MOD Decisions recently - closing and merging threads

Buona Fortuna

Recently a couple of threads I was interested in were either closed or merged. I think it was unnecessary and stifles debate.

The first one was in the HomeBrew forum - I know mean munch of lads in the HBF. http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057296068

An unemployed guy was looking to open a HB shop and asked

I would like to get some facts and figures regarding the amount bought/sold annually in Ireland. Can anyone point me in the right direction where to get this info?

The guy was asking about market research, he wasn't asking for market research. This poster had got what scant information people had and had stopped posting. The conversation had moved on to talk about what usp a shop might have over an online operation. It was quite an interesting discussion, next thing The HillBilly closed the thread saying

Market research is not permitted in these forums. This forum is for discussing home brewing - not for the provision of data for a business startup. Please use the links already provided for your research.

I think this was short sighted and heavy handed.



The next thread was on AH. Someone with 13 children was facing a large water bill. There was discussion about family size and alsorts. Very little about water charges per se. The next thing its dumped (some might say merged) into the water charges mega thread, where any discussion about this situation is rapidly lost.

I just wonder why, no harm was being done from what I could see.

kneemos

Bit over Zealous I'd agree at the moment.
There was another one in AH about someone wanting to publicise a transgender event in Lisdoonvarna(Mistress Maisie I believe)which was moved to the
LGBT Forum,where it was completely ignored.

Vexorg

Did you pm Hillbilly asking about the decision, its quite possible that the thread was reported and at a quick glance could be seen as market research. The bulk of the posts have nothing to do with where to find the Stats the OP was looking for and again a quick read would appear to be answering market research questions.

The 13 children and water charges thread, apart from the expected AH responses about the size of the family, became repetitive, was filling with circular argument and was rapidly becoming a mirror of the mega thread as the usual suspects from both camps shifted over to ensure their opinion was heard. I am surprised it managed to remain unmerged for so long. It had a chance to remain a separate discussion, the blame clearly lies with the posters. These threads are impossible to be kept on track through moderatioin, they grow and move to fast for that. How you stop a thread with water bill in the title from being dominated with Irish water chatter I'm not sure but you could always talk to the mods about restarting the discussion with some sort of a mod warning, I personally cannot see it working.

Being over zealous? How do you define over zealous, is it the home brew thread being closed, the merging of the thread mentioned in the OP closing and merging of threads in general?

Are you being serious commenting about a thread promoting a transgender event being moved from AH to the transgender forum? Do you think it will get the correct sort of attention in ah? Apart from the fact that allowing someone to promote an event is agaist the site rules (certain forums allow flexibility on the rule for their own reasons) do you not think allowing this in after hours might end up in a spam fest ? You need to draw a line somewhere. I really cannot see the issue here can you expand on it?

kneemos

Vexorg wrote: »

Being over zealous? How do you define over zealous, is it the home brew thread being closed, the merging of the thread mentioned in the OP closing and merging of threads in general?

Are you being serious commenting about a thread promoting a transgender event being moved from AH to the transgender forum? Do you think it will get the correct sort of attention in ah? Apart from the fact that allowing someone to promote an event is agaist the site rules (certain forums allow flexibility on the rule for their own reasons) do you not think allowing this in after hours might end up in a spam fest ? You need to draw a line somewhere. I really cannot see the issue here can you expand on it?

You don't have to define "over zealous"I said it appears to be.The purpose of the thread is to debate that presumably?

There were no derogatory comments,in fact the one very vague dismissive remark was been ridiculed in an amusing manner.

If the thread was breaking a rule of some sort why was it moved and not deleted?

Buona Fortuna

Vexorg wrote: »

Did you pm Hillbilly asking about the decision, its quite possible that the thread was reported and at a quick glance could be seen as market research.

Not and start a thread here, no. Now that would be overzealous on my part .

The bulk of the posts have nothing to do with where to find the Stats the OP was looking for and again a quick read would appear to be answering market research questions.

