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Manchester United Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread - See Mod Warning in OP, 09/11

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  • Thoughts on the match tomorrow? Going to be another really tough game for Utd tomorrow, tbh I can see Stoke nicking it or a draw being most likely. Good thing is Utd haven't conceded more than one goal in a game for ages now, but at times away from home for me Utd just don't look like scoring goals.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    As do twát and çunt but people can still act as both.
    What about 'axe wound', that's one from where I come from?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,761 ✭✭✭✭RobertKK


    Thoughts on the match tomorrow? Going to be another really tough game for Utd tomorrow, tbh I can see Stoke nicking it or a draw being most likely. Good thing is Utd haven't conceded more than one goal in a game for ages now, but at times away from home for me Utd just don't look like scoring goals.

    Stoke at home is always a tough game as you say, combining with our away form...a draw or a win.
    Hopefully Begovic is not on top form like Hugo Lloris was the last day, United need to be far more clinical in finishing off chances too.
    The stats though are far more positive for United away to Stoke than they are with Spurs away.
    We lost there under Moyes last season, but before that we had three wins and a draw.

    I will go for a win by one goal.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 54,943 ✭✭✭✭Headshot


    I have a bad feeling about the Stoke game. They'll have 11 men behind the ball and kicking the opposition


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,123 ✭✭✭Backstreet Moyes


    Spazdarn wrote: »
    No he does.

    Except your talking sh!te he averages a yellow every 4.5 games. No need make up things to back up your story.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,193 ✭✭✭✭Kerrydude1981


    Headshot wrote: »
    I have a bad feeling about the Stoke game. They'll have 11 men behind the ball and kicking the opposition

    Charlie Adam going around acting the hard man.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,123 ✭✭✭Backstreet Moyes


    Headshot wrote: »
    I have a bad feeling about the Stoke game. They'll have 11 men behind the ball and kicking the opposition

    Have you watched Stoke in recent years. They don't put 11 men behind the ball they scored 4 against arsenal and attacked Chelsea.

    Also besides Adam they don't hack down players that much these days.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,123 ✭✭✭Backstreet Moyes


    Billy86 wrote: »
    That's the thing though, he's not really all that great defensively and as a result Everton have never asked him to defend much for them. As we have seen with Valencia/Young, Louis wants his fullbacks to be good defensively or else he whips out the 3-5-2.

    Not saying I wouldn't be happy to get him (though my main issue would be his transfer fee) but he sometimes gets overrated a lot on boards.

    Like i said Coleman is a bit overrated. He has shown for Ireland when his main job is to defend that he is nothing special at defending. He also has a fairly good strike rate for own goals.

    Himself and Rafael are both great going forward but Rafael can;t stay fit so i would be happy with Coleman.




  • Headshot wrote: »
    I have a bad feeling about the Stoke game. They'll have 11 men behind the ball and kicking the opposition

    I don't think that's fair at all, they try to play a bit of football these days. Obviously that is constrained somewhat by the quality of their players, but they aren't an ultra-defensive team anymore.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 23,495 ✭✭✭✭Billy86


    Nuts102 wrote: »
    Like i said Coleman is a bit overrated. He has shown for Ireland when his main job is to defend that he is nothing special at defending. He also has a fairly good strike rate for own goals.

    Himself and Rafael are both great going forward but Rafael can;t stay fit so i would be happy with Coleman.

    Yeah the fitness issue has become a major one at this point, just have to chuckle though when I see some people claim Coleman is this unbelievable player without holes in his game while also claiming Rafael is some kind of liability who (in terms of ability, not fitness) is not up to it. Wouldn't doubt for a second with many of them that if Coleman were Brazilian and Rafael Irish that their opinions wouldn't be the same.

    Personally I would have RB maybe third on the list of priorities behind CM and CB. We do need extra there of course, but I would take a top end CM and CB with a good RB to compete for the spot over Coleman, and top class CM/CB and the other CM/CB being more of a Blind/Rojo type signing, if that makes sense?


