Writing fiction: sex with underage person ... say 18 with 16 ? Illegal ?

Piliger

Hi all,

On a writing forum recently someone said that we have laws that forbid describing sex with an under age person ... say 18 with 16 or 21 with a 16 or 15yo .. as child pornography.

Is this true ? Any idea how to find the statute on this ?

Ken.

Have a look here, Especially at the second last bit about child trafficing and pornography act 1998

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/justice/criminal_law/criminal_offences/law_on_sex_offences_in_ireland.html

Piliger

ken wrote: »

Have a look here, Especially at the second last bit about child trafficing and pornography act 1998

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/justice/criminal_law/criminal_offences/law_on_sex_offences_in_ireland.html

I don't see anything there on the topic. It mentions child pornography that is all....

rab!dmonkey

A 'child', for the purposes of the Child Trafficking and Pornography Act, 1998, is someone under the age of 17. Written material appears to be classified as a 'visual representation'. Hence written material relating to under-17s engaging in or witnessing 'explicit sexual activity' is considered child pornography.

Mongfinder General

Muck bird!

Cookie_Monster

so how does Game of Thrones, for example, not have any issues. Many of the characters are under 18, but in the analogous historical time frame its set in you weren't considered at child after 13... plenty of sexual encounters and extreme violence against what we consider children written in that.

Piliger

rab!dmonkey wrote: »

A 'child', for the purposes of the Child Trafficking and Pornography Act, 1998, is someone under the age of 17. Written material appears to be classified as a 'visual representation'. Hence written material relating to under-17s engaging in or witnessing 'explicit sexual activity' is considered child pornography.

I find that astonishing and even more astonishing that writers and the arts in general have stayed quiet on this.
How can anyone write stories about teens under 17 and their lives without including sex, considering the majority of all teens have sex before they are 17. I am pretty shocked by this.

Peregrinus

Piliger wrote: »

I find that astonishing and even more astonishing that writers and the arts in general have stayed quiet on this.
How can anyone write stories about teens under 17 and their lives without including sex, considering the majority of all teens have sex before they are 17.

Actually, no they don't. According to this study, average age at first sexual intercourse in Ireland is 17 for men, 18 for women. (This is based on a survey population of 18-25 year olds, so we're not looking at what used to happen 35 years ago.) 17% of girls and 28% of boys report having sex below 17 (the legal age of consent). So underage sex is common, but far from the experience of the majority.

As to why "writers and the arts in general" have stayed silent about this, it's becauase it doesn't apply in the blanket way that you might think. Vladimir Nabokov's Lolita can be bought in any bookshop; it famously deals with underage sex. And in fact there are plenty of novels, magazines, short stories, films, etc which deal with this topic that are freely available. The observable reality is that writers and artists are not constrained by the legislation.

The reason is that there is an exception in the legislation. If a book, film or video is submitted to the Censorship Board (yes, it still exists) or the Film Censor and is not banned, then it's not child pornography, no matter how much underage sex it contains. So if you're producing fiction that deals with underage sex, send it to the Censorship of Publications Board. Since there are currently no books at all banned on the "indecent or obscene" ground, the chances that they will ban yours are not high. And then you're in the clear.

Pro Hoc Vice

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

so how does Game of Thrones, for example, not have any issues. Many of the characters are under 18, but in the analogous historical time frame its set in you weren't considered at child after 13... plenty of sexual encounters and extreme violence against what we consider children written in that.

Would have been an idea to read the Act, the answer to your question is in the interpretation section.

