Rambling

tom_tarbucket

This is going to probably sound like a ramble.

In the past I always had it in my head that mechanically cars such as citroen, Peugeot, Renault, Fiat were not great and would cause a lot of heartache to own. Maybe this is what these cars were like 30 years ago : )

since I've started driving myself since 2000,I've driven volkswagens, audis and BMWs.......and trust me, none were perfect.

generally speaking, in this day and age, from a reliability point of view are all modern cars much the same now due to modern standards etc like the 4 brands above and also throw in stuff like kia, hyundai skoda etc.

porsche boy

if you think Ze Germans are unreliable have a bash at Le French motors and you'll soon realise just how good a VW is. It's not just reliability, it's build quality, it's the materials, it's the resale value.

tom_tarbucket

porsche boy wrote: »

if you think Ze Germans are unreliable have a bash at Le French motors and you'll soon realise just how good a VW is. It's not just reliability, it's build quality, it's the materials, it's the resale value.

yeah but is that the case in this modern day and age. I'm sure many people will buy Renault etc and may well have trouble free driving.

FrontDoor

I had a chat lately with a guy who sells a lot of second hand cars. He gets them from English auctions and sells them on here.

He hates to see somebody coming in looking for a BMW as he feels they are just a money pit after a certain age and more often than not, they are back to him with a 4 figure bill.

He would happily sell Ford, VW, Audi and Citroen all day long, along with the Japanese stuff.

HandsomeDan

porsche boy wrote: »

if you think Ze Germans are unreliable have a bash at Le French motors and you'll soon realise just how good a VW is. It's not just reliability, it's build quality, it's the materials, it's the resale value.

PSA consistently beat WV for reliability on warranty direct, adac, etc...

fmcg_scribe

HandsomeDan wrote: »

PSA consistently beat WV for reliability on warranty direct, adac, etc...

PSA might beat VW "on warranty direct, adac" but I reckon that Skoda, which is owned by VW, would trump any bog standard French and Italian for build quality and reliability.

HandsomeDan

fmcg_scribe wrote: »

PSA might beat VW "on warranty direct, adac" but I reckon that Skoda, which is owned by VW, would trump any bog standard French and Italian for build quality and reliability.

You mean yesterdays cars today skoda?

I have have a 508 before any skoda

fmcg_scribe

FrontDoor wrote: »

I had a chat lately with a guy who sells a lot of second hand cars. He gets them from English auctions and sells them on here.

He hates to see somebody coming in looking for a BMW as he feels they are just a money pit after a certain age and more often than not, they are back to him with a 4 figure bill.

He would happily sell Ford, VW, Audi and Citroen all day long, along with the Japanese stuff.

Agree that a used BMW can become a money pit especially if one or two previous owners ran the car on a shoestring. But the same could apply to a used Audi or Merc of the same age or mileage.

A Ford, VW, or Citroen should be cheaper to run, however, over a long period, Citroen, Peugeot, Fiat, and Alfa-Romeo (to name but four) have not done so well in reliability and customer satisfaction surveys. The perceived reliability and running costs of these brands don't help their residuals, so depreciation can be a big issue.

fmcg_scribe

HandsomeDan wrote: »

You mean yesterdays cars today skoda?

I have have a 508 before any skoda

Don't understand your point??

pred racer

porsche boy wrote: »

if you think Ze Germans are unreliable have a bash at Le French motors and you'll soon realise just how good a VW is. It's not just reliability, it's build quality, it's the materials, it's the resale value.

I agree with the resale value, the rest IMO is wrong! I have had several French cars and no problems with any of them.
I currently drive an Alfa that's going strong at 250k km

tom_tarbucket

FrontDoor wrote: »

I had a chat lately with a guy who sells a lot of second hand cars. He gets them from English auctions and sells them on here.

He hates to see somebody coming in looking for a BMW as he feels they are just a money pit after a certain age and more often than not, they are back to him with a 4 figure bill.

He would happily sell Ford, VW, Audi and Citroen all day long, along with the Japanese stuff.

interesting. .....

robtri

well if you are just looking for the driving experience VW really do not measure up....
this is the JD power driving experience, reliability issues.....
3 VW in bottom ten....
http://www.whatcar.com/awards/jdpower/2014/areas?topicId=1&areaId=2

But then again.... overall ownership and how good they are VW does good
http://www.whatcar.com/awards/jdpower/2014/models

tom_tarbucket

from what I'm hearing myself lately, the build quality of most cars ( and not just the premium brands ) these days seems to be of a decent quality and the perceived "unreliable" cars of old are actually half decent now and won't blow up after driving them out of the garage : )

I've had a Ford Focus, Toyota Rav4 and now a Peugeot 407. The Focus was owned by me (and now by my dad). It's been hanging around for about 2 years. It was in shocking condition when I got it with a lot of cosmetic issues, but mechanically ran fine. Most expensive thing that's needed doing on it so far was the locks needed changing (not really a Ford problem, though, more a careless owner I'd say).

Rav4 i had for a year. Started to develop one or two squeaks from the wheels. They seemed harmless enough as mechanic couldn't find any issues, but they were still a little annoying. Otherwise car ran like a dream and never gave a single issue.

