Collided with young guy who was stepping off bus

micar

Cycling home for work this evening in the lashing rain.

Went around Harts Corner from Phibsboro over to Glasnevin onto the Botanic Road.

There was a bus ahead of me stopped in the traffic about 20-25m from before the bus stop. As I was coming up to the bus, he allowed a young girl get off the bus and right into the cycle lane. Pulled on the brakes to make sure I would not hit her. About 2 seconds later young guy leap out of the bus right into my path and we collided. Luckily, i was able to swerve and I just shouldered him.

The bus driver had not pulled over and was no indicating.

I turned around to shouted at the bus driver. I did not take the bus number ( would have been either 9, 83 or 140) or licence plate number.

I spoke to the guy I hit. He was maybe 15/16. He was alright but a little shocked. I told him that it was not his fault and that the driver should never have allowed them get off there.

This happened around 4.50pm this evening. I am planning to call Dublin Bus to make a complaint. I suppose they would able to determine what driver was there at that time.

ProudDUB

I'd say on a night like tonight, you'd have a lot of people badgering drivers to let them get off early, to save themselves a longer walk in the rain. Or taking advantage of the drivers being nice and unadvisedly asking people if they want to get off before the stop, to give them a shorter walk. I know that I've been guilty of doing both. I'd say we all have. But it shouldn't be happening, as it is unsafe for cyclists.

I disagree that it wasn't the young lads fault. It was his fault imo, as well as the drivers. Even if the driver was ok with it, he shouldn't have gotten off the bus at an unauthorized stop. At 15/16, he's old enough to know that you get on & off buses at designated stops and not random spots along the way. He also should have looked around to make sure it was safe, before he got off the bus.

Carawaystick

ProudDUB wrote: »

I'd say on a night like tonight, you'd have a lot of people badgering drivers to let them get off early, to save themselves a longer walk in the rain. Or taking advantage of the drivers being nice and unadvisedly asking people if they want to get off before the stop, to give them a shorter walk. I know that I've been guilty of doing both. I'd say we all have. But it shouldn't be happening, as it is unsafe for cyclists.

I disagree that it wasn't the young lads fault. It was his fault imo, as well as the drivers. Even if the driver was ok with it, he shouldn't have gotten off the bus at an unauthorized stop. At 15/16, he's old enough to know that you get on & off buses at designated stops and not random spots along the way. He also should have looked around to make sure it was safe, before he got off the bus.

Yeah the lad of 15 or 16 is responsible alright, it's not the fault of the competent and cpc holding driver at all...

ProudDUB

Carawaystick wrote: »

Yeah the lad of 15 or 16 is responsible alright, it's not the fault of the competent and cpc holding driver at all...

I take it you missed the part where I clearly said:

"It was his fault imo, as well as the drivers."

Mrs OBumble

Carawaystick wrote: »

Yeah the lad of 15 or 16 is responsible alright, it's not the fault of the competent and cpc holding driver at all...

If the guy was 5 or 6, I'd agree with you.

But by 15 or 16, human beings should have learned enough sense to look where they are going - yes, and that means before they step off a bus into a traffic path or even a footpath.

foggy_lad

Drivers are told never open the doors between stops. This is not something that is told to them in the canteen while they listen to Liveline or while they are running out the door to get their bus. It is trained into them and emphasis is placed on the risk of losing their job if caught by the many inspectors roaming around on foot as well as in cars.

It is not something they could reasonably forget so in my opinion the driver is 100% at fault.

There would have been no collision if the doors had not been opened between stops!

anto3473

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

If the guy was 5 or 6, I'd agree with you.

But by 15 or 16, human beings should have learned enough sense to look where they are going - yes, and that means before they step off a bus into a traffic path or even a footpath.

Not sure on the law but this is sounds like common sense. As far as I see it all 3 are at fault to some extent, some more than others. I think the pedestrian takes most of the blame here, but as with most accidents it takes more than one person to contribute to a screw up.

I cycle myself and my only real accident was when a pedestrian stepped out in front of me from between parked cars in a cycle lane and just stood there like a fool while I braked, shouted and rang the bell.

I didn't hit her but went over the handlebars. Similar situation idiot person materializes out of nowhere bike goes crash and things don't end well.

Who was at fault in my case as I see it now:

Pedestrian I nearly hit: Yes. Complete moron. 50% of the blame at least, should also be instructed not to reproduce.

Owners of parked cars, parked half on footpath half on cycle lane [2 penalty point offence for them anyway]. 25% of the blame. They allowed situation to happen.

Me: Going too fast, not paying enough attention, late for work. 24.99% of the blame.

Other cyclists: Also go too fast down that hill, making me match their speed, 0.01% to blame, since I know that's not a real excuse.

I'd imagine it's likely what happened to the OP here is similar except you could replace "owners of parked" cars with "bus driver"

anto3473

What I was trying to say here is the bus driver was kind of irresponsible here but not all to blame. Have you ever been let off a bus early in a hurry by a nice driver who trusted that you wouldn't leap into oncoming traffic? It's great when it happens but in this case the driver opened the door to a lemming.

