Entering dairy with no big loans!

Lady lou

Hi,
I am looking for opinions on what I am thinking of doing.
I have 20acres of grass where I keep suckler cows and calf to beef system. As it isn't suitable for crops.
I plan on getting into dairy. I have done up my figures and come to the conclusion that I could afford a secondhand 4/6 unit parlour and 10 dairy cows. The only loan that I might look for would be a stock loan. I have experience in the area and have an interest in dairy and hope to get into it at some stage.
So my question to you's is do you think I'm mad or is it a good idea as I am wanting to get into it at some stage. In order words I want to do it but am I missing the pitfalls?? Thanks.

P.s keeping 10 dairy cows out weighs keeping 10 sucklers by miles!! Hoping to get some good informed posts back. Thanks.

Muckit

The parlour would be your biggest cost l would imagine? Don't worry about fancy paddocks. Your winter housing should also suffice with minimal adaptions.

Have you a shed that you could clear out to fit the parlour or what have you planned?

I'd be very interested to hear about your progress. I think there is just as much possibilities for small setups like this.

The best of luck with it. Nothing ventured nothing gained.

Timmaay

Do you work full time?? How are you going to balance holding down a job and milking twice a day?

_Brian

Have you spoken to a supplier yet.
Lakeland near us are trying to move to filling an artic on two/three collections, I'm wondering how new small entrants will fit this model of milk collection.

There are a few new enterants of similar size that I know of and it will be interesting to see how it goes for them.

Personally I think, particularly for the younger folks it may be wise to wait a year or two and see how this new milk landscape pans out. Like many I'd expect milk prices to fall back a bit at least but by how much is an unknown. It may be hard if you don't have economy of scale to make a sufficient profit.
Maybe if you had part time work or did releif milking you'd be earning enough.

Lady lou

Muckit wrote: »

The parlour would be your biggest cost l would imagine? Don't worry about fancy paddocks. Your winter housing should also suffice with minimal adaptions.

Have you a shed that you could clear out to fit the parlour or what have you planned?

I'd be very interested to hear about your progress. I think there is just as much possibilities for small setups like this.

The best of luck with it. Nothing ventured nothing gained.

adaptions.

Have you a shed that you could clear out to fit the parlour or what have you planned?

I'd be very interested to hear about your progress. I think there is just as much possibilities for small setups like this.

The best of luck with it. Nothing ventured nothing gained.[/quote]

Thanks for your interest muckit. I have a staw storage, straw bedded shed and a slatted unit capable of holding 50cows, where I keep the stock at the minute. I would be putting the parlour into an old stone building. Doing all of the work myself. Might get someone to manouver parlour for me as that gets complicated.

To answer your question Timmay that's not a problem.

And to answer your question Brian, I had a chat with a few processors at the ploughing. One told me to just give them a call and they'll come pick it up.

One thing I am worried about is SCC with old equipment. Am I thinking to much into this.?

Mad4simmental

Fair play to you. Keep us updated on your progress. It would be interesting to see how you go on a low input system like the good oul days!

tanko

I know a few lads milking 18-25 cows. Either the lorry collects at their farm or the lorry parks in the village and the farmers go and meet there.

mf240

Scc wont be a problem if pulsation and vacuum are set up correctly. And palour is wired and bounded properly (stray voltage).

You could easily keep 18 cows on 20 acres. Selling calves in spring and empty cows in autumn and then buy a couple of replacements in spring.

Spend as little as posssible at the start and you can make gradual improvements as you go along. You will probably need some kind of job aswell to make a living but you will hopefully make some of your income from it.

caseman

The loan would only need to be very small with 10 cows.
Did you consider stocking the grazing block with 20 plus cows depending an land quality and renting land for fodder or buy in fodder.
But i think of farm income will still be needed.

Sam Kade

Why would you want a parlour for 10 cows simple tie up stalls pipeline would do.

just do it

Have you subsequent expansion in mind?

Base price

Sam Kade wrote: »

Why would you want a parlour for 10 cows simple tie up stalls pipeline would do.

A neighbour milks 40 cows in a tie up byre with a pipeline. She reckoned that there was no point upgrading to a herringbone. Her sons wanted to put one in a few years ago but she is happy with the system. Hard on the back if you are not used to it.

Sam Kade

Base price wrote: »

A neighbour milks 40 cows in a tie up byre with a pipeline. She reckoned that there was no point upgrading to a herringbone. Her sons wanted to put one in a few years ago but she is happy with the system. Hard on the back if you are not used to it.