The 407 has a few issues with it (heater broke, which is a Peugeot problem, down to poor build quality, but they won't stand over it), and the condenser is damaged, but mechanic reckons that's from previous owner/s messing with it rather than a Peugeot-related issue.


Personally, I'd never buy a Peugeot again based on their customer service and attitude towards the heater issue (a minor issue really, but its entirely their fault, so I wouldn't trust them with a more significant issue. They don't seem the kind to issue recalls, if you know what I mean).

Otherwise the car has been running fine. Hasn't really given any issues. Was in dire need of a service, and still needs some glow plugs, but it's not been really giving problems.


So in my anecdotal evidence, all the cars have been much the same.


My brother has an 03 Renault Megane, and has had nothing but trouble and heartache with it. The electrics are just gone to sh*te in it. His wife has an 01 Citroen Xsara, and it's never given any hassle at all (and it's not exactly been treated great, to be honest).

So that's three french cars in the family, and only one of them is really giving any issue (brothers Megane).




I know more than one person that has had a money-pit BMW. Personally, I put this down to people being cheap and not taking care of them properly. Then selling them on and the new owners are after paying feck all for a BMW that's been mistreated for most of its life, and the new owner has a multitude of bills that have stacked up.

I rarely hear of people complaining about their BMW if it's a relatively new or taken care of one. But then every second person owns a BMW these days. The more common they are the more likely you are to hear of their shortcomings. I couldnt afford/justify a relatively new (less than 3 years old) BMW, so I just wouldnt buy one.

Hachiko

tom_tarbucket wrote: »

interesting. .....

i would go along with his thoughts, I think Japanese are best myself.

The Korean ones are catching up and have stepped up quite a bit in recent times.

German cars are great when new, but they they go wrong they will cost, and they will go wrong.

CiniO

In relation to FIAT.

I have 13 year old Fiat Bravo 1.2 (2001). Car has mileage of 230,000km.
I got it when it was 6.5 year old and had half current mileage. It came with full service history including every detail that was ever fixed or repaired in this car.

So just to be quick.
Engine: No issues so far (not a single one)
Gearbox: No issues so far.
Clutch: Changed at 120,000km. No issues so far.
Cooling system: Thermostat needed replacing at 210,000km - simple job.
Exhaust: Totally rusted at age of 10. Had to be replaced entirely except from cathalitic converter which is still original.
Bodywork: No signs of rust.
Suspension/steering - Shocks had to be replaced at about 180,000km. Wishbones, bushings, droplinks, etc need constant attention - I'm replacing them every 2 or 3 years.

So except from suspension which just can't withstand Irish country roads, and exhaust which rusted too quick, car is pretty much running flawless.

FrontDoor

I was in a VW the other day. Cold morning. The driver sat in, turned the key and I'd say was nearly at the head of the road before the glow plug light was out. Revved hard, etc. I could feel the DMF swirling in it.

I saw another car in front of me the other day, one of those small jeeps, and a large dog was sitting on the passenger seat. In the time I was behind it, the dog had licked the entire windscreen. The car had bits of bumper hanging off and I'm not entirely sure the driver knew what was going on.

A superb I parked beside the other day had no tyre thread at all on the rears. A 2013 M Class passenger jeep (up on 100k) had tyres in a shameful condition.

A lot of people driving cars haven't the foggiest notion about what the car is doing, how it should be maintained, etc. The attitude is sit in and floor it. Things like DPFs cause awful trouble to these people.

A car has to achieve an awful lot to tolerate the abuse from some owners.

I am firmly of the belief that I could get most new cars to 200k miles without much bother.

Lots of car companies refuse to acknowledge design flaws, particularly in Ireland.

tom_tarbucket

FrontDoor wrote: »

I was in a VW the other day. Cold morning. The driver sat in, turned the key and I'd say was nearly at the head of the road before the glow plug light was out. Revved hard, etc. I could feel the DMF swirling in it.

I saw another car in front of me the other day, one of those small jeeps, and a large dog was sitting on the passenger seat. In the time I was behind it, the dog had licked the entire windscreen. The car had bits of bumper hanging off and I'm not entirely sure the driver knew what was going on.

A superb I parked beside the other day had no tyre thread at all on the rears. A 2013 M Class passenger jeep (up on 100k) had tyres in a shameful condition.

A lot of people driving cars haven't the foggiest notion about what the car is doing, how it should be maintained, etc. The attitude is sit in and floor it. Things like DPFs cause awful trouble to these people.

A car has to achieve an awful lot to tolerate the abuse from some owners.

I am firmly of the belief that I could get most new cars to 200k miles without much bother.

Lots of car companies refuse to acknowledge design flaws, particularly in Ireland.

Well written ; )

So your saying a lot of people abuse the ****e outta cars and don't give a Fook about them.

But then you go on about design flaws, don't really get ya in relation to people not looking after cars and how that is linked to design flaws. Or maybe I'm just thick.

FrontDoor

tom_tarbucket wrote: »

Well written ; )

So your saying a lot of people abuse the ****e outta cars and don't give a Fook about them.

