Use of Irish Language in the North

spodoinkle

I work for a company based in NI; I have set up my out of office response in Irish. Our HR department have asked me politely to use English as Under our email policy emails should be written and formatted in the same manner as standard written company communications.

Can I reply to them politely no, or do I have a leg to stand on? I always thought under the terms of the GFA, I should be allowed to use the Irish language freely and they are out of line asking me to change my out of office response?

mackerski

spodoinkle wrote: »

I work for a company based in NI; I have set up my out of office response in Irish. Our HR department have asked me politely to use English as Under our email policy emails should be written and formatted in the same manner as standard written company communications.

Can I reply to them politely no, or do I have a leg to stand on? I always thought under the terms of the GFA, I should be allowed to use the Irish language freely and they are out of line asking me to change my out of office response?

Here in Dublin I would expect the same reaction if I did the same. If the people you interact with don't speak Irish then your language choice doesn't seem very aligned with the needs of the business.

maximoose

I don't think it's out of line for them to make you change it. Seems a very odd thing to do tbh.

Pat Mustard

spodoinkle wrote: »

Can I reply to them politely no, or do I have a leg to stand on? I always thought under the terms of the GFA, I should be allowed to use the Irish language freely and they are out of line asking me to change my out of office response?

Let's just say that they tell you to change it or the matter will be dealt with in a disciplinary hearing. What will you do then? Do you intend to litigate the matter on the basis of the Good Friday Agreement or maybe the European Convention on Human Rights?

Seems like a lot of hassle tbh.

Paulw

I work for a multinational Swedish company, but company policy is that the language used for communication is English. This applies to people who work in Sweden, India, China, Ireland, US, Spain, etc.

It's far from an unreasonable request or policy.

uck51js9zml2yt

Makes perfect sense to use Irish if you don't want those calling you to know that you're out of the office.

If you must use Irish why not ask hr if you can leave a bilingual message with English the first.
If they say no and you insist on Irish then I suggest you look for another job where they operate in Irish.

Pro Hoc Vice

Reminds me of this http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7702913.stm

Grolschevik

Set up your auto response in Irish, English and 'Ulster Scots'. See what they say then.

mackerski

Grolschevik wrote: »

Set up your auto response in Irish, English and 'Ulster Scots'. See what they say then.

Why did you only put one of those options in quotes?

Grolschevik

mackerski wrote: »

Why did you only put one of those options in quotes?

To see what the reaction would be.

hullaballoo

mackerski wrote: »

Why did you only put one of those options in quotes?

I'd assume that because it's a non-standardised language so an there would be no generally acceptable translation into Ulster Scots that would be acceptable to all speakers - so you could only provide an approximation of 'Ulster Scots.' Could be wrong.

Grolschevik

hullaballoo wrote: »

I'd assume that because it's a non-standardised language so an there would be no generally acceptable translation into Ulster Scots that would be acceptable to all speakers - so you could only provide an approximation of 'Ulster Scots.' Could be wrong.

Och, ye maun hae college letters efter yer name, thar boy!

hullaballoo

Grolschevik wrote: »

Och, ye maun hae college letters efter yer name, thar boy!

Aye, quare muckle.

Paz-CCFC

The Good Friday Agreement has a few provisions in relation to the Irish language. Eg, the British government will "facilitate and encourage the use of the language" and "seek to remove...restrictions which would discourage or work against the maintenance of the language".

Are you in the private or public sector? In general, legal provisions which impose duties in relation to Irish tend to be aimed at the public sector. Though, private companies who wish to use and develop the language might receive state assistance, depending on the circumstances. I can't say I'd be too au fait with the exact rules in the North, but I can't imagine they'd be much stronger in favour of the language than in the Republic.