The OP is not blameless either and should expect these sort of things, it's about as common in cycling as a random tree branch, pothole or broken bottle in your path, you need to be able to stop quickly sometimes, especially at junctions.

foggy_lad

anto3473 wrote: »

What I was trying to say here is the bus driver was kind of irresponsible here but not all to blame. Have you ever been let off a bus early in a hurry by a nice driver who trusted that you wouldn't leap into oncoming traffic? It's great when it happens but in this case the driver opened the door to a lemming.

The OP is not blameless either and should expect these sort of things, it's about as common in cycling as a random tree branch, pothole or broken bottle in your path, you need to be able to stop quickly sometimes, especially at junctions.

IMHO the blame lies 100% with the driver because had the door not been opened there would be no issue and no collision. I would say the same for a Taxi driver whose passenger opens the door in front of a cyclist because it is the drivers responsibility to watch for this and to pull far enough into the kerb that cyclists can't pass between their taxi and the kerb..

ProudDUB

foggy_lad wrote: »

Drivers are told never open the doors between stops. This is not something that is told to them in the canteen while they listen to Liveline or while they are running out the door to get their bus. It is trained into them and emphasis is placed on the risk of losing their job if caught by the many inspectors roaming around on foot as well as in cars.

It is not something they could reasonably forget so in my opinion the driver is 100% at fault.

There would have been no collision if the doors had not been opened between stops!

How can the driver be 100% at fault? No one forced the passenger to get off the bus at an unauthorized stop. As far as we know, he did it of his own free will. The only way that the lad could be absolved from any share of the blame, was if he was was unfamiliar with the route, he was told by the driver that this was the stop, the lad took him at his word & got off the bus, presuming that it was the correct thing to do.

Unless that happened, the passenger has to take some share of the blame. The bus driver gets most of it, but the passenger has to accept some level of personal responsibility for his own actions.

As to drivers opening the doors early, it happens frequently on the route I take most often. When I am coming home from town, I get off at a stop just after a busy main road. The majority of passengers would be walking down that main road after they get off the bus. When the bus is stopped at the lights at that junction, the driver often opens the doors to let passengers out early. Sometimes, he is asked to do it, sometimes he just offers, but either way, it still happens.

foggy_lad

ProudDUB wrote: »

How can the driver be 100% at fault? No one forced the passenger to get off the bus at an unauthorized stop. As far as we know, he did it of his own free will. The only way that the lad could be absolved from any share of the blame, was if he was was unfamiliar with the route, he was told by the driver that this was the stop, the lad took him at his word & got off the bus, presuming that it was the correct thing to do.

Unless that happened, the passenger has to take some share of the blame. The bus driver gets most of it, but the passenger has to accept some level of personal responsibility for his actions.

As to drivers opening the doors early, it happens frequently on the route I take most often. When I am coming home from town, I get off at a stop just after a busy main road. The majority of passengers would be walking down that main road after they get off the bus. When the bus is stopped at the lights at that junction, the driver often opens the doors to let passengers out early. Sometimes, he is asked to do it, sometimes he just offers, but either way, it still happens.

By opening the doors the driver is telling the passengers that this is an authorised and safe place to alight because a professional driver would not allow people on or off the bus at any unsafe location so must take full responsibility for their(the driver's) actions.

Yous are both alright. It's a pity that you're worrying about it.

Sclosages

Cycling 101. A stalled bus may have passengers alighting.

ProudDUB

Anyone with an ounce of cop on knows that you don't get on and off buses at random stops. If the driver decides to save time, by letting people get off the bus when he stuck in traffic (thereby negating the need to stop at official stops) that is wrong of him to do so. But on the other side, if a passenger willingly colludes with such behaviour, then they need to assume some share of the blame when an accident like the OP's happens. Not all it by any means, but certainly some of it.

meathstevie

micar wrote: »

Cycling home for work this evening in the lashing rain.

Went around Harts Corner from Phibsboro over to Glasnevin onto the Botanic Road.

There was a bus ahead of me stopped in the traffic about 20-25m from before the bus stop. As I was coming up to the bus, he allowed a young girl get off the bus and right into the cycle lane. Pulled on the brakes to make sure I would not hit her. About 2 seconds later young guy leap out of the bus right into my path and we collided. Luckily, i was able to swerve and I just shouldered him.

The bus driver had not pulled over and was no indicating.

I turned around to shouted at the bus driver. I did not take the bus number ( would have been either 9, 83 or 140) or licence plate number.

I spoke to the guy I hit. He was maybe 15/16. He was alright but a little shocked. I told him that it was not his fault and that the driver should never have allowed them get off there.

This happened around 4.50pm this evening. I am planning to call Dublin Bus to make a complaint. I suppose they would able to determine what driver was there at that time.

If you replace bicycle with motorcycle nobody would for a moment argue who's fault it is the collision happened. Sorry OP but you were undertaking a line of static vehicles including a bus. Rule number one about busses standing still is that it's highly likely someone is going to get on or off it.

In fairness to you the person getting off the bus could have easily had a look down the cycle lane as well.