But then you go on about design flaws, don't really get ya in relation to people not looking after cars and how that is linked to design flaws. Or maybe I'm just thick.

The design flaw was in response to another post about a 407. Most manufacturers seem to disown design flaws, not just Peugeot. Toyota seem very good in this regard. Some of the design flaws in PSA cars (oil pick up line on the 1.6 HDIs) will result in catastrophic failure following poor servicing.

Lots of people treat their cars terribly. Cars costing up on 50 k left in to a guy with a set of spanners and a lift and zero paperwork of any description.

I think some French cars, such as the Mk 11 Laguna were terrible cars.

Others, like the 407 had annoying faults such as constantly beeping and more serious issues that came to light with poor servicing (turbos) and poor driving (dpfs). They just did not tolerate poor drivers at all. In proper hands though, they were a very reliable, comfortable car.

I would not buy a new French car because of the depreciation, but then, would probably not buy any new car. I would happily buy a used one though, particularly a Citroen. I think they are a cut above the other two. I'd very happily buy something like this thing (http://www.cargiant.co.uk/Citroen/C5/details-644379-Citroen-C5.asp) for 10k ish.

tom_tarbucket

FrontDoor wrote: »

The design flaw was in response to another post about a 407. Most manufacturers seem to disown design flaws, not just Peugeot. Toyota seem very good in this regard. Some of the design flaws in PSA cars (oil pick up line on the 1.6 HDIs) will result in catastrophic failure following poor servicing.

Lots of people treat their cars terribly. Cars costing up on 50 k left in to a guy with a set of spanners and a lift and zero paperwork of any description.

I think some French cars, such as the Mk 11 Laguna were terrible cars.

Others, like the 407 had annoying faults such as constantly beeping and more serious issues that came to light with poor servicing (turbos) and poor driving (dpfs). They just did not tolerate poor drivers at all. In proper hands though, they were a very reliable, comfortable car.

I would not buy a new French car because of the depreciation, but then, would probably not buy any new car. I would happily buy a used one though, particularly a Citroen. I think they are a cut above the other two. I'd very happily buy something like this thing (http://www.cargiant.co.uk/Citroen/C5/details-644379-Citroen-C5.asp) for 10k ish.

oh ok, have ya now.
that citroen is a nice car alright.

pred racer

FrontDoor wrote: »

I would not buy a new French car because of the depreciation, but then, would probably not buy any new car. I would happily buy a used one though, particularly a Citroen. I think they are a cut above the other two. I'd very happily buy something like this thing (http://www.cargiant.co.uk/Citroen/C5/details-644379-Citroen-C5.asp) for 10k ish.

Just so you know, Peugeot and Citroen are the same company, they use the same parts, engines, platforms....everything. (Except hydraulic suspension obviously)
Apart from the Peugeot parts are cheaper that the Citroen ones for some reason.

FrontDoor

pred racer wrote: »

Just so you know, Peugeot and Citroen are the same company, they use the same parts, engines, platforms....everything. (Except hydraulic suspension obviously)
Apart from the Peugeot parts are cheaper that the Citroen ones for some reason.

I know.

fmcg_scribe

pred racer wrote: »

Just so you know, Peugeot and Citroen are the same company, they use the same parts, engines, platforms....everything. (Except hydraulic suspension obviously)
Apart from the Peugeot parts are cheaper that the Citroen ones for some reason.

Sounds about right. In terms of positioning, I think that the parent company PSA wants to pitch Citroen as cheaper and perhaps less exclusive than Peugeot, so Peugeot wil sit between the Citroen and DS brands as a sort of mid-market brand, with the DS brand being the premium brand.

PSA has noted what Renault has done with the Dacia budget brand but for now the company does not want to go down that route.

fmcg_scribe

FrontDoor wrote: »

I was in a VW the other day. Cold morning. The driver sat in, turned the key and I'd say was nearly at the head of the road before the glow plug light was out. Revved hard, etc. I could feel the DMF swirling in it.

I saw another car in front of me the other day, one of those small jeeps, and a large dog was sitting on the passenger seat. In the time I was behind it, the dog had licked the entire windscreen. The car had bits of bumper hanging off and I'm not entirely sure the driver knew what was going on.

A superb I parked beside the other day had no tyre thread at all on the rears. A 2013 M Class passenger jeep (up on 100k) had tyres in a shameful condition.

A lot of people driving cars haven't the foggiest notion about what the car is doing, how it should be maintained, etc. The attitude is sit in and floor it. Things like DPFs cause awful trouble to these people.

A car has to achieve an awful lot to tolerate the abuse from some owners.

I am firmly of the belief that I could get most new cars to 200k miles without much bother.

Lots of car companies refuse to acknowledge design flaws, particularly in Ireland.

Agree that a lot of people don't have the interest, knowledge, or money to maintain their cars properly - this includes owners of many premium and luxury models. That said, the electronics being put into most modern cars have become a challenge for anyone trying to diagnose or repair faults. Indeed, it is rumoured in the UK at least that many technicians in many franchise dealerships often cannot diagnose problems with high end cars without first consulting technicians at the manufacturer's HQ.