I agree that the thread had moved on from the original post. There was some quite interesting and IMHO useful stuff coming out. No one was conducting market research.

The 13 children and water charges thread, apart from the expected AH responses about the size of the family, became repetitive, was filling with circular argument and was rapidly becoming a mirror of the mega thread as the usual suspects from both camps shifted over to ensure their opinion was heard. I am surprised it managed to remain unmerged for so long. It had a chance to remain a separate discussion, the blame clearly lies with the posters. These threads are impossible to be kept on track through moderatioin, they grow and move to fast for that. How you stop a thread with water bill in the title from being dominated with Irish water chatter I'm not sure but you could always talk to the mods about restarting the discussion with some sort of a mod warning, I personally cannot see it working.

I'm not sure that it was either necessary or worth trying to "keep it on track". I'm not even sure that there was a track to be kept to. People were just chatting. It wasn't doing any harm. I don't imagine anyone from government reviewing these threads for inspiration on the way to go. Least ways I'd certainly hope they don't. Its an internet forum - people chat on it. Some of its worthwhile. Some of it is drivvle.

Shakespeare's Sister

Really annoying when a thread just vanishes instead of being locked, when the topic is otherwise valid (I understand blatantly stupid wind-up threads being deleted).
My understanding is some re-reg trolls get all their posts nuked, so if one of those posts is a thread-starting one, the whole thread disappears, but why not just leave it at the troll being banned?

Vexorg

I am trying to figure out what you mean by over zealous, what act or action do you think is over zealous, the closing of one thread or the merging of another is not over zealous, its not even zealous in my opinion.

I said it appears to be

and

Bit over Zealous I'd agree at the moment.

do not compute.

The purpose of the thread is to debate that presumably?

Yes it is, this is why I responded to the op and to you, I do not understand what you said in relation to the opening post, I was hoping you could expand on it? How is the closing and merging of those threads either zealous or over zealous? Are you including the moving of a thread in this comment too?

Regarding the transgender event, I did not see the thread when it was in after hours, it may well have been a fine upstanding thread like many others. Can you tell me why it should not have been moved to the transgender forum? is that not the best place for promoting a transgender event? separately do you think everyone should be able to promote their event, transgender or not, on afterhours? Why do you think it was moved?

why was it moved and not deleted?

I do not know possibly because

certain forums allow flexibility on the rule

Im really just trying to understand why these actions which have been occuring since there were just 2 forums are are being brought up without talking to the closers, mergers, movers first, without that information we are speculating as to the reasons

Ok there is a reason given for the closure of the home brewing thread, if I was concerned about it and if I felt the decision was incorrect, discussing with the mod would be my first step.

[rambling - no disrespect intended]
I wonder what can be achieved by a feedback thread like these? In a sense its a bit vague, a couple of instances where housekeeping happens and some members are unhappy with said housekeeping.

Are you taking it personally, (some of the language used could be interpreted that way)
Do you think the house keeping was done to annoy anyone
Was the housekeeping just completely wrong?
If you put on the mods hat for a moment, can you not see where she/he might be coming from.
Could it have been a genuine error?
[/rambling]

If you think something about the forums is broken, be clear about it, forget the emotive language and hyperbole, if its broken its broken don't "big" or "exaggerate" (i'm not suggesting that has happened here maybe words don't mean what I think they mean), its diminishes most arguments immediately. keep it simple and clear.

Plenty of examples to back up your argument, and prove your point.

Most important, what is the desired outcome and a workable solution.

I yearn to see good critical feedback.

PS do not take stuff personal, reading this back I could interpret it differently to how it was meant to be interpreted, but that's the internet for you.

Vexorg

@Buona Fortuna

Makes sense to me, Im not sure how that forum works/flows so cannot comment on the nature of the free flow discussions there.

The chat nature of threads is an interesting one, for instance should a mod keep a thread on topic? if so how do you handle free flow chat.

What about personality an anal mod (arnt they all) might be highly organised in all aspects of their life including the moderation and its attending housekeeping responsibility, where as someone like me might just let things go with the flow and my forum is train wreck central (or tumble weed central as it happens).

