Bidding for your own cattle

poor farmer

I was in a mart recently and witnessed a man bidding for his own cattle .
I was wacthing him because i saw him do the same a few months back.
His sons name comes up on the board as owner but he not there.
The father is out along the rail and really pushes them on, even when the are on the market .
He is quite blatant about it. Is this common ??

Deepsouthwest

poor farmer wrote: »

I was in a mart recently and witnessed a man bidding for his own cattle .
I was wacthing him because i saw him do the same a few months back.
His sons name comes up on the board as owner but he not there.
The father is out along the rail and really pushes them on, even when the are on the market .
He is quite blatant about it. Is this common ??

How does he know he won't get stuck with them?

Kovu

Would the auctioneer not ignore his bid? Seen it before in the local mart where the manager called him in and gave him a bit of a fcuking over asking him what he was at.
Only right IMO, it's a form of fraud is it not!

poor farmer

Deepsouthwest wrote: »

How does he know he won't get stuck with them?

Actually I am fairly sure he ended up a couple of them

Kovu wrote: »

Would the auctioneer not ignore his bid? Seen it before in the local mart where the manager called him in and gave him a bit of a fcuking over asking him what he was at.
Only right IMO, it's a form of fraud is it not!

The auctioneer was taking the bids allright.

Mad4simmental

I thought this was very commen. Say I bring a bull to the sale and I want €3kg and he's comeing home if he dosnt make it. Dad bids him up to near that and if sumone wants to buy him he will. No harm done, no one was going to get him any cheaper anyway. To a certain extent of corse not taking the piss.

amacca

Mad4simmental wrote: »

I thought this was very commen. Say I bring a bull to the sale and I want €3kg and he's comeing home if he dosnt make it. Dad bids him up to near that and if sumone wants to buy him he will. No harm done, no one was going to get him any cheaper anyway. To a certain extent of corse not taking the piss.

I wouldn't agree with that and I wouldn't do it…….maybe I should start.

Count Mondego

Kovu wrote: »

Would the auctioneer not ignore his bid? Seen it before in the local mart where the manager called him in and gave him a bit of a fcuking over asking him what he was at.
Only right IMO, it's a form of fraud is it not!

I bet the manager does f#ck all about the dealers around the ring claiming cattle and dividing up the place between them.

Rackstar

Mad4simmental wrote: »

I thought this was very commen. Say I bring a bull to the sale and I want €3kg and he's comeing home if he dosnt make it. Dad bids him up to near that and if sumone wants to buy him he will. No harm done, no one was going to get him any cheaper anyway. To a certain extent of corse not taking the piss.

Does it not cost you then? Do the mart not take a cut from the sale price?

AP2014

I would have a neighbour or two interested in my stock before they go to the mart. On the day they bid them up, if they get stuck with them I give them the difference of last few bids.

They won't bid on them all but would have 2/3 lads in the know. Could bring an animal up by €40. For all my stock it can work on around €500. That's my haulage and mart fees well covered.

sea12

amacca wrote: »

I wouldn't agree with that and I wouldn't do it…….maybe I should start.

Wouldn't agree with it either. Also how do u know if your dad was the last bidder. Do you sell or not. If Ure dad buys him you'll be paying commission on both sides so it will have cost you

Base price

OP do you actually know what financial/emotional ties are between the son and father. Maybe Daddy wants to buy the stock back..due to a fall out/marriage breakdown, etc.
Nothing illegal if Daddy is bidding on cattle - he might actually want to buy them.

Deepsouthwest

Took a particularly unwanted springer to the mart a good few yrs ago, met a dealer that I knew at the time, who said he'd throw a few bids on her for me, which I thought would be great. Anyway springer comes into the ring, 4 or 5 slow bids later the auctioneer turns to me and says "u've got a bid of €900 now, and it's not ur friend either, so I'd take it". Which I did, with a v red face!

Muckit

Not that I'd agree with the practice, but I don't think it is one bit illegal. It's up to you as a buyer to know the price of the cattle and determine how much you are willing to bid. Nor is it illegal, as unsavoury as it may seem, for the auctioneer to bluff by taking a bid from a 'phantom bidder.' It happens at most auctions and is known in the trade as 'taking bids from the wall.'

