Requirements for a pistol

Diane Denizen

I have a .22 rifle, what hoops do I have to jump through to get a .22 pistol? I have no convictions, not even a parking ticket. I would be applying to Macroom for a permit can anyone let me know what to expect? I was thinking of a .22 1911 as it is a gun I am familiar with.

Tackleberry.

Hi Diane ..hoops you need to jump tru..you need to join a shooting range one the allows pistol shooting.
The allowable mag capacity is only five rounds, modifying mags is a issue but it's been delt with in the courts and may at some point become the excepted/allowable thing to do to meet legislation.
Other than that I think firearm design and its look can become issues but that is where you could end up in court trying to get a 1911 type firearm.

I myself have bought a 1911 pistol and I'm two years in court trying to get my hands on it to get shooting. But there are other guns that seem to get licenced quicker, there are loads of posts on boards about .22 pistols and lots lads on here that can help you get started in pistol shooting. Best of luck.
I sent you a private message also.

Diane Denizen

Many thanks for the reply. It seems to me that there is no standard response to pistol registrations. My view is that the authorities are paranoid about hand guns! I have a .22 rifle, I'm a law abiding citizen, so if I have a .22 pistol what is the difference? Their reluctance to allow people to own pistols is illogical and irrational.

BattleCorp

If you are serious about getting a pistol, the first thing you should do is join a range that caters for pistols.

Then try out as many pistols as you can to see which ones suit you best.

I've seen loads of lads go for cool looking pistols that shoot sh1te and they are nearly always sorry afterwards. Make sure that the gun you choose is accurate and suits you. I'm not knocking 1911 pistols, they are really fun to shoot but most smallbore pistol comps aren't won by lads using 1911's.

Once you find the gun you want, you apply for the license pretty much the same way you did for your rifle. Having a rifle licence already should work in your favour.

Unfortunately it's a postcode lottery as to what pistol the Super will allow. You might have more success if you chose a pistol from the list in the Commissioners Guidelines.

Best of luck.

Diane Denizen

Thanks for the advice guys, much appreciated!

k31

Hi Diane, I think the lads have it covered as regards the requirements for an application . for an unrestricted .22 pistol . As regards your choice of pistol I tend to agree with Battlecorp. While the .22 1911 clones certainly look good their quality and accuracy can be disappointing. Ruger make a mk3 22/45 which has the same grip angle as a 1911 and is well made and might interest you. Also it is already on the commissioners approved list so you shouldn't have to worry about the " it looks like a military firearm " crap that some Superintendents use to refuse applicants. Best of luck with you application.

Grizzly 45

.

Also it is already on the commissioners approved list so you shouldn't have to worry about the " it looks like a military firearm " crap that some Superintendents use to refuse applicants

.

Dont take that as 100% certainity because it is on the comissioners list
[Which BTW is now so outdated its unbeliveable. Four pistols aren't made anymore,two are technically restricted or prohibited because of their caliber [.22 short] and four others are" badge engineered" but made by the same company.Some of them are virtual classics, or antiques better said on the international scene]

People have been refused sporting pistols here too that had no "military features" whatsoever and have gone to court to prove otherwise.Latest was in Killarney last Friday.Another liscense granted with costs against the Super.
This is all because of AGS ballistics head saying that any pistol COULD have a ten round mag thus making it restricted.:mad::mad:
However,this is all coming to a boiling point and is due in the high court mid to end of next month which should decide once and for all what the story is about the mag capacity.

My 2 cents..Hold off until Dec /Jan and see the lay of the land then,and apply with your Supers objections answerd in law. Where if he gives you guff about military looking pistols,you can tell him/her what the HC decided on those points and to maybe look it up before making up his mind ?