If you felt discriminated against, then it might be possible to go down the employment equality route. Race is one of the eight grounds in the UK (nine in Ireland). In Ireland, it has been ruled that discrimination based on language falls under the race ground; it might be similar in the UK, given the very similar legislation. But, it can be objectively justified if done for a real need, appropriate and necessary. So, the employers could say that it was a real need that people be notified in English (because the majority of the client base/co-employees might be English speakers), it was done appropriately and it was necessary/there was no other way to do it that would infringe less on you as an Irish speaker (they only want you to have this part in English, they're not putting an outright ban on communication through Irish).

I'd think the easiest thing, as suggested, is to have a bilingual message. I can't imagine there'd be much of a problem in that. It's the standard thing in Irish businesses to have bilingual out of office messages, too.

Muna nglacfaí le teachtaire dátheangach, b'fhéidir go mbeadh cás agat maidir le hidirdhealú i rith do chuid fhostaíochta.

Tramps Like Us

Yeah, go bilingual

hullaballoo

I think the issue could be that company policy is to use English and English alone. I suppose the OP should query with their HR people whether bi-lingual would be acceptable but, being totally honest, more often than not people insist on using Irish to make a political point rather than out of any grá for the language. Perhaps the company has that in mind. It will if it's based in NI and dealing with people in both North/South and GB.

Manach

Many if not all companies nowadays have policy statements on welcoming a diverse workforce, prominently highlighted on websites and adverts. Given that use of a native language in the country of origin, whose speakers had endured historically bias for speaking that tongue would be a touchstone of diversity. However, given the rather humourless approach HR has about its primary role (protecting the company from employees) then it is likely a Career limiting move to make a fuss.

mackerski

Manach wrote: »

Many if not all companies nowadays have policy statements on welcoming a diverse workforce, prominently highlighted on websites and adverts. Given that use of a native language in the country of origin, whose speakers had endured historically bias for speaking that tongue would be a touchstone of diversity. However, given the rather humourless approach HR has about its primary role (protecting the company from employees) then it is likely a Career limiting move to make a fuss.

Look at that - only a handful of posts on the thread and you've already managed a moral victory. That worked out so neatly one could be forgiven for suspecting you had this outcome in mind all along.

Call me cynical, but I would expect my employer to favour intelligibility to the likely readership over some incremental undoing of a historical wrong when considering which language I should use in my emails.

(Truth be told, as your employer I'd be hoping for a bit more cop on on the part of my staff...)

Manach

mackerski wrote: »

(Truth be told, as your employer I'd be hoping for a bit more cop on on the part of my staff...)

Given the quality of your disjointed response mate, I'd be worried about the structural integrity of the company if you were an employer.

mackerski

Manach wrote: »

Given the quality of your disjointed response mate, I'd be worried about the structural integrity of the company if you were an employer.

Ah well, is fearr Béarla briste ná Gaeilge cliste nach ea?

Manach

mackerski wrote: »

Ah well, is fearr Béarla briste ná Gaeilge cliste nach ea?

Excellent, Buiochas le Dhia do Google Translate. So you've expressed yourself and utilised your culture heritage. Baby steps to be sure, but a start. Next if you can wean yourself from automatically aligning yourself from what a company
prefers with these little streaks of individuality, that will be the next level

mackerski

Manach wrote: »

Excellent, Buiochas le Dhia do Google Translate. So you've expressed yourself and utilised your culture heritage. Baby steps to be sure, but a start. Next if you can wean yourself from automatically aligning yourself from what a company
prefers with these little streaks of individuality, that will be the next level

"Buíochas", wasn't it? Some of us actually paid attention at school, no auto-translators needed for the cúpla focail, I assure you.

I encourage you to explore the wide gap between blindly doing what your boss tells you and spontaneously deciding to address your customers and/or colleagues in a language they don't understand. You may be glad of that salary some day. The Man has his uses.

Paz-CCFC

hullaballoo wrote: »

I think the issue could be that company policy is to use English and English alone.

I could understand them wanting a standardised out of office reply, but I'm not sure if I think it'd be objectively justified. You allude to the tensions in the North, but would not allowing Irish be unfairly attacking one side, ie unjustified discrimination?