Johngoose

Just as well nobody hit a cyclist with their car, or they'd get jail and it wouldn't matter what the car driver's excuse was.

Carawaystick

The op isn't clear here but it appears the bus driver also left the scene of an accident here too

micar

Carawaystick wrote: »

The op isn't clear here but it appears the bus driver also left the scene of an accident here too

The traffic was all built up. The bus wasn't going anywhere.

I was not hurt, the young kid wasn't hurt and the driver was made very aware that it could have been more serious.

I cycled on home.

With regard to the other comments. I was going to say to the kid that he should have looked left before getting off the the bus. I decided against this. My view on it is that the bus driver made the initial error and therefore 100% liable on this.

It was raining very heavily, brakes on bikes don't work as well.

micar

anto3473 wrote: »

you need to be able to stop quickly sometimes, especially at junctions.

In heavy rain, the stopping distance on a bike is much much longer. This section of road is also on slight decline, So i was cycling downhill in the rain.

Luckily, I did just tighten the brakes last week.

If it was dry and the same thing happened, I might have been able to stop in time.

Also this was not at a junction.

this is where it happened.



https://www.google.ie/maps/@53.3679245,-6.2702408,3a,75y,44.58h,91.95t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sQ2-QDZTuuvbvSXIMCmz9mw!2e0

V.W.L 11

Bottom line is never open the doors for anyone unless its a designated /official stop, then if something does happen the driver can't be blamed once he or she goes by the book, I operate that way and don't care what the passenger says, at the end of the day I have a duty of care to my passengers

gbob

Paraphrasing the RTA, "It is an offense to permit a person on or off a public service vehicle other than at authorised stop". It is also a contravention of the licence conditions and could result in the licence being revoked. At least once a day I refuse such a request to allow someone off or on in such circumstances, but as said above, the duty of care means safety takes priority over convenience. I'm almost the only driver in my depot that refuses to let people off away from a stop, and the amount of abuse I get from both passengers and colleagues is ridiculous. And no, we are not told not to do it by the employer, there is no written instruction or information given regarding this, but if a driver asks he would be told to use his/her discretion. The lack of professionalism and ignorance of the laws relating to public transport shown by passengers/drivers/management is the reason incidents like this happen.

100% drivers fault.

VG31

I witnessed that incident. It was the bus driver's fault; he opened the doors well before the stop and was not pulled in to the curb at all. There was a 9 at the stop so he could not pull in yet.
I didn't see the bus reg or number but it was the 83 that leaves Kimmage at 15:45.

ProudDUB wrote: »

I disagree that it wasn't the young lads fault. It was his fault imo, as well as the drivers. Even if the driver was ok with it, he shouldn't have gotten off the bus at an unauthorized stop. At 15/16, he's old enough to know that you get on & off buses at designated stops and not random spots along the way. He also should have looked around to make sure it was safe, before he got off the bus.

I have to disagree with that, I have never seen someone not get off when the driver opens the doors early. Even though most people know they shouldn't it seems rude to refuse to get off. It was driver's fault 100%.

foggy_lad

ProudDUB wrote: »

Anyone with an ounce of cop on knows that you don't get on and off buses at random stops. If the driver decides to save time, by letting people get off the bus when he stuck in traffic (thereby negating the need to stop at official stops) that is wrong of him to do so. But on the other side, if a passenger willingly colludes with such behaviour, then they need to assume some share of the blame when an accident like the OP's happens. Not all it by any means, but certainly some of it.

The passenger is not willingly colluding though because by opening the doors and telling people they can get on/off the bus between stops the driver is in effect creating a new albeit dangerous authorised stop. The passengers are not to be concerned with the ins and outs of driver training but must follow the bye-laws and conditions of carriage and may only enter or leave the bus at "authorised" stops. In this instance the driver by opening the doors authorised the use of that place as a bus stop.

V.W.L 11 wrote: »

Bottom line is never open the doors for anyone unless its a designated /official stop, then if something does happen the driver can't be blamed once he or she goes by the book, I operate that way and don't care what the passenger says, at the end of the day I have a duty of care to my passengers

^^^^ 100% correct and not only do you have duty of care to passengers and the public but you also have a responsibility to yourself and any family you might have to keep your job and income!

Red Kev

All 3 are partially at fault.

1. Driver. The driver was trying to do the young lad a favour, I think that's OK. The driver should have checked his mirrors and advised the lad to look before get off safely. Ok, the regs state the driver shouldn't open the doors, a few months ago I was on a bus in Rathmines, it got stopped for an hour due to an accident 60 metres ahead. We were 20 metres from a bus stop, the driver wouldn't open the doors, and TBH we were mightily p1ssed off with him.

2. Young lad should have looked left before getting off, so he's partly responsible.

3. Cyclist should have been cycling in a manner where an emergency stop is possible, so they are also partially to blame, cyclist admitted that their braking performance was worse than usual. Yes, the cyclist wants to get home out of the rain, but caution should be exercised. For me the biggest problem in the rain is people with umbrellas, they tend to hide under the bloody things and not look. Always cycle defensively where necessary.

In short, a minor incident, (thankfully), nobody is even 50% responsible IMO and all three should learn from it.