4200fps

I know a guy with a licenced 22 hand pistol and he never was on a shooting range in his life. He was granted it as he has a strange use for it but it was perfect for the job. I know his use for it but I cant disclose that bit

Diane Denizen

Again, thanks for the input. Right now I can't afford the pistol because we are saving for a back up inverter, so likely as not I'll be revisiting this in the New Year when we know the results of legal challenges. I have to say that the attitude of the State to legally held pistols is immature to say the least and the gardai know full well that legally held firearms are not in any way 'a risk', so the whole attitude is to say the least illogical.

shoot to kill

sorry for hijackin but i too am in the same boat and have a notion of a hand gun! can anyone give a ball park figure of getting a hand gun for the first time. like range joining fee, membership by year. .. I haven't decided what to go for yet but from the previous posts I'll probably join a range first.

clivej

shoot to kill wrote: »

sorry for hijackin but i too am in the same boat and have a notion of a hand gun! can anyone give a ball park figure of getting a hand gun for the first time. like range joining fee, membership by year. .. I haven't decided what to go for yet but from the previous posts I'll probably join a range first.

Range fee - €300 + extra for the first year of joining (€100 - €300)
License - €80 (3 years)
A decent target handgun that will group well - €700 (mid price) €2000 (top price)
Holster- €50 - €150
Ammo for the year @ €100/1000

Then on top is travel time and costs.
Competition entry fees @€;10/detail

and then there all the extra bits you'll just have to have :):)



My advice is go to a GOOD range first. One where you can see (and feel) handguns to see them in action shooting competition targets.
You can ALWAYS get good advice on the handguns and people are mostly friendly and only to glad to see a newby wanting to get into this exciting sport.

BattleCorp

You'll have to join a range first, you can't even apply for the pistol without range membership.

As was said already, go to a range and talk to as many lads as possible. You'll find most people who shoot are very helpful to beginners.

It's great craic, just expensive at the start when you are buying the equipment that you need.

Sparks

BattleCorp wrote: »

expensive at the start when you are buying the equipment that you need.

*cough*airpistol*cough*

clivej

Sparks wrote: »

*cough*airpistol*cough*

choke choke ;);)

Mainly for indoors shooting and so limited to ranges with indoor facilities, they are few and far between are they not Sparks. :(
But a good place to start and not much difference in start up costs IMO only the ammo.

Gatling

clivej wrote: »

choke choke ;);)

Mainly for indoors shooting and so limited to ranges with indoor facilities, they are few and far between are they not Sparks. :(
But a good place to start and not much difference in start up costs IMO only the ammo.

Airsoft wise

€ 180 for a decent pistol

€25 for extra mags

€13 for decent bbs 3000 per bag

decent green gas roughly the same as bbs or co2 capsules .

and there are several indoors airsoft target ranges .

Sparks

clivej wrote: »

choke choke ;);)

Oh, relax, you're not bound to them for life
But as a starting place, to learn to shoot properly, they're damn hard to beat.

Mainly for indoors shooting and so limited to ranges with indoor facilities, they are few and far between are they not Sparks. :(

The ISSF ones are, the pony club ones are everywhere, though I don't know if they'll let interested people shoot there. But any pistol range can shot air pistol, it's easier indoors but on a calmish day (which to be fair is most days you can shoot pistol outdoors), it's fine:

But a good place to start and not much difference in start up costs IMO only the ammo.

My air pistol (an IZH-46M, which is, I'll grant you, a tad agricultural, but still holds its own at national level) cost €250 new including P&P and there are far cheaper ones second-hand and from other makes like Daisy (but really the IZH is fine). Ammo costs are about €12 per thousand pellets and that's the absolute top end of things (in tins anyway, if you get the individually wrapped yokes it can go a bit higher but you don't need to do that for quite a while).

Thing is, the sights, how you aim, how you push the trigger, all the fundamental basics are the same between air and smallbore and fullbore pistol. The recoil is about the only thing that changes, and unless you have something like an LP-5 you can't do the rapid fire course of fire with air pistol. But when you're a beginner, you do not want to be doing those things anyway (well, you do, but it's bad for your shooting).

Honestly, it's worth giving it a try (and honestly, why more clubs don't have them as beginner's club pistols I don't know).