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 553 ✭✭✭phenom


    I don't think that's fair at all, they try to play a bit of football these days. Obviously that is constrained somewhat by the quality of their players, but they aren't an ultra-defensive team anymore.

    I can't see it being any other way other than a defensive style of play with counter attacking their game plan, we have a strong attacking line , one of the best in the league, our problems is our defence and at that we still haven't seen our strongest defence line yet with the players we have due to injuries.

    Without question I would be looking for United to buy a quality holding midfielder in January ,


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,487 ✭✭✭Right Turn Clyde


    Headshot wrote: »
    I have a bad feeling about the Stoke game. They'll have 11 men behind the ball and kicking the opposition

    Very lazy. You obviously haven't seen Stoke play lately. Fair enough, they're not an attacking force, but they're not the Stoke of old, and Mark Hughes will fancy having a go at United's makeshift defence.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,986 ✭✭✭Spazdarn


    Nuts102 wrote: »
    Except your talking sh!te he averages a yellow every 4.5 games. No need make up things to back up your story.

    That's more than enough for the amount of minutes he spends on the pitch!!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,222 ✭✭✭✭Will I Amnt


    Very lazy. You obviously haven't seen Stoke play lately. Fair enough, they're not an attacking force, but they're not the Stoke of old, and Mark Hughes will fancy having a go at United's makeshift defence.

    I don't care what way Stoke play, a team with possibly Shawcross, Adam, Huth, N'Zonzi and Bardsley in it is one to be concerned about.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,219 ✭✭✭✭Pro. F


    Kirby wrote: »
    Wonder if Pro.F is watching the game. The "best DM in the league" is getting the run around at the moment.

    First of all, I didn't say that Britton is the best DM, I said that he has been the best DM over the last few years. Whether he gets back to that level, returning from half a season off with a knee injury at his age, remains to be seen.

    On the game on Monday, yes I was watching it. Britton played well even though he was having to do so much work covering for Shelvey's lazy ass. Maybe if you had paid more attention, instead of posting on boards during the game, you would have seen that for yourself.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,241 ✭✭✭Vic Vinegar


    phenom wrote: »
    Without question I would be looking for United to buy a quality holding midfielder in January ,

    We have two already. I'd be wanting us to sign a box to box type if we were signing a midfielder.

    RB and CB has to be priority though IMO.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 19,889 ✭✭✭✭The Moldy Gowl


    Spazdarn wrote: »
    That's more than enough for the amount of minutes he spends on the pitch!!

    But that stat is per minutes on the pitch?

    He is hardly getting yellows when he isn't playing.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,487 ✭✭✭Right Turn Clyde


    I don't care what way Stoke play, a team with possibly Shawcross, Adam, Huth, N'Zonzi and Bardsley in it is one to be concerned about.

    Every team in the league has players that we should be concerned about, but that doesn't justify attributing to them a style of play that is not theirs. Stoke City, at this moment in time, are not an overtly defensive team, especially when facing the so-called 'big teams'.


  • Moderators, Computer Games Moderators Posts: 15,239 Mod ✭✭✭✭FutureGuy


    I love Rafael but Coleman is a better player by a considerable distance. Sorry.

    If we're shelling 30 for Shaw, an equivalent figure for Coleman would be the least we can expect.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,205 ✭✭✭Lucas Hood


    FutureGuy wrote: »
    I love Rafael but Coleman is a better player by a considerable distance. Sorry.

    If we're shelling 30 for Shaw, an equivalent figure for Coleman would be the least we can expect.

    Shaw is homegrown that always adds on extra.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 15,116 ✭✭✭✭RasTa


    Pro. F wrote: »
    First of all, I didn't say that Britton is the best DM, I said that he has been the best DM over the last few years. Whether he gets back to that level, returning from half a season off with a knee injury at his age, remains to be seen.

    On the game on Monday, yes I was watching it. Britton played well even though he was having to do so much work covering for Shelvey's lazy ass. Maybe if you had paid more attention, instead of posting on boards during the game, you would have seen that for yourself.

