Squad Prediction for November test(s)

connachta

1) McGrath
2) Cronin
3) White
4) O'Connell
5) Toner
6) O'Mohony
7) Diack
8) Heaslip
9) Murray
10) Madigan
11) Zebo
12) Olding
13) Henshaw
14) Trimble
15) Payne
16) Best
17) Buckley
18) Furlong
19) Handerson (Kearney if still injured)
20) Ruddock
21) Marmion
22) Jackson
23) McFadden

thomond2006

Prediction for SA as opposed to what I'd like to see:

McGrath, Best, White, POC, Toner, POM, Henry, Heaslip;
Murray, Sexton, Zebo, D'Arcy, Payne, Bowe, Kearney

Bench: S Cronin, J Cronin, Furlong, Foley, Ruddock, Reddan, Madigan, Henshaw

budhabob

thomond2006 wrote: »

Prediction for SA as opposed to what I'd like to see:

McGrath, Best, White, POC, Toner, POM, Henry, Heaslip;
Murray, Sexton, Zebo, D'Arcy, Payne, Bowe, Kearney

Bench: S Cronin, J Cronin, Furlong, Foley, Ruddock, Reddan, Madigan, Henshaw

Haven't seen much of Ulster, is henry far ahead of TOD?

UnitedWeStand

I've not followed much of the Pro12 recently. Whats White been like? Any good or only there as Moore's injured?

former legend

budhabob wrote: »

Haven't seen much of Ulster, is henry far ahead of TOD?

Yes.

bilston

connachta wrote: »

1) McGrath
2) Cronin
3) White
4) O'Connell
5) Toner
6) O'Mohony
7) Diack
8) Heaslip
9) Murray
10) Madigan
11) Zebo
12) Olding
13) Henshaw
14) Trimble
15) Payne
16) Best
17) Buckley
18) Furlong
19) Handerson (Kearney if still injured)
20) Ruddock
21) Marmion
22) Jackson
23) McFadden

Cronin over Best??
Diack at 7?? Surely you mean Henry?
Payne over Kearney??
Sexton it seems is fit so he will be at 10

I wouldn't mind seeing your centres but unfortunately the best Olding can hope for is some cameo against Georgia if he is lucky.

former legend

connachta wrote: »

1) McGrath
2) Cronin
3) White
4) O'Connell
5) Toner
6) O'Mohony
7) Diack
8) Heaslip
9) Murray
10) Madigan
11) Zebo
12) Olding
13) Henshaw
14) Trimble
15) Payne
16) Best
17) Buckley
18) Furlong
19) Handerson (Kearney if still injured)
20) Ruddock
21) Marmion
22) Jackson
23) McFadden

This is what you would pick rather than your actual prediction?

The Pheasant2

connachta wrote: »

1) McGrath
2) Cronin
3) White
4) O'Connell
5) Toner
6) O'Mohony
7) Diack
8) Heaslip
9) Murray
10) Madigan
11) Zebo
12) Olding
13) Henshaw
14) Trimble
15) Payne
16) Best
17) Buckley
18) Furlong
19) Handerson (Kearney if still injured)
20) Ruddock
21) Marmion
22) Jackson
23) McFadden

I think we'll see TOD's sister at 7 before we'll see Diack starting there! Henry for me is nailed on starter at 7.

I think we'll more likely see Kilcoyne or Cronin sub LH over Buckley

Henderson is injured so it'll probably be Foley or McCarthy at 19

McFadden injured too I'm pretty sure

Payne at 15 over Kearney would surprise me tbh

connachta

bilston wrote: »

Cronin over Best??
Diack at 7?? Surely you mean Henry? I thought Henry was injured...
Payne over Kearney??
Sexton it seems is fit so he will be at 10

I wouldn't mind seeing your centres but unfortunately the best Olding can hope for is some cameo against Georgia if he is lucky.

Official squad indications has already been given?

connachta

UnitedWeStand wrote: »

I've not followed much of the Pro12 recently. Whats White been like? Any good or only there as Moore's injured?