Kramer

Sparks wrote: »

how you aim, how you push the trigger

Well, there's your problem right there. You've obviously pointing the gun the wrong way if you're pushing the trigger.

Now, most people who hunt & target shoot pull or squeeze their triggers, but then they usually point their firearms at what they're aiming to shoot!

:D

Sparks

Kramer wrote: »

Well, there's your problem right there. You've obviously pointing the gun the wrong way if you're pushing the trigger.

Nope, if you're pulling, you're doing it wrong.



Pull and you're off to the right. You want to push that trigger straight back.

Unless of course, that you've tied a bit of string to your trigger and to your trigger finger and you've deliberately put your trigger finger behind your trigger. Then you can pull away and the force is always going to be straight back. But otherwise, nope, you just think you're pulling straight back. It's like thinking you're able to look at both the sights and the target - you can't in reality, your eye physically can't do that, but your brain is more than able to fool you into thinking you can. So you ignore intuition, focus on the sights and let the target be a gray blur and you notice your results get better, your groups get smaller, you shoot fewer fliers and your score goes up.

Or, as in this case, you stop thinking "pull the trigger" and start thinking "push the trigger".

Kramer

Now see Sparks, being an engineering type you're patiently over-analyzing this.....
Simplify.......
Pull = towards oneself
Push = away from oneself.

For example, to set a "set trigger", one pushes the trigger forward.
To then discharge said firearm, one pulls the trigger back towards oneself.

Simples .

Now in the case of say a mounted BMG, one pushes the paddles/triggers forward with one's thumbs, while holding/maneuvering/aiming with the hands. Different beast though & I rarely get to shoot mine these days (very hard on my backstops).

Is your Izy like this?

:D

Sorry OP for OT but Sparks did start it .

Sparks

Actually, the engineering side agrees, it's my coach's voice* that's disagreeing (and he's swearing a lot, but that's just his way, take no notice).

To see what I mean, hold your hand like you were firing your pistol, then look down at your hand from above and watch your trigger finger as you - let's just say operate - the trigger. If you're contacting the trigger on the pad just in front of the first joint in the finger and pulling, you'll see the angle of the first joint not really change much or worse, get smaller (from around 180 degrees to around 135 degrees or so, depending on your hand), while the angle of the second join drops from around 135 degrees to 100 degrees or less. Again, the exact angles vary from person to person according to their individual hands, but the crucial bit remains the same - the first joint angle stays the same or gets smaller and the second joint angle is the one that does the most changing. And if you do that when using the pistol, you'll notice your groups and fliers tend to be more off to the right side (or left if you're shooting left-handed).
But if you're contacting the trigger on the pad right behind the nail, almost at the tip of the finger, with the first joint bent to that 135 degree angle, and then you push back, you should see the first joint angle open out and the second joint angle doesn't change. And the force then is far more directly backwards. You do have to adjust your trigger and grip setup, though usually you just need a trigger on a rail so it can be moved forward or backwards and an adjustable break point (so that when you're actually going through the second stage and firing (or the breakpoint on the first stage if you're set up for a single-stage trigger) that that's when your second finger joint angle isn't changing and your first finger joint angle is). The fairly insane number of adjustments you see on ISSF rifle trigger blades aren't all that needed for pistol.

And like everything else in this sport, it takes ages to type an explanation, about four seconds to demonstrate it and then a lifetime to master



*I don't mean "my voice as a coach", I mean the voice of my coach. ( If you'd been coached by Matt, you'd understand what I mean )

Diane Denizen

Air pistols are great, I had several when we lived in Wales, very accurate, but they don't have the 'feel' of a firearm, I can't describe the difference easily. Air pistols are 6 ft/lb a .22 is generally in the range of 120 to 160 ft/lb. Of course the 6ft/lb is a 'legal constraint' air guns in general can match .22 long for power, almost, but other things come into it like bullet/pellet weight etc. When I was in the gun club in the 70s, I got used to .22 so its the calibre I'm comfortable with and it is accurate and powerful enough to get a consistent group, less windage etc.