    I watched that game to see what he was like and was actually impressed at his passing ability, probably the best on the pitch at moving the ball.

    However as a DM it's a big no no, went missing for 2 of Liverpools goals and generally awful at the defensive side. No surprise he was hauled off after 65mins.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 19,889 ✭✭✭✭The Moldy Gowl


    Lucas Hood wrote: »
    Shaw is homegrown that always adds on extra.

    What about Coleman.

    Don't know much about his club history


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,006 ✭✭✭beno619


    FutureGuy wrote: »
    I love Rafael but Coleman is a better player by a considerable distance. Sorry.

    If we're shelling 30 for Shaw, an equivalent figure for Coleman would be the least we can expect.

    He really isn't though.

    Coleman's only advantage over Rafa is his fitness.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,222 ✭✭✭✭Will I Amnt


    Every team in the league has players that we should be concerned about, but that doesn't justify attributing to them a style of play that is not theirs. Stoke City, at this moment in time, are not an overtly defensive team, especially when facing the so-called 'big teams'.

    I was just commenting on the "kicking players" part. Stoke have hard and aggressive players and United have a ridiculous amount of injury prone players. It's not a good mix.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 553 ✭✭✭phenom


    We have two already. I'd be wanting us to sign a box to box type if we were signing a midfielder.

    RB and CB has to be priority though IMO.


    Our defence this season has been a make shift of young players and midfielders dropping back to fill in the central role, and wing backs,

    Rafael Jones rojo shaw is a good back line when fully fit what we would need is good cover for the positions when there is injuries , I can't see van gaal replacing these.

    In all honesty with players returning for injury and our form being decent the last few games i can't see any big signing in January .


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,205 ✭✭✭Lucas Hood


    What about Coleman.

    Don't know much about his club history

    He moved to Everton at 20/21.
    They've to be trained in England for 3 years before their 21st birthday to be counted as homegrown afaik.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,219 ✭✭✭✭Pro. F


    RasTa wrote: »
    I watched that game to see what he was like and was actually impressed at his passing ability, probably the best on the pitch at moving the ball.

    However as a DM it's a big no no, went missing for 2 of Liverpools goals and generally awful at the defensive side. No surprise he was hauled off after 65mins.

    He's only recently back from a serious knee injury, that's the reason he was taken off after an hour. It's been the same in each game since his return.

    He wasn't at fault for any of the Liverpool goals. He was the only CM properly getting back into a defensive position for a lot of the game, that's why he was having to cover so much ground.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 23,495 ✭✭✭✭Billy86


    beno619 wrote: »
    He really isn't though.

    Coleman's only advantage over Rafa is his fitness.

    His final ball going forward, too. But on the flipside, Rafael has consistently been above him in almost all defensive statistics in recent years - because Coleman simply isn't asked to defend much. People overlook this for some reason, and even with Everton doing very poorly defensively this year still continue to just ignore it. It's odd.

    The £30mn for Shaw argument completely ignores Shaw being homegrown as mentioned, but much more obviously that Shaw is a full seven years younger than Coleman. That's a big, big difference in and of itself.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,219 ✭✭✭✭Pro. F


    Billy86 wrote: »
    His final ball going forward, too. But on the flipside, Rafael has consistently been above him in almost all defensive statistics in recent years - because Coleman simply isn't asked to defend much. People overlook this for some reason, and even with Everton doing very poorly defensively this year still continue to just ignore it. It's odd.

    The £30mn for Shaw argument completely ignores Shaw being homegrown as mentioned, but much more obviously that Shaw is a full seven years younger than Coleman. That's a big, big difference in and of itself.

    Defensive "statistics" are a worthless way of judging defenders. Most good defending means that the player avoids anything that results in a stat being recorded. If you watch Coleman play you can see he's a very good defender, even if he is now playing in a poorly organised team.