Quite good, Buckley deserves the bench too, really

Zzippy

thomond2006 wrote: »

Prediction for SA as opposed to what I'd like to see:

McGrath, Best, White, POC, Toner, POM, Henry, Heaslip;
Murray, Sexton, Zebo Trimble, D'Arcy, Payne, Bowe, Kearney

Bench: S Cronin, J Cronin, Furlong Ah You/Fitzpatrick, Foley McCarthy, Ruddock, Reddan Marmion, Madigan Jackson, Henshaw

One change to your starting 15, still think Trimble is well ahead of Zebo in terms of what Joe likes to see i.e. workrate around the field as well as the flashy stuff. Could also see a backrow of TOD, POM and Heaslip, but maybe not...
Few changes to bench, think he'll go for experience over youth for some positions. Marmion has overtaken Reddan in the pecking order IMO, and Jackson > Madigan

connachta

Mad/Jackson over Sexton, Cronin over Best and Payne over Kearney because these are test-matches 10 months to the RWC. The 2nd ones are sure bets, the others need international gametime

The Pheasant2

Zzippy wrote: »

One change to your starting 15, still think Trimble is well ahead of Zebo in terms of what Joe likes to see i.e. workrate around the field as well as the flashy stuff. Could also see a backrow of TOD, POM and Heaslip, but maybe not...

Trimble could be a doubt for the AI's - broken toe or something

jspuds

Is Ross injured?

jspuds

jspuds wrote: »

Is Ross injured?

We won't know until MOC is interviewed before the game this weekend :pac:

former legend

jspuds wrote: »

Is Ross injured?

Yes but should be grand for this weekend

RoundBox11

Against SA I think Schmidt will go for:

1. McGrath
2. Best
3. Ross
4. Toner
5. POC
6. Ruddock
7. Henry
8. Heaslip

9. Murray
10. Sexton
11. Bowe
12. D'Arcy
13. Payne
14. Trimble
15. Kearney

Subs: Kilcoyne, Cronin, Ah You, Foley, POM, Reddan, Jackson, Henshaw

I reckon POM will start at 6 and Zebo at 11 against Australia at least and Henshaw at 13 against Georgia. I also think well see an other tightness start against at least Georgia and possibly Australia.

WTO

connachta wrote: »

Mad/Jackson over Sexton, Cronin over Best and Payne over Kearney because these are test-matches 10 months to the RWC. The 2nd ones are sure bets, the others need international gametime

If Ireland are to have any chance of dispatching the WallaBoks, Murray & Sexton must be the halves. Not that this is a particularly groundbreaking insight. At a pinch Jackson might be given the Georgian game. No value in starting Madigan, he is not 1st or 2nd choice flyhalf for Ireland, but is always an option for the bench.

At some point Payne should get a start at 15, if only to lock him permanently into Irish colours, but it's always useful to have backup and competition for spots, and Kearney hasn't had a lot of contenders for his jersey in recent times.

NB: I asked this a while back, but has Payne actually declared for Ireland in a formal sense?

Zzippy

WTO wrote: »

If Ireland are to have any chance of dispatching the WallaBoks, Murray & Sexton must be the halves. Not that this is a particularly groundbreaking insight. At a pinch Jackson might be given the Georgian game. No value in starting Madigan, he is not 1st or 2nd choice flyhalf for Ireland, but is always an option for the bench.

At some point Payne should get a start at 15, if only to lock him permanently into Irish colours, but it's always useful to have backup and competition for spots, and Kearney hasn't had a lot of contenders for his jersey in recent times.

NB: I asked this a while back, but has Payne actually declared for Ireland in a formal sense?

Agree with all of this, especially giving Kearney some competition at 15, which I think is by far Payne's best position.

Don't think there's any formal declaration - he's IQ but no declaration of loyalty means anything til he's capped. That's only a matter of time (weeks) now though...