I think most mods are on pretty much in the middle in reality and given that there are usually more than one mod per forum, you get a greater mix around that middle point, giving the majority of members the experience they expect, but you cannot please everyone no matter what decision is made.

But I do understand what you are saying about allowing or encouraging this free flow conversation, does someone have to make the call on whats on topic/off topic at all?

Vexorg

Shakespeare's Sister wrote: »

Really annoying ...... but why not just leave it at the troll being banned?

There are different reasons, and 9 posts down, (gawd dammit - Buona Fortuna are you trying to improve things here or something?) this thread asked pretty much the same question

Post 2 by the fabulous Buffybot kinda nails it.

The whole thread is worth a read.

kneemos

Vexorg wrote: »

I am trying to figure out what you mean by over zealous, what act or action do you think is over zealous, the closing of one thread or the merging of another is not over zealous, its not even zealous in my opinion.

and do not compute.

Yes it is, this is why I responded to the op and to you, I do not understand what you said in relation to the opening post, I was hoping you could expand on it? How is the closing and merging of those threads either zealous or over zealous? Are you including the moving of a thread in this comment too?

Regarding the transgender event, I did not see the thread when it was in after hours, it may well have been a fine upstanding thread like many others. Can you tell me why it should not have been moved to the transgender forum? is that not the best place for promoting a transgender event? separately do you think everyone should be able to promote their event, transgender or not, on afterhours? Why do you think it was moved?

You may be over thinking a single word in fairness,it's a figure of speech.
Most threads in AH could probably be moved somewhere else if you were pedantic about it,so there is a level of objectivity about the process.
As regarding promoting an event the OP in question wasn't the organiser,just highlighting it's existence.If I started a thread about The Electric Picnic for example I'm sure it would have been fine.
The LGBT Forum obviously wasn't the best place to promote it as it hasn't had a response in three days.

Buona Fortuna

Vexorg wrote: »

There are different reasons, and 9 posts down, (gawd dammit - Buona Fortuna are you trying to improve things here or something?)

.

Yes in my own small way

Post 2 by the fabulous Buffybot kinda nails it.

Depends on which side of the fence you sit. Buffybot gives a sterling defence of the status quo

this thread asked pretty much the same question

As Shakespeare's sister's post yes, but not the same as this thread. Though there is a common theme. I don't like threads I've taken the trouble to comment on, subsequently disappearing (started by a banned re-reg), being merged with some mega thread never to be seen again, or being closed for not very good reasons

The whole thread is worth a read

Maybe. The point ultimately fails because we (ordinary Joe and Joanna Soap) have no access to any stats about Boards and that makes it difficult to argue given the selective nature of the stats that were supplied in that thread.

Buona Fortuna

Vexorg wrote: »

@Buona Fortuna

Makes sense to me, Im not sure how that forum works/flows so cannot comment on the nature of the free flow discussions there.

The chat nature of threads is an interesting one, for instance should a mod keep a thread on topic? if so how do you handle free flow chat.

What about personality an anal mod (arnt they all) might be highly organised in all aspects of their life including the moderation and its attending housekeeping responsibility, where as someone like me might just let things go with the flow and my forum is train wreck central (or tumble weed central as it happens).

I think most mods are on pretty much in the middle in reality and given that there are usually more than one mod per forum, you get a greater mix around that middle point, giving the majority of members the experience they expect, but you cannot please everyone no matter what decision is made.

But I do understand what you are saying about allowing or encouraging this free flow conversation, does someone have to make the call on whats on topic/off topic at all?

I'm assuming that we're talking about HBF here rather than AH. HBF is a quiet forum - IMO it pretty much regulates itself. It is unusual to get much of a back and forth going. In that generally people ask questions and they get answered by one or two people and then later on maybe they'll let you know how it went.

