. Don't really know what they were thinking but it just seems lazy/silly did the guy marking the card even know either the guy who was supposed to play or the guy who did.

Dtoffee

Disqualification every time as far as I'm concerned.

Anytime I have played a team event, it was name, club and handicap at registration and on the card before you start. These guys knew what they were doing when they signed off on a 20 handicapper (if he was that?) playing off 26 under a different name. Sounds like a complete con job and the organisers have played along, wonder was there any relationship between the organisers and the team?.

Russman

Dtoffee wrote: »

Disqualification every time as far as I'm concerned.

Anytime I have played a team event, it was name, club and handicap at registration and on the card before you start. These guys knew what they were doing when they signed off on a 20 handicapper (if he was that?) playing off 26 under a different name. Sounds like a complete con job and the organisers have played along, wonder was there any relationship between the organisers and the team?.

Absolutely. I just can't imagine any "genuine" circumstance whereby someone would actually knowingly play under a false name and handicap. Fair enough if the lad stepped in a short notice, but he's got to use his own name and handicap FFS !!

Sean_pop

Nozebleed wrote: »

Hey lads,i need your opinion on this.

Played a team event today,charity event for a good cause. And my team were beaten today by lads who knowingly falsely declared a player and his handicap on their score card. Basically one of the original players couldn,t make it so they drafted in a guy who played off the original guys handicap. Now the handicap and name on the card were not changed prior to the start of the round. And when the result was called out i knew the players all by name so i made it known to a committee member who was present and had also played in the event. That one of the guys who played for the winning team was not called out as part of the team. So the committee member made a few calls and got confirmation that a player who plaed had not been declared and that the handicap was not correct on the card..he decided the best thing to do was to change the information on the card of the winning group after the event.(This didnt change the overall result of the comp). Now i dont know about you guys but i am disgusted. And im not sure what to do from here. He basically acknowledged the fact that cheating had taken place and agreed to take part in that deception. Opinion please.

Should be disqualified as handicap was wrong on the card in my opinion.

A similar thing happened to my dad. He played in society outing and would have won the competition if he put his handicap on the card. He did not and therefore was disqualified.