    Not that I would be advocating spending huge money on any right-back. Just because we overspent on Shaw, doesn't justify doing it again now imo.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 687 ✭✭✭Dayum


    A lot here are being blinded by romanticism regarding Coleman and all because of the simple fact that he's Irish.

    I get it.

    But in reality neither Coleman nor Rafael are up to scratch.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 19,889 ✭✭✭✭The Moldy Gowl


    Dayum wrote: »
    A lot here are being blinded by romanticism regarding Coleman and all because of the simple fact that he's Irish.

    I get it.

    But in reality neither Coleman nor Rafael are up to scratch.


    Aside from that.

    Rafael when fit and on form is fantastic right back


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,085 ✭✭✭duffman13


    Dayum wrote: »
    A lot here are being blinded by romanticism regarding Coleman and all because of the simple fact that he's Irish.

    I get it.

    But in reality neither Coleman nor Rafael are up to scratch.

    Who us up to scratch in your opinion? Both are better options than Valencia. In the league it's Zabeleta, Ivanovic and maybe Clyne ahead of the rest.

    But Coleman managed to be and in the PFA team of the year so he must be somewhat up to scratch. As a matter of fact I think a lot of Irish are now talking him down because he is Irish and is now beginning to get some acclaim.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,602 ✭✭✭✭Liam O


    Dayum wrote: »
    A lot here are being blinded by romanticism regarding Coleman and all because of the simple fact that he's Irish.

    I get it.

    But in reality neither Coleman nor Rafael are up to scratch.

    Ha!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 23,495 ✭✭✭✭Billy86


    Pro. F wrote: »
    Defensive "statistics" are a worthless way of judging defenders. Most good defending means that the player avoids anything that results in a stat being recorded. If you watch Coleman play you can see he's a very good defender, even if he is now playing in a poorly organised team.

    Not that I would be advocating spending huge money on any right-back. Just because we overspent on Shaw, doesn't justify doing it again now imo.
    I'm not saying he's a bad defender just not as fantastic as some here seem to make out, I am saying he is not asked to do as much defensively at Everton as Rafael has been with us. His primary role is often as an outlet for them to move the ball forward and quickly, and he is extremely good at it - but a worry there would be how that would translate to opponents sitting deeper against us than they do his current team.

    Likewise though, it's not signing him I would have any issue with, it's the price tag that would come with him - if they wanted £25mn (if I recall? We dodged a bullet there!) for Baines who only knows how much they would be looking for, for Coleman who is not only better but younger too.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,219 ✭✭✭✭Pro. F


    Billy86 wrote: »
    I'm not saying he's a bad defender just not as fantastic as some here seem to make out, I am saying he is not asked to do as much defensively at Everton as Rafael has been with us. His primary role is often as an outlet for them to move the ball forward and quickly, and he is extremely good at it - but a worry there would be how that would translate to opponents sitting deeper against us than they do his current team.

    Likewise though, it's not signing him I would have any issue with, it's the price tag that would come with him - if they wanted £25mn (if I recall? We dodged a bullet there!) for Baines who only knows how much they would be looking for, for Coleman who is not only better but younger too.

    He's an excellent full-back, both defensively and going forward. The only legitimate concern about signing him would be price imo.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 23,495 ✭✭✭✭Billy86


    Pro. F wrote: »
    He's an excellent full-back, both defensively and going forward. The only legitimate concern about signing him would be price imo.

    Having watched him for both Everton and Ireland, he definitely is excellent going forward but it's hyperbolic to say he is defensively as well. He's good defensively, but not in the league of a younger Ashley Cole or Lahm who were excellent defensively.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,219 ✭✭✭✭Pro. F


    Billy86 wrote: »
    Having watched him for both Everton and Ireland, he definitely is excellent going forward but it's hyperbolic to say he is defensively as well. He's good defensively, but not in the league of a younger Ashley Cole or Lahm who were excellent defensively.