“child pornography” means—

(a) any visual representation—

(i) that shows or, in the case of a document, relates to a person who is or is depicted as being a child and who is engaged in or is depicted as being engaged in explicit sexual activity,

(ii) that shows or, in the case of a document, relates to a person who is or is depicted as being a child and who is or is depicted as witnessing any such activity by any person or persons, or

(iii) whose dominant characteristic is the depiction, for a sexual purpose, of the genital or anal region of a child,

(b) any audio representation of a person who is or is represented as being a child and who is engaged in or is represented as being engaged in explicit sexual activity,

(c) any visual or audio representation that advocates, encourages or counsels any sexual activity with children which is an offence under any enactment, or

(d) any visual representation or description of, or information relating to, a child that indicates or implies that the child is available to be used for the purpose of sexual exploitation within the meaning of section 3 ,

irrespective of how or through what medium the representation, description or information has been produced, transmitted or conveyed and, without prejudice to the generality of the foregoing, includes any representation, description or information produced by or from computer-graphics or by any other electronic or mechanical means but does not include—

(I) any book or periodical publication which has been examined by the Censorship of Publications Board and in respect of which a prohibition order under the Censorship of Publications Acts, 1929 to 1967, is not for the time being in force,

(II) any film in respect of which a general certificate or a limited certificate under the Censorship of Films Acts, 1923 to 1992, is in force, or

(III) any video work in respect of which a supply certificate under the Video Recordings Acts, 1989 and 1992, is in force;

Cookie_Monster

so that could simply apply to any publication then once you pressure the 'censorship board' into it? why do we even still have a censorship board?, very draconian altogether

Peregrinus

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

so that could simply apply to any publication then once you pressure the 'censorship board' into it?

Other way around. A book featuring a child engaging in explicit sexual activity is child pornography unless it has been submitted to the Censorship Board and not banned by them.

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

why do we even still have a censorship board?, very draconian altogether

Not that draconian given, as already pointed out, that there are precisely zero books banned for obscenity. We have a censorship board because, if we didn't, then Lolita and simlar works would be child pornography.

Piliger

Pro Hoc Vice wrote: »

Would have been an idea to read the Act, the answer to your question is in the interpretation section. [/B]

Your answer is totally unhelpful. What basically you are saying is that I should not ask the question because if a writer approaches the censorship board they can apply for a certificate. Are you serious ?

Piliger

Peregrinus wrote: »

Actually, no they don't. According to this study, average age at first sexual intercourse in Ireland is 17 for men, 18 for women.

Your link is broken. And you are conveniently limiting your claim to sexual intercourse, which is a rather narrow and selective view of sex. I believe my original assertion is more accurate.

Pro Hoc Vice

Piliger wrote: »

Your answer is totally unhelpful. What basically you are saying is that I should not ask the question because if a writer approaches the censorship board they can apply for a certificate. Are you serious ?

No that is not what I said, I responded to a statement that for example game of thrones would be child porn, I pointed out that no that is not the case as such a book would under the act be exempted. So I would have thought my post was most helpful as it clearly answered the point raised.

Piliger

Pro Hoc Vice wrote: »

No that is not what I said, I responded to a statement that for example game of thrones would be child porn, I pointed out that no that is not the case as such a book would under the act be exempted. So I would have thought my post was most helpful as it clearly answered the point raised.

I was wrong - I didn't pay enough attention to what you were replying to. Sorry'bout that.

Peregrinus

Piliger wrote: »

Your link is broken.

Sorry about that. Worked for me yesterday, but is broken today.

Piliger wrote: »

And you are conveniently limiting your claim to sexual intercourse, which is a rather narrow and selective view of sex.

I'm not "conveniently" limiting my claim in that way; I understood, as I think most people would, your reference to teenagers "having sex" as a reference to sexual intercourse, and not to other forms of sexual expression such as flirting, kissing, masturbation, sexting, etc. Most people who engage in these behaviours do not consider that they are "having sex".

Piliger wrote: »

I believe my original assertion is more accurate.

Any evidence of that, apart from your belief?

Piliger

Peregrinus wrote: »

Most people who engage in these behaviours do not consider that they are "having sex".

I remember Mr Clinton saying that ...

Any evidence of that, apart from your belief?

There's really no answer to that. I give up.

the world wonders

This case would appear to answer the question conclusively:

Jury convict man who wrote of fantasy of raping RTE staff and three-year-old boy

A jury has convicted a man of producing child pornography as a result of online conversations in which he discussed raping and torturing children.

Piliger

the world wonders wrote: »

This case would appear to answer the question conclusively:

Wow ... shocking. I am stunned that the writing community here has been so silent.