Tox56

WTO wrote: »

If Ireland are to have any chance of dispatching the WallaBoks, Murray & Sexton must be the halves. Not that this is a particularly groundbreaking insight. At a pinch Jackson might be given the Georgian game. No value in starting Madigan, he is not 1st or 2nd choice flyhalf for Ireland, but is always an option for the bench.

At some point Payne should get a start at 15, if only to lock him permanently into Irish colours, but it's always useful to have backup and competition for spots, and Kearney hasn't had a lot of contenders for his jersey in recent times.

NB: I asked this a while back, but has Payne actually declared for Ireland in a formal sense?

Think hes been at the camps and everything, and hes been giving interviews about his future with Ireland. He'll be involved in some way in this AI series for sure, probably starting 13

WTO

Tox56 wrote: »

Think hes been at the camps and everything, and hes been giving interviews about his future with Ireland. He'll be involved in some way in this AI series for sure, probably starting 13

He really should be capped at the first opportunity, removing any hint of NZ eligibility would basically eliminate any Super teams calling. Not saying he wants to leave, but might as well remove any temptations while we can.

Tox56

What I'd expect for SA

McGrath Best Ross
Toner POC
POM Heaslip Henry

Murray Sexton
D'Arcy Payne
Trimble Kearney Bowe

Cronin, Kilcoyne, Fitzpatrick?, McCarthy, Ruddock, Reddan, Jackson, Zebo

Wouldn't be surprised to see Henshaw start at 13 either, Schmidt is a big fan. Ruddock could well get in at 6 too, SA is the perfect game for him. Zebo could get on one of the wings if he really lights it up in the Euro comp

Tox56

WTO wrote: »

He really should be capped at the first opportunity, removing any hint of NZ eligibility would basically eliminate any Super teams calling. Not saying he wants to leave, but might as well remove any temptations while we can.

Hes a decent 23 as he covers centre and fullback so if nothing else he could get in there (if Zebo starts ahead of Bowe he's probably a better option than Tommy for that position), but realistically I could see him starting at 13 in at least one of the games. If he doesnt get injured he'll get a cap in the AIs, no doubt about it

former legend

For the Boks, I'd predict:

McGrath, Best, Ross
POC, Toner
Ruddock/POM, Henry, Heaslip
Murray, Sexton
Bowe, D'Arcy, Payne, Trimble
Kearney

Cronin, Cronin, White, McCarthy, Ruddock/POM, Reddan, Jackson, Zebo

Very predictable but I'd be surprised if it deviates much from that. It assumes Trimble is fit and McFadden isn't. Blind side is too close to call, sub loose head is probably whoever starts for Munster. Marmion ahead of Reddan maybe, depending on Reddan's form in the next two weeks.

nipps

whats the maximum number of players for the entire squad?

bilston

nipps wrote: »

whats the maximum number of players for the entire squad?

Matchday squad is 23. As far the squad for the series is concerned it can be as big or as small as Joe wants

nipps

i didnt realise it could be as big as the coach wants

nipps

my squad would be:
LH: McGrath, Kilkoyne, Buckley
TH: Ross, Fitzpatrick, Ah You
HK: Best, Cronin, Strauss/Varley (whoever has better form)
SR: POC, Toner, Foley, McCarthy
FL: Ruddock, POM, Henry, TOD, Diack
8: Heaslip
SH: Murray, Reddan, Marmion
FH: Sexton, Jackson, Madigan
CE: D'Arcy, Payne, Henshaw, Reid
WG: Trimble, Bowe, Zebo, Gilroy
FB: Kearney

Thats 34 in the training camp.