That's why if you've vetted the cattle you want to buy in the pens before hand, you are better to stay back up near the back away from the ring. That way you can keep an eye on proceedings and see who you are bidding against or if the auctioneer is bluffing. And above all else, know their value to you and don't bid past this!

Mad4simmental

sea12 wrote: »

Wouldn't agree with it either. Also how do u know if your dad was the last bidder. Do you sell or not. If Ure dad buys him you'll be paying commission on both sides so it will have cost you

It's fairly easy. 400kg bull if i want €3.00 a kg sells for €1200 and no less. He and I works out the price while the next animal is in the scales. It's not robing anyone of deceiving anyone the animal comes home if he dosnt make the €3.00kg I want for him.

_Brian

Surely tha mart don't care too much.
They're getting the commission anyway once the hammer falls.

poor farmer

Base price wrote: »

OP do you actually know what financial/emotional ties are between the son and father. Maybe Daddy wants to buy the stock back..due to a fall out/marriage breakdown, etc.
Nothing illegal if Daddy is bidding on cattle - he might actually want to buy them.

Well I know fo a fact that "daddy " brought the cattle to the mart.
As i said i seen him at it before ,so I was keeping a close eye.

J.O. Farmer

Mad4simmental wrote: »

It's fairly easy. 400kg bull if i want €3.00 a kg sells for €1200 and no less. He and I works out the price while the next animal is in the scales. It's not robing anyone of deceiving anyone the animal comes home if he dosnt make the €3.00kg I want for him.

In that case were you not easier to put him on the market when he gets close enough to what you want and get the auctioneer to sell him to the wall if you don't get what you want.

Base price

_Brian wrote: »

Surely tha mart don't care too much.
They're getting the commission anyway once the hammer falls.

I have witnessed local marts go to the wall over the years because they didn't care and allowed dealers to dictate prices and basically take them over which resulted in their demise and eventual closer.
The same dealers still attend marts in other parts of the country.

Mad4simmental

J.O. Farmer wrote: »

In that case were you not easier to put him on the market when he gets close enough to what you want and get the auctioneer to sell him to the wall if you don't get what you want.

Yes that's true but one local mart sells on the market all the time so you don't get that chance. Another will ask you then you can put on the market, once the animal goes on the market dad drops out. It's not sumthing that we do day in day out it might be once a year on a slow day.

Bodacious

I see couple of young lads at it locally .. Good mart manager should pull them aside

If only one good buyer doesn't return the following week to bid on calves as a result of that messing .. It effects everyone and those 2 bucks may not even have cattle in the next week

I just think its wrong 2 lads sitting together .. One goes in sellers box and other goes waving like hell, doesn't even mask or by bidding on any other cattle before or after they go through

lalababa

With the price of cattle these days who'd blame the feckers. Anyway perfectly legal . Bid up to an agreed max and if it's not exceeded then 'no sale'. If ye feck it up then theres a bit of paperwork and mart fees. There is mart fees and transport even with 'no sale' but sure how bad, better than a low ball price. Off to the next mart and see what happens.
The price of cattle is just about cost - as far as I can see with, the sfp as a defacto 'dole ' for farmers . Nothing wrong with that. If it wasn't there they would be even less people living in rural areas. 'tis the way it is for the last 30 yrs., but now of course worse 'cause REPS is gone.:rolleyes:

onyerbikepat

Lads, it goes on in every mart and has being for years. I remember buying a bullock years ago at the mart. I could see who was bidding against me at the time. Took a note of the seller's name and the following week when his name came up again, took a walk over to the sellers box. Who was he, but the brother of the guy that was bidding against me. Auctioneer is friendly enough with the two of them too.

Robson99

Kovu wrote: »

Would the auctioneer not ignore his bid? Seen it before in the local mart where the manager called him in and gave him a bit of a fcuking over asking him what he was at.
Only right IMO, it's a form of fraud is it not!

Its no worse than lads stopping others from bidding because they want '1'. I would do the same. If I got caught with the animal then I obviously wasn't getting enough for her

jay gatsby

I'm a bit surprised that a lot of lads are so accepting of this practice considering the kicking that dealers get on here on a regular basis for messing at the ring.

Regardless of whether it goes on or how prevalent it is, in my opinion its wrong

Panch18

jay gatsby wrote: »

I'm a bit surprised that a lot of lads are so accepting of this practice considering the kicking that dealers get on here on a regular basis for messing at the ring.