If it had just been another AH drivvle thread I probably wouldn't have started this thread.

nesf

Buona Fortuna wrote: »

I'm assuming that we're talking about HBF here rather than AH. HBF is a quiet forum - IMO it pretty much regulates itself. It is unusual to get much of a back and forth going. In that generally people ask questions and they get answered by one or two people and then later on maybe they'll let you know how it went.

If it had just been another AH drivvle thread I probably wouldn't have started this thread.

The main issue with that thread is that it looks like it was caught rather late after a decent conversation got going. There's always a risk when you lock a thread that you kill what would have been a good thread but most of the rules on this stuff exist because on average it turns out bad when someone comes on looking to do market research and you don't get anything worthwhile out of it for the community whilst the original poster has their research done for free for them.

It's not really a case of an overzealous mod, more of bad timing. The horse had already bolted in that thread.

Buona Fortuna

nesf wrote: »

The main issue with that thread is that it looks like it was caught rather late after a decent conversation got going. There's always a risk when you lock a thread that you kill what would have been a good thread but most of the rules on this stuff exist because on average it turns out bad when someone comes on looking to do market research and you don't get anything worthwhile out of it for the community whilst the original poster has their research done for free for them.

It's not really a case of an overzealous mod, more of bad timing. The horse had already bolted in that thread.

OK. Except doing market research is something like this:

Can you all tell me how many packs of this you use per month.
What colour do you mainly buy?
Do you ever use the pink ones?
What sizes do you prefer?

Surely its not someone honestly asking where he could get such information.

padd b1975

Nothing particularly startling has emerged so far in my humble opinion.

It all reads like pretty standard mod housekeeping to me.

Calhoun

Vexorg wrote: »

I am trying to figure out what you mean by over zealous, what act or action do you think is over zealous, the closing of one thread or the merging of another is not over zealous, its not even zealous in my opinion.

and do not compute.

Yes it is, this is why I responded to the op and to you, I do not understand what you said in relation to the opening post, I was hoping you could expand on it? How is the closing and merging of those threads either zealous or over zealous? Are you including the moving of a thread in this comment too?

Regarding the transgender event, I did not see the thread when it was in after hours, it may well have been a fine upstanding thread like many others. Can you tell me why it should not have been moved to the transgender forum? is that not the best place for promoting a transgender event? separately do you think everyone should be able to promote their event, transgender or not, on afterhours? Why do you think it was moved?

I do not know possibly because

Im really just trying to understand why these actions which have been occuring since there were just 2 forums are are being brought up without talking to the closers, mergers, movers first, without that information we are speculating as to the reasons

Ok there is a reason given for the closure of the home brewing thread, if I was concerned about it and if I felt the decision was incorrect, discussing with the mod would be my first step.

[rambling - no disrespect intended]
I wonder what can be achieved by a feedback thread like these? In a sense its a bit vague, a couple of instances where housekeeping happens and some members are unhappy with said housekeeping.

Are you taking it personally, (some of the language used could be interpreted that way)
Do you think the house keeping was done to annoy anyone
Was the housekeeping just completely wrong?
If you put on the mods hat for a moment, can you not see where she/he might be coming from.
Could it have been a genuine error?
[/rambling]

If you think something about the forums is broken, be clear about it, forget the emotive language and hyperbole, if its broken its broken don't "big" or "exaggerate" (i'm not suggesting that has happened here maybe words don't mean what I think they mean), its diminishes most arguments immediately. keep it simple and clear.

Plenty of examples to back up your argument, and prove your point.

Most important, what is the desired outcome and a workable solution.

I yearn to see good critical feedback.

PS do not take stuff personal, reading this back I could interpret it differently to how it was meant to be interpreted, but that's the internet for you.

I would agree with your sentiment there seems to be one or two with an axe to grind using this forum as a mechanism to air their grievances.

Rather than whisper the mod on the forum to confirm what has happened its straight in here.