40 cows in a byre would drive me mental :eek: 10 or 15 cows wouldn't so bad but when heading towards 20 and above the parlour is the only job for you sanity.

just do it

Sam Kade wrote: »

40 cows in a byre would drive me mental :eek: 10 or 15 cows wouldn't so bad but when heading towards 20 and above the parlour is the only job for you sanity.

I suppose for a year or two while starting up it could be an option. Agree though the saving would end up going to consultants and chiropractors :rolleyes:

mf240

Sam Kade wrote: »

40 cows in a byre would drive me mental :eek: 10 or 15 cows wouldn't so bad but when heading towards 20 and above the parlour is the only job for you sanity.

Milked 44 in one before i built the palour. Not that bad with quite cows.

Sam Kade

just do it wrote: »

I suppose for a year or two while starting up it could be an option. Agree though the saving would end up going to consultants and chiropractors :rolleyes:

Exactly, short term starting off would be ok but long term defiantly not. I know all about it as I started with a bucket plant then a pipeline and ended up converting the byre to a parlour

Sam Kade

mf240 wrote: »

Milked 44 in one before i built the palour. Not that bad with quite cows.

Except all the walking in and out between cows and stooping down. Also getting completely covered in cow hairs

mf240

Sam Kade wrote: »

Except all the walking in and out between cows and stooping down. Also getting completely covered in cow hairs

And the tail across the face.

Base price

Sam Kade wrote: »

Except all the walking in and out between cows and stooping down. Also getting completely covered in cow hairs

Trying to imagine how difficult it is having to deal with a few cow hairs on my clothes every day :rolleyes:

Base price

mf240 wrote: »

And the tail across the face.

Oh Lord....

Bullocks

Base price wrote: »

Hard on the back if you are not used to it.

And wellies crack open fairly often !

Sam Kade

Base price wrote: »

Trying to imagine how difficult it is having to deal with a few cow hairs on my clothes every day :rolleyes:

Try a few hundred I take it you never milked in a byre.

solwhit2

Sam Kade wrote: »

40 cows in a byre would drive me mental :eek: 10 or 15 cows wouldn't so bad but when heading towards 20 and above the parlour is the only job for you sanity.

Its grand once you have quite cows .we only put in the parlour 3 years ago .it was 8 in a line we milked 55 cows in an hour and less this time of a year.the worst part of it was if the c**ts stood down your toes.

Base price

Sam Kade wrote: »

Try a few hundred I take it you never milked in a byre.

Out of context with this thread.
I started off hand milking (in a tie up byre) for my uncle on weekends when I was a young teenager. When he got a bucket plant installed I reckoned that the fella who invented the system should get a noble prize
Out of the proceeds from my 21st birthday, I paid for a pipeline to be installed. At the same time I bought him 2 pbnr 50% HO/BrFR heifer calves and a pbr Je heifer calf from local dairy farmers in my home place in North County Dublin.
A few years later he won an award from Killeshandra/Lakelands for quality milk production.
Oh, I have been slapped in the face with many a ****ty tail over the years

kerrycow

Lady lou wrote: »

And to answer your question Brian, I had a chat with a few processors at the ploughing. One told me to just give them a call and they'll come pick it up.

That's very interesting, I was wondering about doing something similar, along the same scale, and I thought that only the organic buyers would be interested in such small producers

Sam Kade

Base price wrote: »

Out of context with this thread.
I started off hand milking (in a tie up byre) for my uncle on weekends when I was a young teenager. When he got a bucket plant installed I reckoned that the fella who invented the system should get a noble prize
Out of the proceeds from my 21st birthday, I paid for a pipeline to be installed. At the same time I bought him 2 pbnr 50% HO/BrFR heifer calves and a pbr Je heifer calf from local dairy farmers in my home place in North County Dublin.
A few years later he won an award from Killeshandra/Lakelands for quality milk production.
Oh, I have been slapped in the face with many a ****ty tail over the years

Jaysus, I asked for that you must be older than me

HillFarmer

How much could the OP expect from milking 10 cows assuming no loans?

I'm thinking OP if you went down the organic route it might add value to your product. With such a small setup you should try to differentiate yourself in some way shape or form.

Perhaps setup cheese / ice cream extra, might not be suitable for ya

Timmaay

HillFarmer wrote: »

How much could the OP expect from milking 10 cows assuming no loans?

I'm thinking OP if you went down the organic route it might add value to your product. With such a small setup you should try to differentiate yourself in some way shape or form.

Perhaps setup cheese / ice cream extra, might not be suitable for ya

10c/l is a ballpark profit figure, let's assume decent enough yielding cows, at 6500l, that's 6500grand per year. Where the sums stop stacking up in my view is dividing that figure by 600 (cows milked twice a day for 300days), it leaves you with just over 10euro for each milking.

