Dockland's Line Beside Canal History?

ClovenHoof

Was only rebuilt about 8 years back to let Maynooth trains into Docklands and according to this it is to become a cycle path?


http://www.nationaltransport.ie/consultations/public-consultation-on-swiftway-bus-rapid-transit-swordsairport-to-city-centre/

http://www.nationaltransport.ie/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/BRT-0150_225244-10_P1-66.pdf

cython

The current location of the Docklands Station was only ever meant as a temporary one, and I believe it should technically be removed in 2016, but that was on the basis of DART Underground/Interconnector works proceeding, the new station sitting on the envisioned Howth-Heuston line (and thus disconnected from the Maynooth line, which would instead run south to Bray and onwards), etc. so an extension will probably be sought on that. However if the station was temporary, the intended line use could be also.

So while I would not be completely surprised to hear that is a long-term plan of the NTA, I don't think it will happen any time soon. However plans have changed so much around the entirety of commuter rail in Dublin (and in particular the Western Commuter line - Interconnector, Navan extension, etc.) in the last few years that this could probably as easily be operating on an old and incorrect understanding. Or maybe someone simply coloured in the wrong side of the canal, since their leaflet on the subject shows the train routes all still operating, including the Phoenix Park tunnel: http://www.nationaltransport.ie/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/Swiftway_BRT_News_Letter_Eng_for_Web.pdf and there is space for a cycle track on the opposite side of the canal in at least some places: https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/Drumcondra,+Co.+Dublin,+Ireland/@53.3601925,-6.253603,3a,75y,276.46h,89.58t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sPXv0qYRVZe6qIqLt34dHTw!2e0!4m2!3m1!1s0x48670e7762b4c13b:0x2600c7a819b93021?hl=en

Really with all those options, I think you'd need to contact the NTA to know what exactly they're planning!

ClovenHoof

Thanks. So as usual transport planners in this country have no idea what transport infrastructure already exists. Phoenix Park Tunnel deja vu...

Land of the Muppets.

LXFlyer

None of those documents indicate anything of the sort - they quite clearly have the word "railway" where the line is.

They've just used the wrong colour - it is still a railway and there are no plans to change it.

cython

lxflyer wrote: »

None of those documents indicate anything of the sort - they quite clearly have the word "railway" where the line is.

They've just used the wrong colour - it is still a railway and there are no plans to change it.

To be fair, given that they didn't put any colour on the other railway line (through Drumcondra Station) it could just as easily be interpreted that the failure to remove the name was a mistake (or deliberately left as a reference point), since the "correct" colour for a railway appears to be none/white. If the railway line is to remain as is, my money is on the colour being in the wrong place (wrong side of the canal), as opposed to the wrong colour being added where no colour is apparently required, for what it's worth.

LXFlyer

cython wrote: »

To be fair, given that they didn't put any colour on the other railway line (through Drumcondra Station) it could just as easily be interpreted that the failure to remove the name was a mistake (or deliberately left as a reference point), since the "correct" colour for a railway appears to be none/white. If the railway line is to remain as is, my money is on the colour being in the wrong place (wrong side of the canal), as opposed to the wrong colour being added where no colour is apparently required, for what it's worth.

There has been no suggestion about converting that railway to a cycle lane.
It is a mistake on the map, that's all.

SeanW

They could be planning to bury the line and put a cycle track over it, similar to how Dun Laoghaire developed "The Metals" over the DART line south of the station.

LXFlyer

There are plans for a cycle track along the canal, but they don't involve closing the railway line, and perhaps that's what they meant.

ClovenHoof

lxflyer wrote: »

There are plans for a cycle track along the canal, but they don't involve closing the railway line, and perhaps that's what they meant.

Oh come on now! You faith in public transport planning and integrity in this country is getting embarrassing.

Clearly someone at CIE told these people that the Canal Lower Level line was due for demolition.

You know it. I know it and we all know it.

