PPS number for utilities

OU812

Obviously there's a lot of comment & anger at IW requesting PPS numbers, this thread isn't about the right or wrong of PPS numbers, rather the use of them for utilities etc.

Personally I think it's a good thing & that the PPS number should be opened up to all utilities to enable them to catch bad debts etc. I also think utilities should be billed monthly which would greatly reduce bill shock for a lot of people, but that's another matter.

If the likes of electricity companies, gas companies could follow IWs lead in obtaining PPS numbers for services, it would mean that people couldn't leave a property without paying what was owed.

I'd even go so far as to encourage the startup of a deposit escrow by the government to hold deposits paid for rentals & that PPS numbers are attached. That way landlords would be able to find out if there's a potential danger to renting property to some people (not all obviously).

As a disclaimer - not a property/government/IW shill. Just think it's a proper use of the number.

Let the abuse begin...

AlfaZen

No they shouldn't. Where would it stop. PPS# for a restaurant booking in case you do a runner? PPS# to get gym membership?

Your address, your name, your date of birth and a contact phone number should be all any utility company needs.

Any allowances should be applied through the department of social welfare and a rebate or tax credit given for that amount.

Anyway we should only have to pay for water when what we currently contribute via direct tax is removed.

OU812

AlfaZen wrote: »

Anyway we should only have to pay for water when what we currently contribute via direct tax is removed.

That's not what this thread is about.

As for where it would stop. The supply of utilities. it works perfectly well in other countries (particularly the US) where the SSN is used to back up credit (because that's what you're getting - they give you the use of the utility & it's paid in arrears.

Gatling

OU812 wrote: »

That's not what this thread is about.

As for where it would stop. The supply of utilities. it works perfectly well in other countries (particularly the US) where the SSN is used to back up credit (because that's what you're getting - they give you the use of the utility & it's paid in arrears.

This is it where does it stop utilities asking to take payments directly from your wage packet or social welfare payment,

To me the whole iw issue has set a presadent

Victor

AlfaZen wrote: »

Anyway we should only have to pay for water when what we currently contribute via direct tax is removed.

On topic please.

Moderator

Grandpa Hassan

I really don't see the issue that people have with giving pps numbers. People have just brought into the scaremongering by the indo and others You'd think it was the equivalent of giving over your life savings! I believe that utilities should get have your pps number, to help track people down. We all ultimately pick up the tab for those that leave rented accommodation without paying their bills and leaving no forwarding address.

Lukker-

PPS numbers aren't some form of insurance scheme for big companies. You have to draw the line somewhere and I don't think people understand how important their private information is. It would get out of hand extremely quickly, with the possibility of your personal information being traded or sold between corporations. This is already happening.

Gatling

Its your personal public service number

Not your universal utilities service number or bill pay number that anyone can access

Mrs OBumble

AlfaZen wrote: »

Your address, your name, your date of birth and a contact phone number should be all any utility company needs.

You're dreaming if you think that a utility provider is going to give you credit with that little information.

Currently, to sign up with ESB you need to give them:
Your name and the address you're moving into
Your move in date
The MPRN number (available from previous occupant, landlord or estate agent)
The meter reading on your move in date
Your date of birth (for security reasons)
The account number from your previous address (and they will ask some security question based on this, to verify that it really is your account).

If you're a new customer so don't have a previous ESB account number, then you also have to give them E300 or a direct debit authority, ie the right to take as much money as they want from your bank account at any time they feel like it.


I can't find similar information on the O2 website - but am sure that when I signed up for bill-pay with them I had to tell them my employer and salary band, as well as my date of birth.

I'd be broadly in favour of usign PPS number for purposes like this, because of the better quality credit checking that can be done if you have a cross-agency unique identifier in place.

ukoda

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

a direct debit authority, ie the right to take as much money as they want from your bank account at any time they feel like it.

you mean the amount of your bill? at the time its due? with 2 weeks notice. how dare they.

Cuddlesworth

Company's in the US use a similar system. The problem there is when your unique number gets into the wild from shoddy security or simply the worker on the other end of the phone writing it down. You then end up in being hassled by debt collectors and companies about bills that have nothing to do with you. And its your responsibility to prove it wasn't you, spending months cutting through red tape and incompetent employees in billing departments to get them to leave you alone.