For SA game:

McGrath, Best, Ross
POC, Toner
Ruddock, Heaslip, Henry

Murray, Sexton
D'arcy, Payne
Trimble, Kearney, Bowe

Cronin, Kilkoyne, Fitzpatrick, Foley, POM, Reddan, Jackson, Zebo

Mahatma Geansai

When someone alludes to Zebo's work-rate not being good enough, its essentially an admission that they don't watch Munster play.

molloyjh

|South Africa||Georgia||Australia
01.|McGrath|01.|Kilcoyne|01.|McGrath
02.|Best|02.|Cronin|02.|Best
03.|Ross|03.|Fitzpatrick|03.|Ross
04.|Toner|04.|Toner|04.|Toner
05.|O'Connell|05.|Foley|05.|O'Connell
06.|Ruddock|06.|O'Mahony|06.|O'Mahony
07.|Henry|07.|O'Donnell|07.|Henry
08.|Heaslip|08.|Heaslip|08.|Heaslip
|||||
09.|Murray|09.|Marmion|09.|Murray
10.|Sexton|10.|Jackson|10.|Sexton
11.|Trimble|11.|Zebo|11.|Trimble
12.|D'Arcy|12.|D'Arcy|12.|D'Arcy
13.|Payne|13.|Henshaw|13.|Payne/Henshaw
14.|Bowe|14.|Bowe/Trimble|14.|Bowe
15.|R Kearney|15.|R Kearney|15.|R Kearney
|||||
16.|Cronin|16.|Casey|16.|Cronin
17.|Kilcoyne|17.|McGrath|17.|Kilcoyne
18.|Fitzpatrick|18.|Ross|18.|Fitzpatrick
19.|McCarthy|19.|McCarthy|19.|McCarthy
20.|O'Mahony|20.|Ruddock|20.|Ruddock
21.|Marmion|21.|Murray|21.|Marmion
22.|Jackson|22.|Madigan|22.|Jackson
23.|Zebo|23.|McCloskey|23.|Zebo

Zzippy

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

When someone alludes to Zebo's work-rate not being good enough, its essentially an admission that they don't watch Munster play.

It was well-documented (or alluded to widely) that the reason JS wasn't selecting Zebo previously was down to his lack of workrate off the ball. Granted, I haven't seen much of Zebo this season except on tv, where it's difficult to watch players when the ball isn't near them, but he's had long quiet spells in games where he wasn't involved in the game, unlike Trimble, who seems to get on the ball a lot more anytime I've watched Ulster this season. Both have 4 tries scored, but I've been more impressed with Trimble. End of. He has at least one man of the match award too.

If you're going to get defensive any time a Munster player is criticised at least back up your opinion with something relevant. Debate the point I raised, not whether I watch Munster play or not.

former legend

TBH, it doesn't matter what Zebo's work rate is, Trimble has been the form winger in the country for about two years now. If he's fit, he plays.

I think Bowe is nailed on too.

Mahatma Geansai

Zzippy wrote: »

It was well-documented (or alluded to widely) that the reason JS wasn't selecting Zebo previously was down to his lack of workrate off the ball. Granted, I haven't seen much of Zebo this season except on tv, where it's difficult to watch players when the ball isn't near them, but he's had long quiet spells in games where he wasn't involved in the game, unlike Trimble, who seems to get on the ball a lot more anytime I've watched Ulster this season. Both have 4 tries scored, but I've been more impressed with Trimble. End of. He has at least one man of the match award too.

If you're going to get defensive any time a Munster player is criticised at least back up your opinion with something relevant. Debate the point I raised, not whether I watch Munster play or not.

Although I'm not pushing for Zebo to be included ahead of Trimble (they play different positions for their clubs) or anyone else, I have an issue with your lazy/misinformed criticism. I've taken a quick look at the ESPN Scrum stats in an attempt to quash your inaccurate generalisations.

In the Pro12 this season, Trimble has played in 6 games (~360 minutes) and Zebo has played 5 full games (400 minutes). In that time - by my quick count - Trimble has touched the ball 59 times while Zebo has handled the ball 69 times. With the information to hand, you are incorrect to essentially state that Trimble has gotten on the ball a lot more than Zebo this season. In fact, within this inherently limited sample-size, Zebo has gotten on the ball more than Trimble in a lesser-performing side.

Now, I'm sure you have no issue admitting to spreading inaccurate assumptions? Even if my reading of the stats is off - as it could easily be - it is clear that Zebo doesn't get involved on the ball significantly less than Trimble.