ClovenHoof

SeanW wrote: »

They could be planning to bury the line and put a cycle track over it, similar to how Dun Laoghaire developed "The Metals" over the DART line south of the station.

That would be an incredibly expensive option, but lets hope so. I really think the line looks doomed based on some bean counter spook at some Department of Irrelevance going with the 'economic' option. or tarmac over the existing rail line and CIE doing everything to help them.

SeanW

I wouldn't put it past them but this line isn't suitable for that: it's in a deep cutting, you could tarmac it but it would take a pretty advanced off-road biker to access/leave it ...

Of course, I wouldn't put it past them to simply fill it in either :mad:

ClovenHoof

SeanW wrote: »

I wouldn't put it past them but this line isn't suitable for that: it's in a deep cutting, you could tarmac it but it would take a pretty advanced off-road biker to access/leave it ...

Of course, I wouldn't put it past them to simply fill it in either :mad:

it is straight as a rule for a couple of miles, and with tarmac would make a super bike path from Liffey Jct Luas to the Financial Services Centre once paved and filled with AIB ad BOI advertising boards. Inclined access ramps in between at certain locations is no issue. It is only a deep cutting beside Mountjoy.

I can see it now. The Dr Lynch Cycleway!

TheBandicoot

A better development of the 'low' line in the long term would be to add a couple of stations(I'm aware this is probably a major engineering challenge) and run a DART service on it. Not sure how possible it is, but if the connection to Connolly could be improved I could see the future Bray-Maynooth DART line using it as an alternative route- trains serving the high and low level lines alternately. Or if the eastern end was connected to the tunnel portal you could have a U-shaped service Hazelhatch-Maynooth through the tunnel.

Losty Dublin

ClovenHoof wrote: »

Thanks. So as usual transport planners in this country have no idea what transport infrastructure already exists. Phoenix Park Tunnel deja vu...

Land of the Muppets.

Quell surprise.

Back in the early 90's, Dublin city councillors actually voted to build a Dublin Port truck way along this line. They were utterly unaware that it was a working railway line and one ex Lord Mark reputedly refused to believe a city planner that there were several train movements a day on it!

Needless to say, CIE were unaware of it either until the next days Evening Press carried a report on the plans.

end of the road

yeah. this country is really a joke isn't it

ClovenHoof

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Quell surprise.

Back in the early 90's, Dublin city councillors actually voted to build a Dublin Port truck way along this line. They were utterly unaware that it was a working railway line and one ex Lord Mark reputedly refused to believe a city planner that there were several train movements a day on it!

Needless to say, CIE were unaware of it either until the next days Evening Press carried a report on the plans.

I recall that well. They even wanted to drain the canal!

There was also an interesting plan at that time to build a new yard out at the M50 with a dedicated freight line as an alternative to the port tunnel. Working similar to the Simplone Tunnel with trucks driving onto high frequency trains and being hauled out somewhere past Ashtown using powerful push-pull locos at each end. I thought it was an excellent idea at the time to be honest. Lowering the line under the bridges for clearance would have been no problem at all. In the end the Port Tunnel got the go ahead.

Regarding the Docklands station, it was to be made permanent in exchange for the Broadstone landgrab by the RPA.

But I don't agree with the scaremongering on this thread. I wouldn't look at a mark on one map as proof that a line is to be closed. Going by this forum you'd think we'll be ripping up all of the railways in the next few years.

ClovenHoof

Karsini wrote: »

Going by this forum you'd think we'll be ripping up all of the railways in the next few years.

You are new to Irish railway history right?

ClovenHoof

ClovenHoof wrote: »

You are new to Irish railway history right?

That was 50 years ago.

Losty Dublin

ClovenHoof wrote: »

I recall that well. They even wanted to drain the canal!