Anybody who says the driver is 100% responsible for the accident can't be serious.

foggy_lad

Red Kev wrote: »

All 3 are partially at fault.

1. Driver. The driver was trying to do the young lad a favour, I think that's OK. The driver should have checked his mirrors and advised the lad to look before get off safely. Ok, the regs state the driver shouldn't open the doors, a few months ago I was on a bus in Rathmines, it got stopped for an hour due to an accident 60 metres ahead. We were 20 metres from a bus stop, the driver wouldn't open the doors, and TBH we were mightily p1ssed off with him.

Driver should have contacted the control room and sought permission to turn into the kerb and allow people to get off, normally in such situations the driver or other employee if available will stand at the door watching for cyclists and mopeds etc while people step off onto the road and walk to the path.

2. Young lad should have looked left before getting off, so he's partly responsible.

He should not have been allowed off the bus at all so anything he does or does not do after the doors have opened is 100% on the driver! The driver is 100% responsible for his safety and for the safety of any cyclist that he might hit when he alights at any place that is not an official stop.

3. Cyclist should have been cycling in a manner where an emergency stop is possible, so they are also partially to blame, cyclist admitted that their braking performance was worse than usual. Yes, the cyclist wants to get home out of the rain, but caution should be exercised. For me the biggest problem in the rain is people with umbrellas, they tend to hide under the bloody things and not look. Always cycle defensively where necessary.

The driver is 100% responsible for the hazard placed in the path of the cyclist. most people will expect pedestrians to walk across streets between cars but will not be expecting people to be stepping off buses because it is illegal and no professional driver would risk their job and livelihood.

In short, a minor incident, (thankfully), nobody is even 50% responsible IMO and all three should learn from it.

Anybody who says the driver is 100% responsible for the accident can't be serious.

Now imagine that both the cyclist and passenger hit the ground badly and both had serious"life changing" head injuries or one or both were killed. is the driver responsible then? I think a charge causing death by dangerous driving might be brought against the driver.

AlekSmart

VG31 wrote: »

I witnessed that incident.

VG31,could you elaborate just a tad on your position etc,were you ON the bus in question....just for clarity ?

VG31

AlekSmart wrote: »

VG31,could you elaborate just a tad on your position etc,were you ON the bus in question....just for clarity ?

Yes, I was on the bus.

foggy_lad

AlekSmart wrote: »

VG31,could you elaborate just a tad on your position etc,were you ON the bus in question....just for clarity ?

AlekSmart you as a bus driver may be able to give an answer to my question, is there any situation in normal operation of a Dublin bus vehicle where the driver is allowed to open the doors while stopped in traffic and let people on or off the bus(whether they ask or not)?

jaymcg91

I was on the bus yesterday and the bus driver told me to get off, quite a bit earlier than the next stop (which is where I wanted to get off - I had to walk further to my house in the rain from getting off where he told me to). I didn't really know if I should say no or just get off, so I did.

V.W.L 11

foggy_lad wrote: »

AlekSmart you as a bus driver may be able to give an answer to my question, is there any situation in normal operation of a Dublin bus vehicle where the driver is allowed to open the doors while stopped in traffic and let people on or off the bus(whether they ask or not)?

I can only speak for myself here but as a bus driver myself I know that in a normal situation if I open the doors at a place that is not an official stop then I can A. Be sued if an injury occurred and B. Be issued with a lovely document called a P45

n97 mini

IMO there are two issues here. Driver let off passenger where he shouldn't have. Case closed.

Second is cyclist cycling too fast to stop up inside of a stopped bus and hits pedestrian. As others have pointed out if it had been a motorised vehicle travelling too fast hitting the pedestrian it would be case closed.

AlekSmart

micar wrote: »

In heavy rain, the stopping distance on a bike is much much longer. This section of road is also on slight decline, So i was cycling downhill in the rain.

Luckily, I did just tighten the brakes last week.

If it was dry and the same thing happened, I might have been able to stop in time.

Also this was not at a junction.

this is where it happened.

https://www.google.ie/maps/@53.3679245,-6.2702408,3a,75y,44.58h,91.95t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sQ2-QDZTuuvbvSXIMCmz9mw!2e0

AS a matter of interest,was there any event going on in the Green Space beside the Sunnybank at the time ?

micar

AlekSmart wrote: »

AS a matter of interest,was there any event going on in the Green Space beside the Sunnybank at the time ?

Not that I recall. But there was something going on earlier in the week. I did some tents pitched up there. I think it was charity sleep over.

VG31

AlekSmart wrote: »

AS a matter of interest,was there any event going on in the Green Space beside the Sunnybank at the time ?

There were some tents there and signs saying something like: 'Government build more houses for families'.

AlekSmart

foggy_lad wrote: »

AlekSmart you as a bus driver may be able to give an answer to my question, is there any situation in normal operation of a Dublin bus vehicle where the driver is allowed to open the doors while stopped in traffic and let people on or off the bus(whether they ask or not)?

If you are looking for Hard & Fast rules,you'd have to seek out the Road Traffic Acts and trawl through them.