Agreed on the added value products, however be prepared to throw money at this, I know a farmer who uses about 20k litres of milk to make icecream, he had to recently invest 100k in the processing equipment.

bogman_bass

I think somebody needs to play devils advocate here.
at 10 cows you are going to need an off farm income.
Now take it from somebody that has been there, even with small numbers its a strain managing both.

what is your housing like at the moment? With suckler cows you can peg them outside for the winter but that isn't an option with dairy cows. Have you the slurry storage needed?

Have you factored in the price of a milk tank?

And the big question is this: what is the chances of getting more land? in the short to medium term?

20silkcut

bogman_bass wrote: »

I think somebody needs to play devils advocate here.
at 10 cows you are going to need an off farm income.
Now take it from somebody that has been there, even with small numbers its a strain managing both.

what is your housing like at the moment? With suckler cows you can peg them outside for the winter but that isn't an option with dairy cows. Have you the slurry storage needed?

Have you factored in the price of a milk tank?

And the big question is this: what is the chances of getting more land? in the short to medium term?

What sort of money are bulk tanks making?? Surely a second hand one wouldn't cost the earth.

Threads like this drive me nuts dangling the possibility of entering dairying in front of me when I had previously put all notions of it firmly out of my head.

Glanbia had a stand at the ploughing match about entering dairying without milking cows. Did anyone here check it out ??
I had my mind set on being a forage producing farm with a few cattle and the off farm job.

However without doubt the best land utilisation for your own benefit is undoubtedly milking cows or is it???

_Brian

Nobody has Mentioned OAD yet.
Would this be an option allowing OP to secure decent off farm employment.

Obviously OP will either have to get more land under them or off farm income anyway.

How about milking goats on this size of a plot? Would that be more of an option to scale up to make a living??

Greengrass1

20silkcut wrote: »

What sort of money are bulk tanks making?? Surely a second hand one wouldn't cost the earth.

Ive an 1000l one here aswell as a 2200 one both in brilliant order not sure what there worth but it wouldn't be alot. 1000 l tank would be more than ample for 10 cows

sh1tstirrer

_Brian wrote: »

Nobody has Mentioned OAD yet.
Would this be an option allowing OP to secure decent off farm employment.

Obviously OP will either have to get more land under them or off farm income anyway.

How about milking goats on this size of a plot? Would that be more of an option to scale up to make a living??

With milking goats you need to keep them indoors all year round and have at least 200 and find your own market for the milk.

_Brian

sh1tstirrer wrote: »

With milking goats you need to keep them indoors all year round and have at least 200 and find your own market for the milk.

Yes.
But at least facing into this OP has enough land.
Surely if cows can be started on a small scale then goats could too, and there would e room for OP to expand without the need to get more land.

Starting into 10 cows without the land block To expand, I'm afraid I see it as a poor business plan. Say after 3-4 years and OP is making €5k profit, I doubt the banks would even entertain him to borrow money to expand.

Mirror game

I've heard it said, 1 cow per acre for good land...

Is that with or without buying in silage?

In other words if buying enough silage for a 6mth winter how many dairy cows could you keep on 20 acres of excellent quality land, if all calves were sold straight away?

just do it

Mirror game wrote: »

I've heard it said, 1 cow per acre for good land...

Is that with or without buying in silage?

In other words if buying enough silage for a 6mth winter how many dairy cows could you keep on 20 acres of excellent quality land, if all calves were sold straight away?

Excellent quality land & 6 month winter don't go hand in hand. More like 3 months in an average year. These guys get their cows out at calving from early Feb

Mirror game

I'll put it another way, how many dairy cows can you keep per acre on excellent land if buying in forage and replacements and using AI? on an average year

Timmaay

Mirror game wrote: »

I'll put it another way, how many dairy cows can you keep per acre on excellent land if buying in forage and replacements and using AI? on an average year

3-3.6 per ha.

just do it

Mirror game wrote: »

I'll put it another way, how many dairy cows can you keep per acre on excellent land if buying in forage and replacements and using AI? on an average year

In periods of max grass growth I see lads talking of an SR of 3.5 cows /ha on the grazing block. However at this time of year being able to add the aftergrass into your grazing platform allows you to keep the cows out longer but at a lower SR. Same in spring for first 1 or 2 grazing rotations. That based on reseeded land as well I reckon.

Teagasc have a programme that's supposed to help you figure out your farms optimal SR.

