Hard copy of legal documents

iang198

Hi,
I'm wondering if it is necessary by law in Ireland that all legal document (birth certs, death certs, marriage certs and passports etc) must be printed in hard copy?
If so, under what act?

If you have any other information on why or what certain document/publications must be published in hard copy versus digitally I would be delighted if you could share your knowledge.

Regards.

Little CuChulainn

Depends on the purpose. A photocopy of a driving licence would not suffice for the Gardaí but might for a bank.

Bepolite

e-commerce act might be instructive?

iang198

Bepolite wrote: »

e-commerce act might be instructive?

I doesn't explicitly say.. I mean I'm pretty sure that you can't get a digital version of your birthcert but is there any act that proves that?

Also any acts about bills etc in dáil? Must they be printed on paper?

GarIT

iang198 wrote: »

I doesn't explicitly say.. I mean I'm pretty sure that you can't get a digital version of your birthcert but is there any act that proves that?

Also any acts about bills etc in dáil? Must they be printed on paper?

I'm pretty sure there isn't any law like that. I'm sure it isn't illegal to be in possession of a digital copy of any of those documents. That doesn't mean they do offer, are required to offer or accept digital copies.

iang198

I'm competing in a debate next week and I must prove that Ireland still works from Hardcopies of legal documents, medical prescriptions etc rather than digital..
I want to say how we cannot prove our identity without a printed/published version of our birth cert and I need some proof of this

Bepolite

iang198 wrote: »

I'm competing in a debate next week and I must prove that Ireland still works from Hardcopies of legal documents, medical prescriptions etc rather than digital..
I want to say how we cannot prove our identity without a printed/published version of our birth cert and I need some proof of this

Spend about 15 minutes in a court and see how many ipads you see. To be fair if you're in Judge Ring's court she'll probably be glued to the mac-book. (I personally think she's on boards but shhhhh! - joking)

Pat Mustard

Lots of people and organisations accept scanned copy tax documents such as tax clearance certs.

This is handy, as scanned copies can be emailed.

conorh91

iang198 wrote: »

Hi,
I'm wondering if it is necessary by law in Ireland that all legal document (birth certs, death certs, marriage certs and passports etc) must be printed in hard copy?
If so, under what act?

There is no freestanding piece of legislation that deals with identity documents.

Most legal instruments (for example, those relating to residential tenancies or social welfare, or firearms certificates) often refer to an organisation being 'satisfied as to the identity' of some person, without defining how precisely this is to happen.

Whereas in terms of elections, and the purchase of alcohol, and holding bus passes, there are strict rules as regards the required form(s) of ID.

Why do the rules vary? Why are there stricter rules on bus passes than on gun ownership? Hard to say. I suppose it's all to do with the potential social harm which may arise through abuse of process.

Evidently, rogue grannies on public transport seems to rank quite highly in terms of the potential to cause social harm.

iang198

iang198 wrote: »

I'm competing in a debate next week and I must prove that Ireland still works from Hardcopies of legal documents, medical prescriptions etc rather than digital..
I want to say how we cannot prove our identity without a printed/published version of our birth cert and I need some proof of this

What sort of debate is it where you have to prove something? I've never seen a debate where you'd need to do anything of the sort. In fact a debate where you can win the motion with a demonstrable fact is a very very poor debate.

Mr. Incognito

You will be wanting the vital statistics deaths and marriages registration act 1952.

The appendix sets out the form of the certificates

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1952/en/act/pub/0008/print.html

Good luck in the debate

iang198

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

You will be wanting the vital statistics deaths and marriages registration act 1952.

The appendix sets out the form of the certificates



Good luck in the debate

Thanks for your help, although I don't think the act mentioned is of much help to me. I believe that a e-version of the documents mentioned would not breach the act.

My job in out debating team is to prove that most important document must be printed/published in hard copy.
I would rather not specify what exactly the motion is incase the opposition stumble across this thread.

Thanks for your help!

Mr. Incognito

E versions are not provided in the act.

E versions are not suitable for court applications for example.

All court documents must be submitted in hard format. Have a look at the rules of the superior courts

http://www.courts.ie/rules.nsf/lookuppagelink/Superior%20Court%20Rules%20Index

Mr. Incognito

I would also point to the fact all land sold is compulsorarly registerable.

The title deeds must be submitted in hard copy format.

http://www.prai.ie/land-registry-rules-1-193/

If you want to make an argument that hard copy documentation is required in ireland today I would use the courts and land registry more so than official documents.