A bit of a digression, but someone mentioned multinationals above (though, we don't know if the OP's employer is, too), where English was required as the main language. I'd imagine for things like the OP, they'd allow and even encourage bi/multilingualism. Along the lines that Manach was saying, about diversity in the company.

I suppose the OP should query with their HR people whether bi-lingual would be acceptable but, being totally honest, more often than not people insist on using Irish to make a political point rather than out of any grá for the language. Perhaps the company has that in mind. It will if it's based in NI and dealing with people in both North/South and GB.

I completely disagree with this. I think for every Irish speaker actually using the language as a political tool, there's an anti-Irish person trying to politicise an Irish speaker who just wants to speak the language. Particularly if one wanted to incorporate Irish bilingually alongside English, it seems fairly apolitical to me. I think it'd show the links of the two languages in a positive light.

coylemj

Can we leave the political point-scoring and historical victimhood to one side and consider if it's relevant to ask what language is prevalent among the OP's employer's customers and whether that might matter?

Did the OP claim that Irish is commonly used in the office, or by the customers he has to deal with? No and No.

If the OP works for an employer in Ballymena and 99% of his customers are of the Orange persuasion, might not the employer take exception to the OP leaving an Irish 'out of office' message. Unless he works in West Belfast, I'm thinking he's up to no good.

This thread has all the signs of someone trying to engineer a case for an unfair dismissal on spurious grounds.

OP, if you can't get on with your workmates, get a job somewhere else.

Carawaystick

Nach ceist é seo do na leithreoirí den http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=915

Isn't this a question for http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=915

coylemj

Has boards gone bilingual?

Even the OP didn't try posting his 'issue' in both languages.

Paz-CCFC

coylemj wrote: »

Has boards gone bilingual?

Even the OP didn't try posting his 'issue' in both languages.

Tá cead teanga eile a úsáid ar Boards, ach caithfear aistriúchán Béarla a chur leis (seachas Teach na nGealt is na fóraim theangacha eile).

Other langauges are allowed to be used on Boards, but an English translation has to be provided (except for Teach na nGealt and other language fora).

coylemj

Post as Gaeilge all you like lads, the OP didn't bother.

Do you have any (multilingual) suggestions as to why he didn't?

Suggestion: Because like his employer, his workmates, his employer's customers and most boardsies, all of them use Bearla as their everyday language.

Paz-CCFC

Tada.

None.

Niente.

Rien.

τίποτα.

아무것도

Victor

Paz-CCFC wrote: »

If you felt discriminated against, then it might be possible to go down the employment equality route. Race is one of the eight grounds in the UK (nine in Ireland). In Ireland, it has been ruled that discrimination based on language falls under the race ground; it might be similar in the UK, given the very similar legislation.

So, was the OP being racist by sending a message that many people couldn't understand?

coylemj

Paz-CCFC wrote: »

In Ireland, it has been ruled that discrimination based on language falls under the race ground

Can you quote the case?

And if a Gaeilgoir got a job in an engineering company in Co. Wexford and replied to all his customers' letters and e-mails in Irish, are you seriously claiming that he could play the race card if his employer objected and fired him?

Why don't you take on Government procurement? Virtually every invitation to tender issued by public sector bodies in the Republic says that the tender has to be submitted in English.

Bepolite

Out of interest OP and sorry if it's already been covered; do you usually conduct work correspondence in Irish exclusively?

hullaballoo

coylemj wrote: »

Can we leave the political point-scoring and historical victimhood to one side...

Not really, particularly given what you say below:

If the OP works for an employer in Ballymena and 99% of his customers are of the Orange persuasion, might not the employer take exception to the OP leaving an Irish 'out of office' message. Unless he works in West Belfast, I'm thinking he's up to no good.

It's a highly politically charged issue to be working/living in NI and trying to assert your right to use the Irish language, especially as a representative of an NI-based company (or even a non-NI-based company with an office in NI.)