Its a rare occurrence over there but not rare enough that I haven't already met 2 yanks that its personally happened to.

plodder

PPS = personal public service number. Key word being public, and only bodies with a statutory right to it should be asking for it, ruling out restaurants etc. Irish Water is entitled to it because they are administering the allowances system on behalf of the state and there is a specific law allowing it. No private company like O2 should be asking for it. If you allow that then you are allowing the restaurant or taxi-driver or god knows what.

drumswan

Grandpa Hassan wrote: »

I really don't see the issue that people have with giving pps numbers. People have just brought into the scaremongering by the indo and others You'd think it was the equivalent of giving over your life savings! I believe that utilities should get have your pps number, to help track people down. We all ultimately pick up the tab for those that leave rented accommodation without paying their bills and leaving no forwarding address.

PM me your name, address, date of birth and PPS number then if youve no problem with it.

Graham

drumswan wrote: »

PM me your name, address, date of birth and PPS number then if youve no problem with it.

Hardly the same is it.

drumswan

Graham wrote: »

Hardly the same is it.

Writing all those details on a piece of paper and sending them to some clown on minimum wage in a call centre somewhere is pretty much the same.

Graham

drumswan wrote: »

Writing all those details on a piece of paper and sending them to some clown on minimum wage in a call centre somewhere is pretty much the same.

So in your head what makes such staff untrustworthy? Is it that someone works in a call centre, or that someone earns the minimum wage

Mrs OBumble

ukoda wrote: »

you mean the amount of your bill? at the time its due? with 2 weeks notice. how dare they.

Sorry, but that's not quite how direct debits work.

When you set up a DD, you tell your bank that the utility (etc) company can take as much money as they want, whenever they want.

The utility (etc) company makes a promise to you that the amount they take will be what is on your bill, and that they'll send you the bill two weeks in advance of the due date.

But there are NO controls to stop them taking a different amount, or at a different time. It all comes down to how much you trust the utility company to tell the truth and to have adequate internal controls so that rogue employees cannot do debit runs and skim the proceeds.

In fact, a classic trick is get customers on direct debit, to put through an unjustified debits run, and then to do move out of the premises and disappear overnight. Where I come from, this was done by many dodgy fitness centre operators - don't know if you had the same problem here.

This is why experienced bank employees often refuse to sign up for direct debits.

ukoda

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Sorry, but that's not quite how direct debits work.

When you set up a DD, you tell your bank that the utility (etc) company can take as much money as they want, whenever they want.

The utility (etc) company makes a promise to you that the amount they take will be what is on your bill, and that they'll send you the bill two weeks in advance of the due date.

But there are NO controls to stop them taking a different amount, or at a different time. It all comes down to how much you trust the utility company to tell the truth and to have adequate internal controls so that rogue employees cannot do debit runs and skim the proceeds.

In fact, a classic trick is get customers on direct debit, to put through an unjustified debits run, and then to do move out of the premises and disappear overnight. Where I come from, this was done by many dodgy fitness centre operators - don't know if you had the same problem here.

This is why experienced bank employees often refuse to sign up for direct debits.

If its a reputable company, this will never happen, and this kinda scam would be incredibly difficult to get away with and to even set up in the first place, Also, under SEPA rules the customer can request a refund of any direct debit and the bank have to oblige. Also companies using direct debits have to comply with the IPSO regulations and the Direct Debit guaruntee. Also before you can accept direct debits as a company you have to apply to a bank to be allowed this and the bank will vett you.

Claiming they can do what they want anytime and that there are no controls is just a bit OTT and sensationalist, board lining on fear mongering

anyway back on topic.....get a new lease with the 3 new occupants

darklighter

ukoda wrote: »

If its a reputable company, this will never happen, and this kinda scam would be incredibly difficult to get away with and to even set up in the first place, Also, under SEPA rules the customer can request a refund of any direct debit and the bank have to oblige. Also companies using direct debits have to comply with the IPSO regulations and the Direct Debit guaruntee. Also before you can accept direct debits as a company you have to apply to a bank to be allowed this and the bank will vett you.

Claiming they can do what they want anytime and that there are no controls is just a bit OTT and sensationalist, board lining on fear mongering

anyway back on topic.....get a new lease with the 3 new occupants

I can think of at least 1 thread on Boards of well-known "reputable companies" processing incorrect (some might use a stronger term) direct debits & the customer having to jump through hoops to try and get money back.

So not all that sensationalist!

ukoda

darklighter wrote: »

I can think of at least 1 thread on Boards of well-known "reputable companies" processing incorrect (some might use a stronger term) direct debits & the customer having to jump through hoops to try and get money back.