I would also point out that though contracts can be in electronic format all contracts relating to land must be in written hard copy form.

Also, wills must be witnessed to be valid. In writing. Doesnt have to be a signature but must be a physical mark

Pat Mustard

The Land Registry has an eRegistration service. It used to be just eDischarges to take certain burdens and charges off title. This avoids the necessity for hard copies of the discharges.

Also, Revenue has ROS and PAYE anytime. ROS allows tax returns to be made online, meaning that hard copies of those tax return forms don't have to be sent.

Mr. Incognito

The Mustard wrote: »

The Land Registry has an eRegistration service. It used to be just eDischarges to take certain burdens and charges off title. This avoids the necessity for hard copies of the discharges.

Also, Revenue has ROS and PAYE anytime. ROS allows tax returns to be made online, meaning that hard copies of those tax return forms don't have to be sent.

E Registration only deals with Registered Title. And is not used for any conveyancing transactions. They are in beta testing with the Law Society but I cannot see it coming anytime soon.

To register title you still have to send in everything in hard copy format.

For ROS you still have to register for the service, in hard copy format with a physical signature before you can get set up to use the system.

There is a lot of electronic things coming in but in the main I would say that every emanation of the state still relies almost exclusively on hard copy format and 100% rely on hard copy format for identification purposes.

Even if you open a bank account/ extra vision account you have to have a physical proof of ID

nuac

You can point out that we have been using paper/papyrus/mud tablets etc since writing was first invented, whereas the concept of storing information electronically is scarcely a generation old.

Pat Mustard

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

E Registration only deals with Registered Title. And is not used for any conveyancing transactions. They are in beta testing with the Law Society but I cannot see it coming anytime soon.

EDischarges can be done in soft copy only.

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

For ROS you still have to register for the service, in hard copy format with a physical signature before you can get set up to use the system.

That's just to register for ROS.

You can stamp documents entirely online now. Before you had to post in the deed and a cheque.

Also, CAT returns can be done in soft copy.

my3cents

The Mustard wrote: »

EDischarges can be done in soft copy only.



That's just to register for ROS.

You can stamp documents entirely online now. Before you had to post in the deed and a cheque.

Also, CAT returns can be done in soft copy.

But what happens if you get an audit?

Pat Mustard

my3cents wrote: »

But what happens if you get an audit?

The details are still available through the ROS account.

my3cents

The Mustard wrote: »

The details are still available through the ROS account.

Sorry what I meant was you can file on line but if you get an audit what level of "soft" copy will the revenue take into account in an audit.

For example if you had claimed for things bought for a business online would they accept a print out or pdf of the online account statements or would they require the original paper invoice for every transaction?

Pat Mustard

http://www.revenue.ie/en/practitioner/ebrief/archive/2012/no-062012.html

Retention of Tax Records in Electronic Format

The Information Technology and Procedural requirements to which any electronic, photographic or other process used for the storage, maintenance, transmission, reproduction and communication of any record must conform were published by Revenue in Iris Oifigiúil on 27 January 2012.

The updated requirements differ from the previous requirements (see Tax Briefing 46, December 2001) in two respects:

-It is now no longer a requirement to retain the paper originals of any third party record where an electronic copy of the original record is generated, recorded and stored in accordance with the information technology and procedural requirements as published.

-Addition of a requirement that all electronic copies of records must be accessible to a Revenue official in paper or electronic form, the method and format of delivery to be specified by the Revenue official at the time the records are being requested.

Mr. Incognito

The Mustard wrote: »

EDischarges can be done in soft copy only.



That's just to register for ROS.

You can stamp documents entirely online now. Before you had to post in the deed and a cheque.

Also, CAT returns can be done in soft copy.

E discharges are the banks releasing a mortgage.

Thats exceedingly narrow.

Stamp duty and electronic stamping is also very limited in terms of revenue. Once again you need an account on ros and to register this account has to be done using hard copy verification.

There is no such thing as true electronic commerce with the exception of online trading imo

Pat Mustard

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

There is no such thing as true electronic commerce with the exception of online trading imo

I'd agree that the examples are limited but I was trying to give the OP examples of transactions that can be done entirely electronically, because pretty much everything else is not possible to be done entirely electronically.

Mr. Incognito

I think the op has a good chance.

From the other perspective electronic framework is there, and is the future but we have not quite made the migration yet