It's not a matter of political point-scoring, it's a legitimate debate. There are those who think that anyone who uses Irish is a flag-waving Republican nationalist and there are those who think anyone who is against Irish must be a Loyalist.

In between those extremes, there are those who couldn't give a toss on one side and those who just like to use Irish. For example, I don't support nationalism but I do use Irish. I love the language.

Where this debate fits in with the legal issues in this thread is important because obviously, any attempt to resolve work issues around what language you are allowed to use in your official capacity are going to bring that debate into play.

Paz-CCFC, I used the word "insist" on purpose. I didn't mean that every person who uses Irish is doing so for political reasons. I said that those who insist on using it often do so for political reasons.

Paz-CCFC

Victor wrote: »

So, was the OP being racist by sending a message that many people couldn't understand?

Do you think it was?

coylemj wrote: »

Can you quote the case?

Campbell Catering v. Rasaq [2004] 15 ELR 310

And if a Gaeilgoir got a job in an engineering company in Co. Wexford and replied to all his customers' letters and e-mails in Irish, are you seriously claiming that he could play the race card if his employer objected and fired him?

Did I suggest that this could occur? Read over my original post again, particularly where I mentioned objective justification (based on the Bilka Kaufhaus criteria).

Why don't you take on Government procurement? Virtually every invitation to tender issued by public sector bodies in the Republic says that the tender has to be submitted in English.

Because I don't want to.

hullaballoo wrote: »

Paz-CCFC, I used the word "insist" on purpose. I didn't mean that every person who uses Irish is doing so for political reasons. I said that those who insist on using it often do so for political reasons.

But how far does "insist" go? If I were speaking Irish with my friend on the bus and someone told us to stop speaking it and use English instead, I would "insist" on using it. No political motivation.

I can see where you're coming from, Hullaballoo. There will be people who try to use the language as a tool to their advantage and won't budge from it. But, I think that they're a minority. And it's usually flash in the pan stuff, by people who don't really have a lot of knowledge of the language. For example, on the Baile Féitheán Freeman group, they were saying "a chara" this and "a chairde" that, as if they were magic Irish words (we all know how the Freemen love their magic words). But they didn't demonstrate much of an ability to speak it well. I don't think I'd be too wide off the mark by saying these kinda fellas stopped using Irish later on, when they moved onto their next flavour of the month.

coylemj

Paz-CCFC wrote: »

Campbell Catering v. Rasaq [2004] 15 ELR 310

Presumably you're relying on the Labour Court's use of the word 'language' in this judgement which by the way was about a migrant worker, nothing at all to do with the OP's situation.


The Labour Court in its decision made it clear that many non-national workers encounter special difficulties in employment arising from a lack of knowledge concerning statutory and contractual employment rights together with differences of language and culture.

http://www.equality.ie/en/Press-Office/Non-National-Dismissed-because-of-Alleged-Theft-of-Bananas.html

An employee stole bananas from her employer and because she was a migrant worker and the employer fired her without fair procedure, we can all now use any language we please at work? I don't think so.

Paz-CCFC

coylemj wrote: »

Presumably you're relying on the Labour Court's use of the word 'language' in this judgement which by the way was about a migrant worker, nothing at all to do with the OP's situation.


The Labour Court in its decision made it clear that many non-national workers encounter special difficulties in employment arising from a lack of knowledge concerning statutory and contractual employment rights together with differences of language and culture.

http://www.equality.ie/en/Press-Office/Non-National-Dismissed-because-of-Alleged-Theft-of-Bananas.html

An employee stole bananas from her employer and because she was a migrant worker and the employer fired her without fair procedure, we can all now use any language we please at work? I don't think so.

They forbade her from speaking her native language at work. She didn't steal bananas, she was falsely accused of doing so. The evidence did not support that she stole the bananas, and in fact supported the claimant's case that she was dismissed based on discrimination - namely, the race ground.

I did not say that the OP would definitely win a case based on racial discrimination. I said that he MIGHT go down the discrimination avenue, because the Good Friday Agreement argument wouldn't really apply. But, his employer would likely have an objective justification as to their actions. Hence, I suggested a bilingual out of office reply. Any likelihood of winning a case would be up to him and his legal representative to contemplate.