So not all that sensationalist!

have a look at the SEPA rules introduced recently, these are what i referred to

Debtors can :

• Use your account to pay a SEPA Direct Debit in any SEPA country
• Instruct your bank to refuse a SEPA Direct Debit
• Prohibit the application of any SEPA Direct Debit to your bank
  accounts
• Specify Creditors who may collect SEPA Direct Debits from your bank
  accounts
• Specify Creditors who may not collect SEPA Direct Debits from your bank
  accounts
• Limit a SEPA Direct Debit collection to a certain amount and/or
  periodicity
• Request a refund for any SEPA Direct Debit within eight weeks from the date
  on which the SEPA Direct Debit was debited from your account. Within the eight
  week period your bank must refund you on a no-questions asked basis.
• Request a refund for any unauthorised SEPA Direct Debit after 8 weeks and
  within 13 months from the date the on which the SEPA Direct Debit was debited
  from your account

http://www.ipso.ie/section/SEPADirectDebit


as you can see, the customer is now well protected, Mrs OBumble claims are OTT

darklighter

ukoda wrote: »

have a look at the SEPA rules introduced recently, these are what i referred to

Debtors can :



http://www.ipso.ie/section/SEPADirectDebit

Those rules aren't worth the paper they are written on

ukoda

darklighter wrote: »

Those rules aren't worth the paper they are written on

yes they are, just because you've heard one sided horror stories from before SEPA was introduced. The banks are obilged to follow these rules.

you can make wild claims if you want, but the rules are there in black and white, and what you claim is purely your opinion.

darklighter

ukoda wrote: »

yes they are, just because you've heard one sided horror stories from before SEPA was introduced. The banks are obilged to follow these rules.

you can make wild claims if you want, but the rules are there in black and white, and what you claim is purely your opinion.

Eh, there have always been rules on the operation of direct debits my friend, rules that wernt always followed.

If you want to be naive enough to trust big businesses to play by the rules, more power to you.

Graham

darklighter wrote: »

Eh, there have always been rules on the operation of direct debits my friend, rules that wernt always followed.

If you want to be naive enough to trust big businesses to play by the rules, more power to you.

Just had a quick nosey through the Ask AIB forum, doesn't look like there's any problem claiming direct debit refunds under the new SEPA rules.

ukoda

darklighter wrote: »

Eh, there have always been rules on the operation of direct debits my friend, rules that wernt always followed.

If you want to be naive enough to trust big businesses to play by the rules, more power to you.

Yes and previous rules have been "wooly" and loosely followed, i agree.
However, These are European rules the banks have to follow. you dont need to trust the company. the bank has to do whats listed above. what part of that isnt clear? Its a new regulation.

ignorance of the regulation doesnt mean its not there.

Th3B1tcH

ESB etc already have ur number if you get the household benfit package but we have a choice to sign up with them
I dont believe any PRIVATE comany such as IW have a right demand it and theres alot concern where our numbers can end up. Much better wud be a box just tick/fill in amount of children you have (can be crosschecked with childbenfit list). Adult lists no need for as each household gets same.
Really no need send our numbers. They dont need them.

Extra adult allowances will be paid with household benfit package to people 4 times a year 25 euro (info for this is here) citizensinformation.ie/en/social_welfare/social_welfare_payments/extra_social_welfare_benefits/household_benefits_package.html

ps not getting into the rights or wrongs of paying for water just dont think anyone should be forced into a contract or handover numbers to a PRIVATE company to me its like UPC demand it just cause cable runs across your roof

ukoda

Th3B1tcH wrote: »

ESB etc already have ur number if you get the household benfit package but we have a choice to sign up with them

No that's not the case, you apply for allowances through the department with your suppliers account number, then the department inferface with The suppliers systems, to say "apply credit" but Suppliers never know the PPS number

Graham

Th3B1tcH wrote: »

to me its like UPC demand it just cause cable runs across your roof

Do the water pipes just pass through your property or are you using the water the pipes deliver?

The_Morrigan

Folks this is A&P....take the direct debit discussions to pm or the banking and insurance forum.

usernamegoes

Even Irish Water can't use PPS numbers to track people for billing purposes, so doubt others will be allowed.

Th3B1tcH

ukoda wrote: »

No that's not the case, you apply for allowances through the department with your suppliers account number, then the department inferface with The suppliers systems, to say "apply credit" but Suppliers never know the PPS number

Sorry stand corrected on that then I was told in Citizens Information before they did (was busy day) girl on desk on her own and it was a quick question I asked after being sortered with something else.

So even they dont need it really makes no sence now why IW would over them.

@Graham lots pipes/cables pass through my property its my choice to avail or not of the sevice which is why I wont get into a debate over charges.
ATM my taxes pay for my water through my local council like everyone elses.