As to operating the door's,then the prime concern would be,is it SAFE to do so.

Generally I try to operate the Doors ONLY at Bus Stops.

However,it would be a very rare day that I can address any more than 50% of my allocated and marked Bus Stops in the recommended manner.

As a result I then have to attempt the Safest plan B,which,for me entails seeking the next stretch of clear Footpath on which to deposit my passengers.

In slow moving traffic,by far and away the most exchange I have with passengers is of the "Throw uz out there Bud" variety,nearly all of which results in a No,followed by negative vibes from the offended passenger.

Equally,having left a Stop,it is my policy NOT to reopen the doors for latecomers...the reality being if you are knocking on the door,it's because it's CLOSED.

Whether anybody likes it or not,people will,for a wide variety of reasons,some mundane,some malicious and some genuine emergencies,try to leave the bus in non-approved locations.

Dealing with that is part and parcel of the Job,generally speaking it works without a hitch,and of course when it does go wrong,there are repercussions,but life cannot always be scripted and directed to plan.

It is noteworthy that one of the prime reasons behind the return to peak-time open platform use in the LT Class "Borisbus" in London was an increasing number of disagreements and attempted assaults as a result of passengers being refused departure in Central London's heavily traffic'd zone.

Boris himself described it as returning "Freedom of choice" to Bus commuters,with c.300 open-platform LT's now in everyday service,it is obviously popular too judging from my own observations.

One thing which has to be chllenged is the 100% allocation of blame,something which is rare in this world,and which in this particular case,I would be quite confident would not occur.

AlekSmart

The reason I enquired about the Green Space at the Incident Site,is the presence of a "Homless Protest" relating to the adjacent Sunnybank hotel.

http://www.thejournal.ie/edel-maher-homeless-dublin-hotel-1699174-Sep2014/

The presence of distractions,whether to Drivers,Cyclists or Pedestrians can impact upon events in the vicinity.

I note that there is a small,but perhaps,significant differentation between the perceptions of the Cyclist involved and the Witness in relation to this Protest.

Firstly,the person who witnessed the incident:

VG31
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlekSmart View Post

AS a matter of interest,was there any event going on in the Green Space beside the Sunnybank at the time ?

There were some tents there and signs saying something like: 'Government build more houses for families'.

Then,the observations of the cyclist....

micar

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlekSmart View Post:
AS a matter of interest,was there any event going on in the Green Space beside the Sunnybank at the time ?

Not that I recall. But there was something going on earlier in the week. I did some tents pitched up there. I think it was charity sleep over.

I'm far from being Legally Qualified,but I have over the years been allowed a little insight into how Road Traffic cases are decided upon in Courts,particularly if there are significant damages at stake.

Even from the slight variation of those two responses alone,the 100% responsible element is off the table and it's down to apportioning,agreeing and settling....Horsetrading,in other words.

Thankfully,in this case,nobody was injured and at best,all of the participents,learned something from it all....Life itself is full of this type of thing...It's how we develop and progress as a society,by learning lessons and applying what we learn

micar

AlekSmart wrote: »

The reason I enquired about the Green Space at the Incident Site,is the presence of a "Homless Protest" relating to the adjacent Sunnybank hotel.

http://www.thejournal.ie/edel-maher-homeless-dublin-hotel-1699174-Sep2014/

The presence of distractions,whether to Drivers,Cyclists or Pedestrians can impact upon events in the vicinity.

I note that there is a small,but perhaps,significant differentation between the perceptions of the Cyclist involved and the Witness in relation to this Protest.

Firstly,the person who witnessed the incident:




Then,the observations of the cyclist....



I'm far from being Legally Qualified,but I have over the years been allowed a little insight into how Road Traffic cases are decided upon in Courts,particularly if there are significant damages at stake.

Even from the slight variation of those two responses alone,the 100% responsible element is off the table and it's down to apportioning,agreeing and settling....Horsetrading,in other words.

Thankfully,in this case,nobody was injured and at best,all of the participents,learned something from it all....Life itself is full of this type of thing...It's how we develop and progress as a society,by learning lessons and applying what we learn

To be honest, i was unsure why that questions was asked.

This incident happened a good distance before the grass patch.

The tents were earlier in the week. I drove by there this morning and I did not notice the tents.

The tents were pitched over against the billboard and not on the close to the wall. When I saw them earlier in the week, it was not until I was at the entrance of the hotel that I saw the tents.

When this incident occurred my focus on myself, the bus driver and the guy I hit.

When I am on the bike, i focus on the road. I watch out for what others are going in front of me - this included drivers, cyclists and pedestrians.

VG31

AlekSmart wrote: »

The reason I enquired about the Green Space at the Incident Site,is the presence of a "Homless Protest" relating to the adjacent Sunnybank hotel.

http://www.thejournal.ie/edel-maher-homeless-dublin-hotel-1699174-Sep2014/

The presence of distractions,whether to Drivers,Cyclists or Pedestrians can impact upon events in the vicinity.

I note that there is a small,but perhaps,significant differentation between the perceptions of the Cyclist involved and the Witness in relation to this Protest.