Regardless of whether it goes on or how prevalent it is, in my opinion its wrong

Yep plenty of lads with plenty to say about dealers but turns out they are up to plenty of bloody shenanigans themselves.

We buy and sell a lot of cattle in the marts (not dealers) and have done for years and this pisses us off no end cause it costs us bloody money

It's pretty simple - bid on the cattle if you are interested - If you have no intention of buying and are only pushing them then **** off and stop acting the prick

onyerbikepat

I don't think there is any way to stop it. How is the auctioneer to know who is freiendly with who. At the end of the day, cattle have a market value, push them beyond that and you'll end up stuck with them, paying both commisions.
In a way it's the only way to deal with those dealers, particuly export buyers, that divide up the choice weanlings between them beforehand.

on the river

The problem is the marts rely on the dealers for custom and dealers rely on marts for credit.
It's morally wrong to bid for your own cattle.
EVERY mart have different views on this concept ,where some are more tolerable then others.
Personally I have never done such a thing.
I feel my animal should be well able to gain a price desirable without internal interference.

freedominacup

jay gatsby wrote: »

I'm a bit surprised that a lot of lads are so accepting of this practice considering the kicking that dealers get on here on a regular basis for messing at the ring.

Regardless of whether it goes on or how prevalent it is, in my opinion its wrong

As long as dealers are getting the free hand they have I couldn't condemn anyone for doing this. Nothing annoys me more than dealers blocking up exit areas of sales rings dividing up stock as it leaves the ring. We had an issue in a co-op mart a few years ago involving a dealer and were basically given a pfo by the manager. We were told in no uncertain terms where we came in the pecking order and regardless of the merits of our case the decision was going with the dealer. In those circumstances anything legal a farmer does to level the playing field is fine by me. I've posted it before but have never gotten a satisfactory answer so again could someone explain to me, preferably using small words as I'm obviously not getting the concept, what benefit dealers are to our industry? I could understand some sort of broker buying cattle to order but randomers buying cattle in one mart today mixing them with other batches bought that day bringing them to some other yard seperating them again mixing them with other cattle again to go in different batches to some other mart tomorrow for some other randomer to repeat the process to some degree again. When the 60 day test was in one animal thst left this farm moved 13 times on his way to donegal. This showed up because we had an animal showing lesions in the factory and dept followed up alk animals that moved off the farm between the test and the animal showing in the factory.

onyerbikepat

13 movements, Jeez. Well at least he got to see a bit of the country. :rolleyes:

Brass Tag

AP2014 wrote: »

I would have a neighbour or two interested in my stock before they go to the mart. On the day they bid them up, if they get stuck with them I give them the difference of last few bids.

They won't bid on them all but would have 2/3 lads in the know. Could bring an animal up by €40. For all my stock it can work on around €500. That's my haulage and mart fees well covered.

If they are interested in them I presume they want to buy them, subject to getting them for the price they are willing to pay.

I assume they know when to stop bidding.

They end up buying some of your cattle.

Now why do you give them some sort of kick back on cattle they have bought?

I don't understand the logic!

Muckit

There's no logic in madness!

AP2014

Brass Tag wrote: »

If they are interested in them I presume they want to buy them, subject to getting them for the price they are willing to pay.

I assume they know when to stop bidding.

They end up buying some of your cattle.

Now why do you give them some sort of kick back on cattle they have bought?

I don't understand the logic!

Your first line is key, they will bid on most but only want a few. They bring the average of my stock up.

We both would know if they have payed too much for one or two and I would throw them €40 back or whatever.

It is well worth giving them the kickback if they bring 25 animals up by €30/40 a head.

Madness it maybe but it pays me well.

Brass Tag

AP2014 wrote: »

Your first line is key, they will bid on most but only want a few. They bring the average of my stock up.

We both would know if they have payed too much for one or two and I would throw them €40 back or whatever.

It is well worth giving them the kickback if they bring 25 animals up by €30/40 a head.

Madness it maybe but it pays me well.

Good for you that you have customers in your mart blind enough and green enough to be taken for a €30/€40 ride over 25 animals.
I assure you 99.99% of regular buyers, or dealers would have that little stunt flushed out in ten seconds flat. If not they wouldn't be long going bust.

You go to very few marts by your own admission. Yet you can blindside the pro's the only day you are there.

on the river

AP2014 wrote: »

Your first line is key, they will bid on most but only want a few. They bring the average of my stock up.