Mahatma Geansai

former legend wrote: »

TBH, it doesn't matter what Zebo's work rate is, Trimble has been the form winger in the country for about two years now. If he's fit, he plays.

I think Bowe is nailed on too.

I don't think anyone would be significantly aggrieved with that. I've only sought to highlight the lazy misinformation regarding Zebo's game.

CatFromHue

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

Although I'm not pushing for Zebo to be included ahead of Trimble (they play different positions for their clubs) or anyone else, I have an issue with your lazy/misinformed criticism. I've taken a quick look at the ESPN Scrum stats in an attempt to quash your inaccurate generalisations.

In the Pro12 this season, Trimble has played in 6 games (~360 minutes) and Zebo has played 5 full games (400 minutes). In that time - by my quick count - Trimble has touched the ball 59 times while Zebo has handled the ball 69 times. With the information to hand, you are incorrect to essentially state that Trimble has gotten on the ball a lot more than Zebo this season. In fact, within this inherently limited sample-size, Zebo has gotten on the ball more than Trimble in a lesser-performing side.

Now, I'm sure you have no issue admitting to spreading inaccurate assumptions? Even if my reading of the stats is off - as it could easily be - it is clear that Zebo doesn't get involved on the ball significantly less than Trimble.

I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with you but even your positioning on the field and how you move when the opposition have, or when your team has, the ball can influence their/your team mates play. This won't show up on any stats list though.

Zebo put in a good few covering tackles against Leinster too but they're hard to quantify, as did Trimble against Zebre for example.

CatFromHue

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

I don't think anyone would be significantly aggrieved with that. I've only sought to highlight the lazy misinformation regarding Zebo's game.

I have to say the lazy misinformation about Zebo's game also applies to his supposed X factor. He is a very good player, and a very good finished but isn't someone who creates something from nothing very often.

I sometimes feel I don't know who this Zebo person is when reading about him after seeing him play.

Fireball07

There is a big question to ask in whether Trimble is fit though.

I've made a few changes to what molloy had:

I've got James Cronin on the bench for one of the big games.
I think Casey should start against Georgia (not sure if he will though)
White and Fitzpatrick both as options for backup 3
I'd be benching Foley ahead of McCarthy, think he's in much better form.
Was tempted to try someone else at 8 against Georgia but there isn't much option unless you put POM there and move Ruddock to 6.
I'd like to see Zebo & Bowe start one game each alongside Trimble.
I want to see Olding play against Georgia.
Payne to 15 for Georgia game too.

|South Africa||Georgia||Australia
01.|McGrath|01.|Kilcoyne|01.|McGrath
02.|Best|02.|Casey|02.|Best
03.|Ross|03.|White|03.|Ross
04.|Toner|04.|Toner|04.|Toner
05.|O'Connell|05.|Foley|05.|O'Connell
06.|Ruddock|06.|O'Mahony|06.|O'Mahony
07.|Henry|07.|O'Donnell|07.|Henry
08.|Heaslip|08.|Heaslip|08.|Heaslip
|||||
09.|Murray|09.|Marmion|09.|Murray
10.|Sexton|10.|Jackson|10.|Sexton
11.|Trimble|11.|Zebo|11.|Zebo
12.|D'Arcy|12.|Olding|12.|D'Arcy
13.|Payne|13.|Henshaw|13.|Henshaw
14.|Bowe|14.|Bowe|14.|Trimble
15.|R Kearney|15.|Payne|15.|R Kearney
|||||
16.|Cronin|16.|Cronin|16.|Cronin
17.|Kilcoyne|17.|Cronin|17.|Cronin
18.|White|18.|Fitzpatrick|18.|Fitzpatrick
19.|Foley|19.|McCarthy|19.|Foley
20.|O'Mahony|20.|Ruddock|20.|Ruddock
21.|Marmion|21.|Murray|21.|Marmion
22.|Jackson|22.|Madigan|22.|Jackson
23.|Zebo|23.|Trimble|23.|Bowe

Mahatma Geansai

CatFromHue wrote: »

I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with you but even your positioning on the field and how you move when the opposition have, or when your team has, the ball can influence their/your team mates play. This won't show up on any stats list though.