That protest was over by that time yesterday. There were no tents or anything, they were gone since before the incident.

AlekSmart

Before anybody gets TOO heated,I'm only engaging here to illustrate how these things can (and do) develop in investigative terms....

Posted By Micar: The tents were pitched over against the billboard and not on the close to the wall. When I saw them earlier in the week, it was not until I was at the entrance of the hotel that I saw the tents.

When this incident occurred my focus on myself, the bus driver and the guy I hit.

Equally,I note very little mention of the Girl who alighted first,could this be,I wonder,and indication that the Younger Lad,made a leap for it after he saw his opportunity behind the Girl ?

One of the golden rules of Bus Operation which I adhere to,is ALWAYS look beyond the person who is closest to you,for example that little old lady meekly knocking on the door after you've left the stop..."Take pity on a little old lady Mr Busman..."...once the door opens to allow little old lady on,the young lad who has missed his stop then see's his opportunity and leaps out into the path of Concorde or whatever...Can happen,does happen and barring executions will happen wherever there is Human Involvement.

Arguing of the specifics of alleged incidents on boards generally drifts off in many directions.

My preference is for those who consider it merits a complaint,to make it to the relevant authority,in writing,and let's know how it goes ?

monument

AlekSmart wrote: »

One thing which has to be chllenged is the 100% allocation of blame,something which is rare in this world,and which in this particular case,I would be quite confident would not occur.

Indeed, 100% blame is more and more seen as unlikely.

But in the OP's story the bus driver made mistakes, which are against his company's policy and likely the law too, which set off a chain reaction of the passages jumping off without looking.

The op on his bike breaks for the first passenger and hardly hits the second one who jumped right in his path.

So in percentage terms you're looking something of the order of 70-90% blame on the bus driver, 10-30% on the second passenger, and 0-10% on the OP.

n97 mini wrote: »

IMO there are two issues here. Driver let off passenger where he shouldn't have. Case closed.

Second is cyclist cycling too fast to stop up inside of a stopped bus and hits pedestrian. As others have pointed out if it had been a motorised vehicle travelling too fast hitting the pedestrian it would be case closed.

There's a few issues with your conclusions:

(1) passengers disembarking onto a cycle track have a duty to them-self and others -- but this is somehow not an issue for you.

(2) no motorized vehicle other than a wheelchair or electric assisted bicycle are allowed in the cycle track.

(3) not sure what you're using to support your claim that the OP was going too fast -- he had braked and avoided the first passenger and the contact with the second passenger who did not look seems to be at low speed.

(4) cases of motorised vehicles vs pedestrians are not as black and white as you're making out. Proving inappropriate speed (not just speeding, but any notable speed) goes a long way to indicating negligence, but proving such in collisions, where there the road isn't closed off for inspection or there isn't a few compelling witnesses, is a very hard thing to do.

meathstevie wrote: »

If you replace bicycle with motorcycle nobody would for a moment argue who's fault it is the collision happened.

Because the motorcyclist would have been illegally using the cycle track.

meathstevie wrote: »

Sorry OP but you were undertaking a line of static vehicles including a bus. Rule number one about busses standing still is that it's highly likely someone is going to get on or off it.

You missed the rule number one for bus drivers opening their doors (only do so at stops). And rule number two (if you're going to open away from a stop, pull into the kerb), and rule number three (if you're not bothered to follow rule number one and two, at least make sure there's no cyclist coming).

And rule number one for passages exiting away from stops -- look before you jump off.

Red Kev wrote: »

All 3 are partially at fault.
....

Anybody who says the driver is 100% responsible for the accident can't be serious.

Agreed on both counts, but...

Red Kev wrote: »

1. Driver. The driver was trying to do the young lad a favour, I think that's OK. The driver should have checked his mirrors and advised the lad to look before get off safely. Ok, the regs state the driver shouldn't open the doors, a few months ago I was on a bus in Rathmines, it got stopped for an hour due to an accident 60 metres ahead. We were 20 metres from a bus stop, the driver wouldn't open the doors, and TBH we were mightily p1ssed off with him.

...

In short, a minor incident, (thankfully), nobody is even 50% responsible IMO and all three should learn from it.

Problem is that you're getting emotive here and your wish for drivers to break the rules to suit you and other passages is clouding your judgment on the the fact that they are making a clear cut breach of the rules and doing a fairly bad job at it (not pulling into the kerb and not looking or spotting the cyclist).

At the very lowest level the driver is 60% to blame, and likely higher.

Red Kev wrote: »

3. Cyclist should have been cycling in a manner where an emergency stop is possible, so they are also partially to blame, cyclist admitted that their braking performance was worse than usual. Yes, the cyclist wants to get home out of the rain, but caution should be exercised.

Maybe you missed the bit where the OP braked and avoided the fist passenger?

Maybe you missed the part where they hardly hit the second one?

Spook_ie

monument wrote: »

<snipped>

There's a few issues with your conclusions:

(1) passengers disembarking onto a cycle track have a duty to them-self and others -- but this is somehow not an issue for you.

(2) no motorized vehicle other than a wheelchair or electric assisted bicycle are allowed in the cycle track.