Steve012

The Walther/Colt 1911. 22 is a great gun, great fun, as accurate as you can shoot, like any gun. The comp guys wouldn't choose it. I have watched youtube videos of well experienced shooters and they got some excellent groups! As I'm sure they would with any pistol, but noteworthy that they achieved such accuracy from the gov model, not even the gold cup!.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WLU1qxHm4II

cw67irl

Steve012 wrote: »

The Walther/Colt 1911. 22 is a great gun, great fun, as accurate as you can shoot, like any gun. The comp guys wouldn't choose it. I have watched youtube videos of well experienced shooters and they got some excellent groups! As I'm sure they would with any pistol, but noteworthy that they achieved such accuracy from the gov model, not even the gold cup!.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WLU1qxHm4II

Very few stations will licence these now due to the appearance being so close to a CF 1911

Grizzly 45

cw67irl wrote: »

Very few stations will licence these now due to the appearance being so close to a CF 1911

That might be changing soon.

Snakezilla

Im mad to get into pistol shooting myself lads. Was looking at a GSG 1911 and it looked and felt great. Was so close to putting a deposit on one many times but Im just put off by the whole license issues like many others. I see Courtlough Shooting Grounds have a new pistol range. I have a membership there that entitles me to use the clay set up and rifle range and now this new pistol range so hopefully thatll do me. Im planning to put a deposit down before Christmas and hopefully things will work out.

patsat

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

That might be changing soon.

Could you expand on this? Thanks

Zxthinger

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

That might be changing soon.

I don't think that will be the case griz!

Grizzly 45

Zxthinger wrote: »

I don't think that will be the case

I'll hold my fire until after the high court cases are heard before I say anything is a given here anymore.
Too many doomsayers and rumour mongers are already putting out their messages of doom and gloom after the setback on this in Ennis yesterday.
The fat lady still has yet to sing on this.

Heckler

What was the setback in Ennis Grizzly ?

Zxthinger

Heckler wrote: »

What was the setback in Ennis Grizzly ?

The district court judge made a judgement!
Ruling in favour of AGS POV that only guns specifically designed such that the only hold five shots of 22 lr is what the legislation was aim at!
So no more guns considered which have been modified to reduce the mag capicity to 5 so as to meet legislation!

Issue will have to be judicially challenged in high court!.
At least cost can be awarded there as far as I know!

another blow against pistol shooting!
But if it challenged in the high court and beaten then it will set a precedent for all district courts! I suppose with the rag taggle licencing standards differing from one district to the next a precedent is what's really needed!
So tbh the eniss judgement could be the silver bullet to put this issue to bed once and for all!

Heckler

Zxthinger wrote: »

The district court judge made a judgement!
Ruling in favour of AGS POV that only guns specifically designed such that the only hold five shots of 22 lr is what the legislation was aim at!
So no more guns considered which have been modified to reduce the mag capicity to 5 so as to meet legislation!

Issue will have to be judicially challenged in high court!.
At least cost can be awarded there as far as I know!

another blow against pistol shooting!
But if it challenged in the high court and beaten then it will set a precedent for all district courts! I suppose with the rag taggle licencing standards differing from one district to the next a precedent is what's really needed!
So tbh the eniss judgement could be the silver bullet to put this issue to bed once and for all!

I'm sorry. i don't mean to be rude but

Ruling in favour of AGS POV that only guns specifically designed such that the only hold five shots of 22 lr is what the legislation was aim at!
So no more guns considered which have been modified to reduce the mag capicity to 5 so as to meet legislation!

IrishTarget

When was this decision made in Ennis??

Zxthinger

It's a district court judgement so I wonder how much weight it holds? Obviously it holds more weight with courts of equal standing.
The same judgement can influence higher courts but they are not bound by it!

and as far as making any modified capacity 22lr pistols illegal, well if they are licenced then IMO you don't have to worry until your renewal date..