We both would know if they have payed too much for one or two and I would throw them €40 back or whatever.

It is well worth giving them the kickback if they bring 25 animals up by €30/40 a head.

Madness it maybe but it pays me well.

[EMAIL="Boll@x"]Boll@x[/EMAIL] .

AP2014

Brass Tag wrote: »

Good for you that you have customers in your mart blind enough and green enough to be taken for a €30/€40 ride over 25 animals.
I assure you 99.99% of regular buyers, or dealers would have that little stunt flushed out in ten seconds flat. If not they wouldn't be long going bust.

You go to very few marts by your own admission. Yet you can blindside the pro's the only day you are there.

Ah it wouldn't be on the 25 now. Just if things were slow on a few but it makes a difference. Sure isn't it better than having a few big guys in the ring claiming dabs on a few of mine and giving the other lads the eyes. Then struggling with an auctioneer to try and get a decent price of him?

The same dealer ain't going to be bidding on all 25 either. I find when a bid or two comes on an animal it gives a few other lads the courage to stick on a bid.

Maybe I am wrong and I only go to the mart when I am selling wouldn't know as much as yourself.

I actually give two auld neighbours a lift to the mart the day I am selling. They would winter 10 or so bullocks each and often buy 2/3 of mine at good money. They love the craic and chat and buying an animal they know is quiet and disease free.

And it pays me to give them the day out!

AP2014

on the river wrote: »

[EMAIL="Boll@x"]Boll@x[/EMAIL] .

Not really sure dealers do it all the time to lads. Lads here admit they do it but yet will give out about dealers.

It's fair game in my opinion. Don't buy the animal if you don't want to.

simx

I have thrown a few bids on lads cattle I knew to get them going and I know other lads have done the same for me, have also when stood into the box told the auctioneer what I'd have/like to get for that particular animal and he might take a few off the wall to bring up to that price and if he has a genuine bid sell if not no bother, the way I see it is I'm not going to sell them for nothing so unless someone is willing to pay what I want they're going home

AP2014

simx wrote: »

I have thrown a few bids on lads cattle I knew to get them going and I know other lads have done the same for me, have also when stood into the box told the auctioneer what I'd have/like to get for that particular animal and he might take a few off the wall to bring up to that price and if he has a genuine bid sell if not no bother, the way I see it is I'm not going to sell them for nothing so unless someone is willing to pay what I want they're going home

Spot on, nothing wrong with it.

onyerbikepat

I remember years ago buying cattle with the father. Bidding on cattle and he went, £425. £428 came the next bid, ...father took down his hand. Roar of laughter from all the dealers in the corner. They were abviously pushing them for their mate in the sellers box and now stuck with both commisions.
Funny how you remember things, must be over 20 years ago.

Count Mondego

AP2014 wrote: »

They would winter 10 or so bullocks each and often buy 2/3 of mine at good money. They love the craic and chat and buying an animal they know is quiet and disease free.

And it pays me to give them the day out!

Sounds like you should be selling them from the yard rather than costing you and your mates the fees.

Fair play to you for dropping them back the few quid. People these days have little sense of equity and fairness when it comes to money. The ould luck money is dead and gone too.

AP2014

Count Mondego wrote: »

Sounds like you should be selling them from the yard rather than costing you and your mates the fees.

Fair play to you for dropping them back the few quid. People these days have little sense of equity and fairness when it comes to money. The ould luck money is dead and gone too.

Jaysus these boys are in there 70's they will only trust it through the mart. It's unfortunate alright as I pay the haulage as well.

Outside the money these lads wouldn't get out besides Sunday mass. It could be myself one of the days ya never know.

Feckthis

AP2014 wrote: »

Jaysus these boys are in there 70's they will only trust it through the mart. It's unfortunate alright as I pay the haulage as well.

Outside the money these lads wouldn't get out besides Sunday mass. It could be myself one of the days ya never know.

Fair play to you for helping them out! Maybe try to set them up with Agfood next year. Ye never know they might enjoy the new technology.

AP2014

Feckthis wrote: »

Fair play to you for helping them out! Maybe try to set them up with Agfood next year. Ye never know they might enjoy the new technology.

I was going to do it but just so they wouldn't have to pay Teagasc €200 to submit their SFP. I classify teagasc as a quango only kept in business by things like this.