One of the items you mentioned is against site rules and was lucky it wasn't a ban. I don't know where folks got the perceptions that the mods are more than human, like most humans they make mistakes and look like they are inconsistent but it could be something as simple as not seeing an offending post in time.

nesf

Buona Fortuna wrote: »

OK. Except doing market research is something like this:

Can you all tell me how many packs of this you use per month.
What colour do you mainly buy?
Do you ever use the pink ones?
What sizes do you prefer?

Surely its not someone honestly asking where he could get such information.

Yeah, I can see that. I was more commenting on the timing alone was a problem in that instance from what I can see.

I'm going to be one of those people who starts by saying "I haven't read the whole thread", sorry

Just with regard to the Irish water thread. I didn't merge it, and I'm not sure who did, however I have merged many, as have the other mods. If we were to leave each thread regarding water charges as standalone threads, there would be nothing else on the front page. It had to be all or nothing, for fairness sake.

Buona Fortuna

Deleted User wrote: »

I'm going to be one of those people who starts by saying "I haven't read the whole thread", sorry

Shameful

Just with regard to the Irish water thread. I didn't merge it, and I'm not sure who did, however I have merged many, as have the other mods. If we were to leave each thread regarding water charges as standalone threads, there would be nothing else on the front page. It had to be all or nothing, for fairness sake.

Fair enough. I suppose my main moan was about the HBF thread and when this one disappeared too I lumped them into a Super Merged Moan

The point about the 13 kids thread was there was very little discussion about water charges per se, and more how he got where he was and the merits of having 13 children, would sex still be any fun after 13 kids, and blah, blah.

Just that dumping it into the Supa "All things Irish Water" just makes any other discussion impossible. Don't get me wrong I can see the plank Mods walk but the thread may have well be deleted.

The Hill Billy

Just seeing this now & as the HBF thread is now noted to be of value I have reopened it. @OP - FYI, had you PM'd me it would have been reopened a damn sight quicker as I don't read every thread here on a daily basis.

However, I have reiterated my warning about market research. It is forbidden & posters usually get banned for it. Just because someone says they are unemployed does not give them a 'get out of jail free' card for not adhering to the site rules. If we permitted market research in the forums it would drown out the decent discussions.

Honestly, in this instance I would have expected that trade magazines, business start-up/support organizations would be a better source of the info that the OP was seeking in that thread. The forum is for home-Brewers, not Entrepreneurs.

tHB

Buona Fortuna

The Hill Billy wrote: »

Just seeing this now & as the HBF thread is now noted to be of value I have reopened it.

Thank you. Although I think it was only me that said so but thanks anyway.

@OP - FYI, had you PM'd me it would have been reopened a damn sight quicker as I don't read every thread here on a daily basis.

Thanks again and I was aware of that. However pm'ing you would not have addressed the other thread and also would not have addressed the overall issue that I feel that these threads were closed or merged too quickly. There was a discussion going on, that wasn't doing anyone any harm.

Its not as if there is ever a lot of trouble in HBF, unless someone hits the jackpost, brews a beer of 20% ABV, drinks the lot and then comes online to tell everyone about it.:)

However, I have reiterated my warning about market research. It is forbidden & posters usually get banned for it. Just because someone says they are unemployed does not give them a 'get out of jail free' card for not adhering to the site rules. If we permitted market research in the forums it would drown out the decent discussions.

Agreed, but I don't think this was market research. The guy asked other brewers how he'd get the information. He didn't ask everyone to complete a questionaire.

Honestly, in this instance I would have expected that trade magazines, business start-up/support organizations would be a better source of the info that the OP was seeking in that thread.

Yes and that would have been a useful post to the thread

The forum is for home-Brewers, not Entrepreneurs.

And if those entrepreneurs are also brewers?

The Hill Billy

As long as they keep the entrepreneurial stuff out of the forum & stick to the brewing that is fine.

Regardless of what you feel about what is or isn't market research - the forum is for discussing home brewing & does not exist for any Tom, Dick or Harry to come & elicit info from boards.ie's user base to start a commercial enterprise.

While this may seem to be overly strict to you & others, if we allow one commercial enterprise to use the forum for research - we must allow all, & that is not what the forum is about.

tHB