    Semantic hair splitting.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 23,495 ✭✭✭✭Billy86


    Pro. F wrote: »
    Semantic hair splitting.
    Nope, just pointing out that calling Coleman excellent defensively is indeed hyperbolic and/or setting the bar of excellence to low.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,219 ✭✭✭✭Pro. F


    Billy86 wrote: »
    Nope, just pointing out that calling Coleman excellent defensively is indeed hyperbolic and/or setting the bar of excellence to low.

    And saying you have to be as good as Cole or Lahm in their prime to be called excellent is setting the bar too high.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 15,116 ✭✭✭✭RasTa


    Pro. F wrote: »

    He wasn't at fault for any of the Liverpool goals. He was the only CM properly getting back into a defensive position for a lot of the game, that's why he was having to cover so much ground.



    Scroll to 5.18, although Shelvey is also useless but he losses his man way too easy. I don't think he is a DM


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 23,495 ✭✭✭✭Billy86


    Pro. F wrote: »
    And saying you have to be as good as Cole or Lahm in their prime to be called excellent is setting the bar too high.
    Zabaleta and Ivanovic would set a lower benchmark, and again both are comfortably better defensively than Coleman.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,219 ✭✭✭✭Pro. F


    Billy86 wrote: »
    Zabaleta and Ivanovic would set a lower benchmark, and again both are comfortably better defensively than Coleman.

    No they aren't. They just have better managers who organise their teams properly.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 14,158 ✭✭✭✭hufpc8w3adnk65


    Pro. F wrote: »
    No they aren't. They just have better managers who organise their teams properly.

    So LVG is unorignised??
    Right.........


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 23,495 ✭✭✭✭Billy86


    Pro. F wrote: »
    No they aren't. They just have better managers who organise their teams properly.
    Yes they are, and that is why two separate managers have both had Coleman's defensive responsibilities (where he is good but not excellent) limited in comparison to his attacking ones (where he is excellent), and why Ivanovic and Zabaleta have both looked defensively superior under multiple managers.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,557 ✭✭✭mewe


    I'd be delighted if we got Coleman. We need another RB and he's up there for me.

    He'd be a more intelligent defender than Raf for me but with the two of them we'd have two very good options for RB.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,219 ✭✭✭✭Pro. F


    RasTa wrote: »


    Scroll to 5.18, although Shelvey is also useless but he losses his man way too easy. I don't think he is a DM

    The first problem with that goal was Shelvey pushing up field and then not getting back quick enough, leaving Britton to cover too much space. Then Fernandez didn't tuck in behind Williams when he came out to the ball, if he had he would have been in the area where Lallana received the one-two. Then Shelvey stopped dead instead of chasing Lallana who was running off the back of Britton, although Shelvey probably wouldn't have gotten there, he still should have been trying. Britton didn't do anything wrong on that goal.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,885 ✭✭✭SherlockWatson


    Billy86 wrote: »
    Nope, just pointing out that calling Coleman excellent defensively is indeed hyperbolic and/or setting the bar of excellence to low.

    Hyperbolic implies it's not meant to be taken seriously, you're looking for over exaggerated.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,219 ✭✭✭✭Pro. F


    Billy86 wrote: »
    Yes they are, and that is why two separate managers have both had Coleman's defensive responsibilities (where he is good but not excellent) limited in comparison to his attacking ones (where he is excellent), and why Ivanovic and Zabaleta have both looked defensively superior under multiple managers.

    Coleman had full defensive responsibilities under Moyes. Ivanavic and Zabaleta didn't look defensively superior to Coleman at that time. Martinez's management prevents his players from looking good defensively.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,906 ✭✭✭✭PhlegmyMoses


    I'm with Pro F here (not on the Britton stuff). Coleman is playing under a manager that has consistently struggled to set up a defence. Martinez' Wigan were fecking awful at the back and Everton are headed that way.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,219 ✭✭✭✭Pro. F


    MrMac84 wrote: »
    So LVG is unorignised??
    Right.........

    I was talking about Coleman, not any United player. But I wouldn't be too convinced of LVG's defensive organisational abilities just yet myself.


This discussion has been closed.
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