There was also an interesting plan at that time to build a new yard out at the M50 with a dedicated freight line as an alternative to the port tunnel. Working similar to the Simplone Tunnel with trucks driving onto high frequency trains and being hauled out somewhere past Ashtown using powerful push-pull locos at each end. I thought it was an excellent idea at the time to be honest. Lowering the line under the bridges for clearance would have been no problem at all. In the end the Port Tunnel got the go ahead.

The plan was to shift as much road going cargo from a site in the Neilstown/Adamstown are into the port itself. It was to be a combination of short liners for trucks to drop off, remarshalled Irish Rail liners and those ro-ro trailers you mentioned. At the time, Irish Rail was coming up with some pretty nifty ideas of it's own accord and investment with minimal investment and but as things go it was a big ask.

Let's not get into the why not's of that depot story today; it would fill a book and then some. Suffice to say but after a lot of initial political interference, vested interests and general fecking around it was quietly shelved. It would certainly make for an excellent IRRS article some day.

end of the road

anything stopping it from happening now apart from a few extremists (sorry vested interests) and lack of money

Markcheese

end of the road wrote: »

anything stopping it from happening now apart from a few extremists (sorry vested interests) and lack of money

The port tunnel already built ??

ClovenHoof

end of the road wrote: »

anything stopping it from happening now apart from a few extremists (sorry vested interests) and lack of money

The Port Tunnel has been a huge success and did the job in the end.

h.gricer

Whether it becomes cycle or truckway or whatever, the rationalization of Church Road has huge implications for the future of the Docklands line, or I prefer to call it by it's proper name The Liffey Branch, a branch line built by the MGWR from Liffey Junction to the Midland Yard beside the River Liffey in 1864, you can read a very brief history on this line in IRRS Journal No 168 February 2009.
The resent rationalization of Church Road has effectly downgraded this line, making all but impossible for any future railfreight, it's now effectly a dead end into Docklands station, no options for diverting traffic into North Wall Granaries (Point) with that connection now gone in the rationalization.
It's future as a working railway looks very bleak, I wouldn't hold my breath for Docklands station.
Regards
hg

end of the road

Markcheese wrote: »

The port tunnel already built ??

that wouldn't stop it. both could complament each other.

end of the road

h.gricer wrote: »

Whether it becomes cycle or truckway or whatever, the rationalization of Church Road has huge implications for the future of the Docklands line, or I prefer to call it by it's proper name The Liffey Branch, a branch line built by the MGWR from Liffey Junction to the Midland Yard beside the River Liffey in 1864, you can read a very brief history on this line in IRRS Journal No 168 February 2009.
The resent rationalization of Church Road has effectly downgraded this line, making all but impossible for any future railfreight, it's now effectly a dead end into Docklands station, no options for diverting traffic into North Wall Granaries (Point) with that connection now gone in the rationalization.
It's future as a working railway looks very bleak, I wouldn't hold my breath for Docklands station.
Regards
hg

this is what happens when the railway is starved of cash, rash decisians that effect things that have to be redone at great cost. its BR all over again

Captain Chaos

Just look at what happened to Waterford station, now only a single bay platform that can only hold a 5ICR. If a 3+3ICR works it the last coach has to be locked off at Kilkenny. Part of a cliff face collapses and IE go in and nuke the place.

Captain Chaos

Captain Chaos wrote: »

Just look at what happened to Waterford station, now only a single bay platform that can only hold a 5ICR. If a 3+3ICR works it the last coach has to be locked off at Kilkenny. Part of a cliff face collapses and IE go in and nuke the place.

Any photos? Sounds nuts alright.

end of the road

Captain Chaos wrote: »

Just look at what happened to Waterford station, now only a single bay platform that can only hold a 5ICR. If a 3+3ICR works it the last coach has to be locked off at Kilkenny. Part of a cliff face collapses and IE go in and nuke the place.

yes. and i can't see this once great station coming back from this destruction. waterford station R.I.P.

