A 5 x 5 routine and in particular, Dan John's 5 x 5?

Danye

If your doing a 5 x 5 routine do you do 5 x 5 at your 85% 1RM or would you do two heavish warm up sets and then 3 "working" sets at 85% or would 85% be too much in a 5 x 5 routine?


The 5 X 5 routine I'm thinking of doing is one Dan John recommends. It's

• Power Clean 5 x 5
• Military Press 5 x 5
• Front Squat 5 x 5
• Bench Press 5 x 5
• DL 5 X 5

Is that too much volume to even consider going 85%?

The reason why I ask because in Dan John's book, when explaining this routine he says..

"I have my athletes simply add weight each set, so that they finish the fifth set as heavy as they can go. With young male and female athletes at any level, you might find that they can lift within ten pounds of their max single for five reps."

The bit where he says add weight each set so that you finish the fifth set as heavy as you go has me confused.

Can anybody explain what to do here? It's probably glaringly obvious but it's Friday afternoon, I've had a tough demanding week, I'm exhausted and I cant grasp it! :P

Cheers lads.

Alf Veedersane

This should explain it. It's in 'Never Let Go' but Dave Draper put it up on his site.

It doesn't really give a yes/no to what you asked but it does point towards the 5x5 at 85%.

Danye

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

This should explain it. It's in 'Never Let Go' but Dave Draper put it up on his site.

It doesn't really give a yes/no to what you asked but it does point towards the 5x5 at 85%.

Yeah that's were I got the routine. I love Dan John for his simplistic way of explaining things and his view on training but I just don't understand what he means with this?

"Every set add weight??"

So do I start with 85 % for the first set and keep adding weight? Would that not leave me gassed?

I was thinking of doing 2 heavish warm up sets and 3 working sets of 85%. When I complete all 3 sets I would then add weight for the next workout. What would you think of that?

Also what would your view be on the sheer volume of the routine?

deadlybuzzman

If you like the simplicity but have reservations about so many max sets then this would be an option
http://squatbot.net/
the sets are ramped and it's a very effective programme, it was for me anyway although it's quite rigid and inflexible

Mellor

Forget about percentages. Your potential max will be increasing all the time so it's not worth thinking about.

To answer your question, it depends.
Starting out, especially if it's at 20kg, you'd manage 5 sets at your work weight, and increase next workout. At some point, you might want to change to warm up sets and 3 work sets.
Other programs (like squatbot/Madcow above ) involve working up to a single max 5 rep set.

Hanley

I think the idea is to end up AT 85% of your 1RM for 5 reps (...a 5RM usually correlates pretty well to 85% of 1RM in trained lifters)

It's almost impossibly unlikely that you'll complete multiple sets at 85% in the first few weeks.

Try this instead:

Week 1: 70% 2x5, 1x5+
Week 2: 75% 2x5, 1x5+
Week 3: 80% 2x5, 1x5+
Week 4: 75% 2x5, 1x5+
Week 5: 80% 2x5, 1x5+
Week 6: 85% 2x5, 1x5+
Week 7: 77.5% 2x5, 1x5+
Week 8: 82.5% 2x5, 1x5+
Week 9: 87.5% 2x5, 1x5+

"5+" is go all out on your last set, but stop one rep short of failure

So every single week you get to work to maximum capacity in some regard, and by the end of the 9 weeks you should be hitting 87.5% of your 1RM for 6-10 reps.

Which suggests a 5-17% increase in strength levels.

DM-BM

Are you saying to squat only once a week Hanley?

If so why?

Hanley

DM-BM wrote: »

Are you saying to squat only once a week Hanley?

If so why?

No. I'm saying it's one of seven ways to squat in a week.

And if I was going to squat once a week and wanted to follow something approaching a 5x5 protocol, that's how I'd do it.

There are no absolutes.

dor843088

Hanley wrote: »

Week 1: 70% 2x5, 1x5+
Week 2: 75% 2x5, 1x5+
Week 3: 80% 2x5, 1x5+
Week 4: 75% 2x5, 1x5+
Week 5: 80% 2x5, 1x5+
Week 6: 85% 2x5, 1x5+
Week 7: 77.5% 2x5, 1x5+
Week 8: 82.5% 2x5, 1x5+
Week 9: 87.5% 2x5, 1x5+

I thought you didnt like 531 hanley ?:P

Hanley

dor843088 wrote: »

I thought you didnt like 531 hanley ?:P

2 things;

1) That's not even remotely similar to 5/3/1. Wave loading and top sets were around well before Jim Wendler wrote a book about them. Ask him - he'll confirm it.

2) I've commented elsewhere that I think 5/3/1 could be a good option if someone followed a high volume approach (3 top sets instead of 1 on any given day). I've used a 5/3/1 template in RevFit and modified it with slighty increased %s and more volume and people have seen crazy good results

dor843088

Hanley wrote: »

2 things;

1) That's not even remotely similar to 5/3/1. Wave loading and top sets were around well before Jim Wendler wrote a book about them. Ask him - he'll confirm it.

2) I've commented elsewhere that I think 5/3/1 could be a good option if someone followed a high volume approach (3 top sets instead of 1 on any given day). I've used a 5/3/1 template in RevFit and modified it with slighty increased %s and more volume and people have seen crazy good results

Just windin you up hanley

kevpants

Jesus Christ you can make anything complicated if you over-think it.

The key to starting any new program is to leave room for improvement. Each week or session that goes by is basically you building up momentum to smash through your current PR.

So for squats I always start off with 5 sets of 5 reps with a weight that is easy. At no stage do I calculate a % or worry if it was too easy because next week I add 5kg anyway and if that feels too easy don't worry there's another 5kg around the corner. Eventually I get to a point where it's really f'ing hard. Regardless of whether it takes 3 weeks or 4 weeks to get to a point where I'm sucking in air between sets is irrelevant.

Then I get to a point where I can't do 5x5. Then I might change approach and lower the reps over more sets with more weight or I might drop back and repeat the 5x5 with slightly more weight than I started this cycle with.

At that point I'll realise I'm a fair bit stronger than I was at the start of the cycle, I still love training and that all matter is merely energy condensed to a slow vibration, that we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively, there is no such thing as death, life is only a dream, and we are the imagination of ourselves.

Hanley

kevpants wrote: »

Jesus Christ you can make anything complicated if you over-think it.

The key to starting any new program is to leave room for improvement. Each week or session that goes by is basically you building up momentum to smash through your current PR.

So for squats I always start off with 5 sets of 5 reps with a weight that is easy. At no stage do I calculate a % or worry if it was too easy because next week I add 5kg anyway and if that feels too easy don't worry there's another 5kg around the corner. Eventually I get to a point where it's really f'ing hard. Regardless of whether it takes 3 weeks or 4 weeks to get to a point where I'm sucking in air between sets is irrelevant.

Then I get to a point where I can't do 5x5. Then I might change approach and lower the reps over more sets with more weight or I might drop back and repeat the 5x5 with slightly more weight than I started this cycle with.

At that point I'll realise I'm a fair bit stronger than I was at the start of the cycle, I still love training and that all matter is merely energy condensed to a slow vibration, that we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively, there is no such thing as death, life is only a dream, and we are the imagination of ourselves.

shut up with your sense.

it's alright for you. you've loads of time to train.