(3) not sure what you're using to support your claim that the OP was going too fast -- he had braked and avoided the first passenger and the contact with the second passenger who did not look seems to be at low speed.

(4) cases of motorised vehicles vs pedestrians are not as black and white as you're making out. Proving inappropriate speed (not just speeding, but any notable speed) goes a long way to indicating negligence, but proving such in collisions, where there the road isn't closed off for inspection or there isn't a few compelling witnesses, is a very hard thing to do.




Because the motorcyclist would have been illegally using the cycle track.




<snipped>



Maybe you missed the bit where the OP braked and avoided the fist passenger?

Maybe you missed the part where they hardly hit the second one?

1 It's a broken line so it's not a cycle track, which means it's an advisory cycle lane ( assuming we are talking about the side of the road in the picture and not the cycle lane on the opposite side) Si 332/2012 does prohibit the overtaking on the inside of a vehicle embarking or disembarking passengers and does not specify at a bus stop, nor does it specify what (if any) signals should be given, so cyclists should exhibit greater care when overtaking vehicles on the left.

(b) A pedal cyclist may overtake on the left where vehicles to the pedal cyclist’s right are stationary or are moving more slowly than the overtaking pedal cycle, except where the vehicle to be overtaken—


(i) has signalled an intention to turn to the left and there is a reasonable expectation that the vehicle in which the driver has signalled an intention to turn to the left will execute a movement to the left before the cycle overtakes the vehicle,


(ii) is stationary for the purposes of permitting a passenger or passengers to alight or board the vehicle, or


(iii) is stationary for the purposes of loading or unloading.”,

2 It's an advisory cycle lane and as such motorised traffic is allowed into it, as the bus lane is 07.00-19.00 then any motorised traffic would be permitted outside of these hours

3 If he managed to miss the first passenger by stopping, I'm unsure as to how he managed to hit the second passenger?

Spook_ie

Bus Stops, not sure about DB bye-laws but Bus Éireann-Irish Bus Bye-laws do specifically state

“bus stop” means a place (whether or not indicated by a sign erected by or on behalf of the company or the National Transport Authority) at which passengers may board or alight from a vehicle;

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2014/en/si/0251.html

paddyland

Regardless of who was at fault, and it does appear that the driver shoulders some blame for opening the door where he did, I find the lynch mob mentality that appears instantly when any bus driver displays even the slightest infringement of a rigidly set plan of rules and regulations, quite childish and disheartening.

There are some here, who by the tone of their posts, would have bus drivers sacked, jailed and publicly humiliated for so much as blinking while driving a bus in a forward direction. I wonder how many of them would do the bus driver's job themselves? I say this, because it is the same few reliables, who appear instantly, the moment a bus driver is mentioned for some petty misdemeanour, demanding his identification, his bus number, and letters to the company, his dismissal, etc.

My God, there are some serious hate issues going on here. Is it not possible that a bus driver, or anyone, can make a mistake, on a low level, and once nothing serious occurred, be left alone to get on with a very difficult and increasingly litigated job, for little enough money, that few others could or would do?

By all means come on and mention that an incident occurred, that we might all learn a little from, the bus driver included. But could we have less of the 'bus driver is 100% at fault, because bus drivers are always 100% at fault, because I hate bus drivers anyway' childish nonsense? It says a lot when the loudest protestors have probably never driven a lorry or a bus in their lives. Tone down the hate a bit. The bus driver, apart from two or three individual screwballs, doesn't hate you, and is generally doing his best, under relentlessly difficult circumstances.

micar

Spook_ie wrote: »

3 If he managed to miss the first passenger by stopping, I'm unsure as to how he managed to hit the second passenger?

When she got off, I was relatively far back to be able to react and slow down. I was no where near hitting her. I slowed down but did not stop.

It was the 2-3 seconds that passed when the second passenger got off. At that time, I only had a second to 2 to slow down. I pulled on the brakes to slow down and had to swerve between him and the bus to avoid hitting him head on. That's how I managed to just clip him.

corktina

sounds to me as if you were going too fast. Whereas the Bus Driver is mostly to blame for letting people off where he shouldn't, a Cyclist should be aware of the dangers and be prepared to stop, you clearly couldn't even after being alerted to the danger by the first passenger getting off, you should have been prepared for others following

monument

Spook_ie wrote: »

1 It's a broken line so it's not a cycle track, which means it's an advisory cycle lane ( assuming we are talking about the side of the road in the picture and not the cycle lane on the opposite side) Si 332/2012 does prohibit the overtaking on the inside of a vehicle embarking or disembarking passengers and does not specify at a bus stop, nor does it specify what (if any) signals should be given, so cyclists should exhibit greater care when overtaking vehicles on the left.


2 It's an advisory cycle lane and as such motorised traffic is allowed into it, as the bus lane is 07.00-19.00 then any motorised traffic would be permitted outside of these hours

3 If he managed to miss the first passenger by stopping, I'm unsure as to how he managed to hit the second passenger?

Lol

As usually in your attempt to bash cyclist, the OP in this case, you're jumping to conclusions and running around reading bits of law without reading or understanding the opening post.