ClovenHoof

Captain Chaos wrote: »

Just look at what happened to Waterford station, now only a single bay platform that can only hold a 5ICR. If a 3+3ICR works it the last coach has to be locked off at Kilkenny. Part of a cliff face collapses and IE go in and nuke the place.

CIE solve every technical issue on the rail network by piecemeal killing the railway off.

If CIE was a doctor and patient arrived with broken limbs the CIE would amputate every time.

davidlacey

h.gricer wrote: »

Whether it becomes cycle or truckway or whatever, the rationalization of Church Road has huge implications for the future of the Docklands line, or I prefer to call it by it's proper name The Liffey Branch, a branch line built by the MGWR from Liffey Junction to the Midland Yard beside the River Liffey in 1864, you can read a very brief history on this line in IRRS Journal No 168 February 2009.
The resent rationalization of Church Road has effectly downgraded this line, making all but impossible for any future railfreight, it's now effectly a dead end into Docklands station, no options for diverting traffic into North Wall Granaries (Point) with that connection now gone in the rationalization.
It's future as a working railway looks very bleak, I wouldn't hold my breath for Docklands station.
Regards
hg

Let's be realistic what future railfreight? There is nothing left on that side for any railfreight as most of the land was sold off

h.gricer

davidlacey wrote: »

Let's be realistic what future railfreight? There is nothing left on that side for any railfreight as most of the land was sold off

I'm not even talking of railfreight, but simply a diversional route when things go wrong which they have in the last 12 months, points failure at North Strand etc, say if engineer's trains HOBS etc, coming from Sligo line, cannot dirvert via Liffey Branch and into NW, the connect from the Liffey Branch (Docklans line) is now lifted and gone in the resent rationalization, I thought I made that clear in my post.
Like the motballed South Wexford line, which is a handy diversional route if something wants to go from Rosslare to Waterford, without having to take a very long route via Dublin, used resently by Railtours Ireland special.
Diversional routes are still part of the network for optional working, even if they don't see daily traffic, just like Antrim / Lisburn in Northern Ireland.
Regards
h.gricer

davidlacey

h.gricer wrote: »

I'm not even talking of railfreight, but simply a diversional route when things go wrong which they have in the last 12 months, points failure at North Strand etc, say if engineer's trains HOBS etc, coming from Sligo line, cannot dirvert via Liffey Branch and into NW, the connect from the Liffey Branch (Docklans line) is now lifted and gone in the resent rationalization, I thought I made that clear in my post.
Like the motballed South Wexford line, which is a handy diversional route if something wants to go from Rosslare to Waterford, without having to take a very long route via Dublin, used resently by Railtours Ireland special.
Diversional routes are still part of the network for optional working, even if they don't see daily traffic, just like Antrim / Lisburn in Northern Ireland.
Regards
h.gricer

Good points ! I think IE see all branches more as revenue streams rather than operationally beneficial which will make there lives a lot harder in the long run as you said, another example was the south wexford line a year or two back used for 22k transfers during heavy rain without it the trains would have been stranded

h.gricer

h.gricer wrote: »

I'm not even talking of railfreight, but simply a diversional route when things go wrong

Well gentlemen & women, is this a first, quoting myself in a thread.
Things definitely gone very wrong, proving me right flooding on the Drumcondra line in the last 2 days, now ain't we lucky the Newcommen line is there to divert all trains to Connolly, but sadly the resent rationalization of Church Road does not allow a similar divertion to North Wall as and when reqiuired.
Regards
h.gricer

ClovenHoof

Who the hell makes these decisions? Why are they not held accountable...

end of the road

ClovenHoof wrote: »

Who the hell makes these decisions? Why are they not held accountable...

nobody relevant gives a ****. thats the reality. it looks good on paper to the government as it means savings, and as long as it means savings no matter what the long term cost then this nonsense will continue. its BR all over again. remove whatever at a cost to save a grand or to, cost millions to put back. however i don't think in irelands case it will be put back