Zebo put in a good few covering tackles against Leinster too but they're hard to quantify, as did Trimble against Zebre for example.

You're completely correct. There's a reason why I constructed (/tried to construct) my debate of Zzippy's statements as I did. I didn't venture to say that Zebo has been in better form, or that his contributions were more significant, merely that Zzippy's assumptions/generalisations are veritably incorrect.

People hear that Zebo is a flair player; they expect the sublime every time he takes the field, and say he was poor if that doesn't occur. The truth is that he is simply a very good player with many strings to his bow.

CatFromHue

Yeah, I'm pretty great all right :cool:

molloyjh

I reckon what we'll see against Aus will depend on how the other games (and training obv) go. Payne/Henshaw will be determined based on performances. I'd suggest Zebo/Bowe the same. Who starts at 6 will depend on how we want to play the game.

I'd love to have other options at 8 and 15 for the Georgia game, but we just don't have them right now. Payne is playing 13 so probably won't go to FB next month. At 8 it's really just Copeland and his involvement will require big performances in the next 2 weeks. Do that and is have him at 8 vs Georgia.

I'd query whether White will realistically be involved at the RWC. I really like the guy, but if he isn't in the running for that then he prob isn't in the running for the AIs. That said Fitzpatrick is glass so do we really want to rely on him?

molloyjh

Also, if we're trying out new 13s then Darce will prob play all games. That gives you a chance to compare Payne and Henshaw on a more even basis.

Olding seems to be behind McCloskey now, but again the next 2 weeks will tell us more. Whichever of the two start in Europe should feature. They're too good not to. But as good as Olding is I really, really rate McCloskey. And Joe likes big 12s AFAIK. Coughlan was moved to 12 after Sheridan didn't work out. Both under Joes watch.

Buer

McGrath, Best, Ross, POC, Toner, POM, Henry, Heaslip, Murray, Sexton, Zebo, D'Arcy, Payne, Bowe, Kearney.

Cronin, Cronin, White, Foley, Ruddock, Reddan, Jackson/Madigan, Henshaw

.ak

Hard to see Trimble not playing unless he's injured.

thomond2006

thomond2006 wrote: »

Prediction for SA as opposed to what I'd like to see:

McGrath, Best, White, POC, Toner, POM, Henry, Heaslip;
Murray, Sexton, Zebo, D'Arcy, Payne, Bowe, Kearney

Bench: S Cronin, J Cronin, Furlong, Foley, Ruddock, Reddan, Madigan, Henshaw

I'm basing the above on Trimble being injured, I thought he was? Toe injury?

Podge_irl

molloyjh wrote: »

Also, if we're trying out new 13s then Darce will prob play all games.

While I could somewhat understand the logic I think that would be a complete waste. I think there is a very good chance either or both of Olding and McCloskey could be better options a year from now.

former legend

Podge_irl wrote: »

While I could somewhat understand the logic I think that would be a complete waste. I think there is a very good chance either or both of Olding and McCloskey could be better options a year from now.

A year ago, everyone was saying that playing D'Arcy in the 2013 AIs was a waste because Marshall would be the first choice by the 2014 6N.

I know D'Arcy is shoving on and by the time the RWC rolls around, he'll be 35, but he's still the best 12 we have. You stick an untried 12 and an untried 13 in partnership against the Boks and bad things are going to happen, but more importantly, you learn nothing.

I'd play D'Arcy + Payne against SA then McCloskey/Olding + Henshaw a go against Georgia, then decide on the best pairing for the Australia game.