Why do you keep asking suggestive questions, misrepresenting the points that I've made? So, you're saying that it's perfectly okay to dismiss an employee because they can speak Irish? (We can all ask misrepresenting questions)

hullaballoo

Paz-CCFC wrote: »

I can see where you're coming from, Hullaballoo. There will be people who try to use the language as a tool to their advantage and won't budge from it. But, I think that they're a minority. And it's usually flash in the pan stuff, by people who don't really have a lot of knowledge of the language. For example, on the Baile Féitheán Freeman group, they were saying "a chara" this and "a chairde" that, as if they were magic Irish words (we all know how the Freemen love their magic words). But they didn't demonstrate much of an ability to speak it well. I don't think I'd be too wide off the mark by saying these kinda fellas stopped using Irish later on, when they moved onto their next flavour of the month.

I was really just trying to point out that I don't think our points of view stand opposite one another - I'd say we'd largely agree on most things Irish language-related. I only did that because you said you completely disagreed with me, when I don't think that's the case.

I, too, believe that people using the language as a schtick are in the minority. However, in the present case, where the OP is asking about the application of the GFA while working from NI, it is almost certainly a political hot potato, whether it's politically motivated on the OP's part or not.

Paz-CCFC

hullaballoo wrote: »

I was really just trying to point out that I don't think our points of view stand opposite one another - I'd say we'd largely agree on most things Irish language-related. I only did that because you said you completely disagreed with me, when I don't think that's the case.

I, too, believe that people using the language as a schtick are in the minority. However, in the present case, where the OP is asking about the application of the GFA while working from NI, it is almost certainly a political hot potato, whether it's politically motivated on the OP's part or not.

That's fair enough, Hullaballo. I took you up wrong originally and didn't word my reply as I should've.

Faighim pardún leat.

the_syco

spodoinkle wrote: »

I work for a company based in NI; I have set up my out of office response in Irish. Our HR department have asked me politely to use English as Under our email policy emails should be written and formatted in the same manner as standard written company communications.

It really depends on your business. If someone asks someone for a quote, and gets back random gibberish, they're more likely to goto your competitor than to Google Translate.

"Tá mé i an oifig go dtí eitilt na ba go dtí an ghealach" would means as much to me as "Ich flog vorbei an der Teekanne auf meinen Becher von Toffee". I may assume they're out of office, but I'd very likely not contact that person again, or if that person was their companies spokesperson, I may avoid the company.

In a province such as NI, I'd say asking someone to write in English is to ensure the least amount of people are offended.

Pro Hoc Vice wrote: »

Reminds me of this http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7702913.stm

Classic! I'd wager there are some filthy signs out there somewhere!

spodoinkle

coylemj wrote: »

Can we leave the political point-scoring and historical victimhood to one side and consider if it's relevant to ask what language is prevalent among the OP's employer's customers and whether that might matter?

Did the OP claim that Irish is commonly used in the office, or by the customers he has to deal with? No and No.

If the OP works for an employer in Ballymena and 99% of his customers are of the Orange persuasion, might not the employer take exception to the OP leaving an Irish 'out of office' message. Unless he works in West Belfast, I'm thinking he's up to no good.

This thread has all the signs of someone trying to engineer a case for an unfair dismissal on spurious grounds.

OP, if you can't get on with your workmates, get a job somewhere else.

I should have mentioned that our head office is based in the Republic as is 80% of our business; also my out of office has always been in Irish, our email was updated in the past year and I havent been out of office since to set it up.

I wasnt intending on starting a war with the HR department, I was simply looking for a fair response to state that it is unfair of them to ask me to change this; the response is internal only.

coylemj

So you work in the north for a company based in the south, why don't you try a bilingual 'out of office' message? What percentage of your employers customers or staff speak Irish as their everyday language or do you regard that as a red herring?