Timmaay

Nay, at times of max growth you could easily stock to 5 or even 6 cows per Ha! However that's only for afew weeks in the early summer, so instead stick to 3/3.5 and cut silage then!

milkprofit

U should consider partnership with larger land block
On u 20 acres u could build up stock of cows by bying Hf. Calves

Mirror game

Timmaay wrote: »

3-3.6 per ha.

We'll say 3.3, thats 1.3 per acre I think

I'm currently unemployed but thinking something along the same lines as op

I've a 27 acre block very good land thats not up to much at the moment and have to potential to get between 200K-250K for selling another small parcel of land a good distance away

At 1.3 per acre that would bring me to 36 cows milking would i be mad for even considering it given i'd have to buy/build everything from scratch?

would the land sale cover the shed milking parlour tractor etc I'm under 40 and fully trainedup?
I could also consider renting land near by for rearing calves and making silage

sh1tstirrer

Here's an interesting link, I don't know if it would work though.

How To Make $58,788 Per Year With 20 Cows

milkingonthemoove.blogspot.com/.../ho...

Greengrass1

Makr the most of your land op. Why not milk 20 insteead of 10? Theres no difference in management.
Put all your cows incalf to beef bulls and do a deal with a farmer to buy 4-5 heifers each yr.
Dry cows will be perfect on slats. You dont need to spend anything there.
Put thrm on a straw bed when they arrnt out full time. It will do the finest.
Put in a 10 unit parlour only two rows. You'll have cows in milked and back to paddock in 30 min.
Buy in your silage 200 bales will cover ye.

Keep it simple. Good grass and little meal. Some of the best farmers are keeping 1k per cow

jay gatsby

Once you know it's never going to make you a living fire ahead, yes it can be done if you really want it.

I will just add one little note. Have a think about yesterday evening, Sunday, you've been out and about with family or whatever. Had dinner out, lit the fire when you got home and you can see the wind picking up and the rain blowing in, starting to get rough.

At this point the suckler man is saying, I'll leave the few jobs till tomorrow. The milk man is leaving the fire, heading down the fields to get in the cows, no choice. I was smiling about some of the setup threads on here yesterday when I was driving the cows back down the field, with me and the cows wet and miserable. And I was only helping out a neighbour.

If you want to do it, don't let anything stop you but consider the above for 6 or 7k per year income.

Base price

_Brian wrote: »

Nobody has Mentioned OAD yet.
Would this be an option allowing OP to secure decent off farm employment.

Obviously OP will either have to get more land under them or off farm income anyway.

How about milking goats on this size of a plot? Would that be more of an option to scale up to make a living??

I was talking to a farmer who milks goats and she told me that it costs €65 plus vat to get 1000ltrs of milk transported from her to Tipperary, which is the only processor who is willing to handle that volume. As sh1tstirrer said you need to be milking up on 200 to make it viable.

I don't know anything about contract rearing dairy heifers, other that breezing through some of the posts here on F&F, but would/could that be an option for OP?

Mirror game

Timmaay wrote: »

10c/l is a ballpark profit figure, let's assume decent enough yielding cows, at 6500l, that's 6500grand per year. Where the sums stop stacking up in my view is dividing that figure by 600 (cows milked twice a day for 300days), it leaves you with just over 10euro for each milking.

So a good cow on an average year will make about €650 is this correct? and is this with or without the calf?

Timmaay

Mirror game wrote: »

So a good cow on an average year will make about €650 is this correct? and is this with or without the calf?

My very ballpark figure of overall profit was 10c/l, this would include all milk and stock sales, so with the calf, and with any cull cows. My figure of 6500L average yield was fairly generous, the national average would be alot closer to 5kL. However with only 10 or 20 cows you could afford to go with a higher yielding cow, much less walking etc. Expect to pay more for a good HO with excellent fertility and breeding behind her however!

Sam Kade

Low cost milking setup for starter or rented farm ideal for small herds.

Muckit

Are there any of them in use in lreland? Would seem from the uneducated eye to be a good idea for small herds or those wanting to expand on outfarms.

Excuse my ignorance but when a cow is milked would she be interested to get back in for more nuts? as can't see how they were keeping the cows separated

Sam Kade

Muckit wrote: »

Are there any of them in use in lreland? Would seem from the uneducated eye to be a good idea for small herds or those wanting to expand on outfarms.

Excuse my ignorance but when a cow is milked would she be interested to get back in for more nuts? as can't see how they were keeping the cows separated

They have an electric fence dividing the cows to be milked from the cows going out the gates open out close to the fence and they have a pathway fenced off both sides of the parlour.

You wouldn't see them in Ireland but they wouldn't be too hard to make, maybe have the cows going straight through instead.