The Pheasant2

For Georgia:

1. Kilcoyne
2. Best
3. Ross
4. Toner
5. Foley
6. POM
7. TOD
8. Heaslip

9. Marmion
10. Jackson/Madigan
11. Zebo
12. McCloskey
13. Henshaw
14. Bowe
15. Kearney

16. Casey
17. Cronin/Buckley
18. Fitzpatrick
19. McCarthy
20. Henry
21. Reddan
22. Olding
23. Gilroy (assuming Trimble injured)

Very green 9-13 system I know but there's good experience outside 'em. I'd just love to see how they'd get on. I've reconciled that by playing a relatively strong, experienced pack to meet Georgia where the challenge will likely come - up front. Bench comes with a mix of old and new which would hopefully keep the intensity up while also exposing a few of the greener guys to international rugby.

Oh and this way we manage to get McCloskey and Olding on

molloyjh

Podge_irl wrote: »

While I could somewhat understand the logic I think that would be a complete waste. I think there is a very good chance either or both of Olding and McCloskey could be better options a year from now.

Yeah I struggled with that one a bit tbh. But you need to give Payne & Henshaw as close to a level playing field as possible. The 13 jersey is the most important one for the AIs as we absolutely have to identify a front runner going into the new year.

Assuming we put a decent score on Georgia in the first half we can look to bring McCloskey/Olding on in the second and at least have a look at that option. And maybe even put whichever one features on the bench again vs Oz should they perform and just decide on the wingers from the previous 2 games.

It's a tough one to call though as we need to have cover for certain positions as well as trying to get a look at some of the players.

bilston

The key against Georgia for me is to pick as strong a pack as possible and then this should allow us to pick a green backline. This may be a bit stereotypical but it's fair to say Georgia's strengths will most likely be in the pack.

Edit - I'm not convinced McCloskey will be involved at this juncture. If he is picked for Ulster in the next two games and plays well then maybe but he is still to play in a European game. That said Olding is yet to start a European game but he has been involved with Ireland already which gives him a bit of a headstart of McCloskey.

Podge_irl

former legend wrote: »

A year ago, everyone was saying that playing D'Arcy in the 2013 AIs was a waste because Marshall would be the first choice by the 2014 6N.

Well I don't think I was one of them (though I'm not sure!).

I'm not saying it's pointless playing D'Arcy though, I'm saying it's a waste to not give other players opportunities. There is a difference, albeit a subtle one. I have no problem with D'Arcy being the front-runner at the moment but if history has taught us anything it is that the drop in form of older players can be rather precipitous.

Zzippy

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

Although I'm not pushing for Zebo to be included ahead of Trimble (they play different positions for their clubs) or anyone else, I have an issue with your lazy/misinformed criticism. I've taken a quick look at the ESPN Scrum stats in an attempt to quash your inaccurate generalisations.

In the Pro12 this season, Trimble has played in 6 games (~360 minutes) and Zebo has played 5 full games (400 minutes). In that time - by my quick count - Trimble has touched the ball 59 times while Zebo has handled the ball 69 times. With the information to hand, you are incorrect to essentially state that Trimble has gotten on the ball a lot more than Zebo this season. In fact, within this inherently limited sample-size, Zebo has gotten on the ball more than Trimble in a lesser-performing side.

Now, I'm sure you have no issue admitting to spreading inaccurate assumptions? Even if my reading of the stats is off - as it could easily be - it is clear that Zebo doesn't get involved on the ball significantly less than Trimble.

Stats don't show workrate off the ball though, which is what JS's apparent concern with Zebo's game was last year. I pointed out that I had only seen both players on tv this season - that's not being lazy or misinformed, that's what most people only see. TV only shows when players get on the ball or make tackles really, runs off the ball, positioning and communication with players around them are impossible to judge from tv.

And by the way, stats can be used to show anything. For instance, (and you left these ones out) the fact that Trimble on average makes more metres than Zebo - 269 vs 233, for fewer touches of the ball as you showed. Also makes more clean breaks (8 v 5) and beats more defenders (12 v 5), and has made 26 tackles to Zebo's 17. So if I was misinformed that Trimble seems to get on the ball more, I apologise - but it was probably down to observing that Trimble does more with the ball when he does get it. And about the only stat on ESPN that relates to work off the ball - tackles made - he makes more than Zebo.