So I'm still waiting for the exact wording of the judgement..

This happened in Ennis this week!.

IrishTarget

Thanks for info. Didn't hear that one was coming up.

freddieot

Ennis DC judgement so basically holds weight in Ennis only. Other DCs are still free to make whatever determination they feel appropriate on this issue. Only High Court and supreme Court can effectively determine national 'verdicts \ law'.

BattleCorp

freddieot wrote: »

Ennis DC judgement so basically holds weight in Ennis only. Other DCs are still free to make whatever determination they feel appropriate on this issue. Only High Court and supreme Court can effectively determine national 'verdicts \ law'.

So anybody from the Ennis district is pretty much goosed if they get a refusal for a pistol that has the magazine plugged unless they take a chance in the high court?

Sounds like trouble for the rest of us.

ntipptop

The judgment was against the design of the pistol, , not the mag, he didn't give a judgement on that
He agreed with ags that the said pistol was not "designed" for Olympic style shooting
He went on to mention the modified mag but that was as far as he went

cw67irl

What was the pistol in question?

ntipptop

Gsg 1911

cw67irl

If anyone was there themselves or has reliable reports on it could they pm me the details.

Tackleberry.

This is my pistol case, along with a friend of mine, both for GSG pistols,case was lost for the decision that they are by design not for Olympic use, no issue with mags.

Grizzly 45

And thats already wrong as there is a specific gsg1911 TARGET model available anyway on the market.

cw67irl

Sorry to hear that Tack. Have you a high court date yet?

Tackleberry.

cw67irl wrote: »

Sorry to hear that Tack. Have you a high court date yet?

Waiting on what happens next...the high court test cases will sort our case out and help everyone that has a non Olympic type firearm because that the road we are all going down now.

Grizzly 45

I hear March 2015....Can anyone confirm or deny???

Tackleberry.

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

I hear March 2015....Can anyone confirm or deny???

There hoping that they kick off around then from what I heard. ie March/April.

Varmint Shooter

Tackleberry. wrote: »

This is my pistol case, along with a friend of mine, both for GSG pistols,case was lost for the decision that they are by design not for Olympic use, no issue with mags.

Disappointing outcome for you & your buddy. The system is a disgrace at this stage.

Sparks

Tackleberry. wrote: »

This is my pistol case, along with a friend of mine, both for GSG pistols,case was lost for the decision that they are by design not for Olympic use, no issue with mags.

Gah. This is why I hate this stuff being settled in courtrooms. There are very, very few pistols designed from the ground up for the Olympics and these days it's not economical to do so for beginners pistols (hence the Hammerli xesse being available in both ISSF and IDPA models, two very different applications). But the law doesn't and never has said "designed exclusively for" -- it says "designed for use in connection with" and in early drafts it was clearer when it said "suitable for use in". Not to mention that there are several events not in the Games that are under ISSF or UIPM rules. So that ruling makes no sense to me except in the case where the case had not been made clearly enough to - or understood clearly enough by - the court.

Problem is, court's an adversarial system and it goes according to the best case made on the day, not according to the best analysis possible. Which is why it's the avenue of last resort Sorry your case was one of the ones to go sideways Tackleberry, hope a better outcome is down the road.

mrbrianj

Can any .22 pistol be used to compete in an issf competition that could lead to an olympic quota / ranking?

S&W 41, Browning Challenger etc were designed for competition.

Sparks

mrbrianj wrote: »

Can any .22 pistol be used to compete in an issf competition that could lead to an olympic quota / ranking?

Any one that passes equipment control (which means conforming to the ISSF equipment rules). Some won't be as competitive as others, but that's neither here nor there for the purposes of a beginner starting out in the sport and should be neither here nor there for the purposes of the law. If it meets the ISSF rules, it's suitable for use in an ISSF event and that should be the end of it (and up until the second public FCP meeting, that was the end of it).