The opening post clearly refers to the other side of the road and even if it did not the OP says that he was traveling within bus lane hours.

And you also start ranting about "overtaking vehicles on the left" rule which in any case does not apply to motor traffic and was not created for motor traffic, so it also would not apply to the fictional possible motorcyclist.

monument

Warning to all -- no quoting this post or paddyland's post which I've quoted.

--moderator

paddyland wrote: »

Regardless of who was at fault, and it does appear that the driver shoulders some blame for opening the door where he did, I find the lynch mob mentality that appears instantly when any bus driver displays even the slightest infringement of a rigidly set plan of rules and regulations, quite childish and disheartening.

There are some here, who by the tone of their posts, would have bus drivers sacked, jailed and publicly humiliated for so much as blinking while driving a bus in a forward direction. I wonder how many of them would do the bus driver's job themselves? I say this, because it is the same few reliables, who appear instantly, the moment a bus driver is mentioned for some petty misdemeanour, demanding his identification, his bus number, and letters to the company, his dismissal, etc.

My God, there are some serious hate issues going on here. Is it not possible that a bus driver, or anyone, can make a mistake, on a low level, and once nothing serious occurred, be left alone to get on with a very difficult and increasingly litigated job, for little enough money, that few others could or would do?

By all means come on and mention that an incident occurred, that we might all learn a little from, the bus driver included. But could we have less of the 'bus driver is 100% at fault, because bus drivers are always 100% at fault, because I hate bus drivers anyway' childish nonsense? It says a lot when the loudest protestors have probably never driven a lorry or a bus in their lives. Tone down the hate a bit. The bus driver, apart from two or three individual screwballs, doesn't hate you, and is generally doing his best, under relentlessly difficult circumstances.

After that rant you can take a break from this thread, and don't bother posting on it again.

You need to read the charter -- if you see behaviour worth reporting, then report it. If you don't think it's worth reporting, then suck it up. People have explained their views if you can't engaging in that, leave the rant out of it.

And you need to worry less about the tone of other people's posts and more about the over the top tone of you own (ie "lynch mob mentality", "jailed and publicly humiliated for so much as blinking while driving a bus in a forward direction" etc)

As for wondering how many of them would do the bus driver's job themselves, I can't find mention of jailing the bus driver and it does not seem like you have read the thread, because only/main person to mention anything like sacking was a bus driver:

--moderator

V.W.L 11 wrote: »

I can only speak for myself here but as a bus driver myself I know that in a normal situation if I open the doors at a place that is not an official stop then I can A. Be sued if an injury occurred and B. Be issued with a lovely document called a P45

monument

Spook_ie wrote: »

There is little in there to indicate which direction the cyclist is going

Fact 1 The opening post does not state where the incident occurred, the link posted later when opened focuses on a bus stop with a broken white line before and after it, there is NO indication in either the opening post or the post with the image that it refers to the opposite side of the road, however, as usual, it would seem in your hurry to call me a cyclist basher you didn't actually read anything!

You're wrong, the opening post includes the line: "Went around Harts Corner from Phibsboro over to Glasnevin onto the Botanic Road."

Any link to Google Maps should be read in that context.

So, you're rushing to post in the first place without understanding the opening post and then even when I say you're wrong, you still don't go back and read it or you still don't understand it.

Spook_ie wrote: »

Fact 2 I haven't mentioned anything about a motor cyclist, just that the bus lane is 7.00 till 19.00 and outside of these hours the bus lane and therefore the ADVISORY cycle lane are shared with all motorised traffic

You were interjecting and quoting sections of posts which were talking about motorcyclists. I'm not sure how you think any other motorised traffic would be undertaking the bus by using a cycle lane! But I suppose I do see some cars using both cycle path and footpath at least once a week for undertaking...

Spook_ie wrote: »

And what happens outside of the bus lane hours is irrelevant given that the events happened inside the bus lane hours.

As above, you need to start reading posts before jumping to conclusions.

Spook_ie wrote: »

EDITED ADDITION
https://www.google.ie/maps/@53.3680244,-6.2701722,3a,75y,351.94h,93.28t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1s5B4GHYiBVcbY3GxCIo-f9Q!2e0

Notice the broken white line on that bit of the road too

That's less than the 20-25m from the bus stop mentioned in the opening post and how exactly would a motorcyclist stuck in traffic get there? :rolleyes:

Spook_ie

monument wrote: »

Lol

As usually in your attempt to bash cyclist, the OP in this case, you're jumping to conclusions and running around reading bits of law without reading or understanding the opening post.

The opening post clearly refers to the other side of the road and even if it did not the OP says that he was traveling within bus lane hours.

And you also start ranting about "overtaking vehicles on the left" rule which in any case does not apply to motor traffic and was not created for motor traffic, so it also would not apply to the fictional possible motorcyclist.

And as usual you really, really need to get over your anti spook bias.

I'll accept on re-reading the OP and following it on a map that he is heading North on the Botanic Road and would have been better served by rotating the picture of where it happened to show the side of the road rather than the bus stop on the opposite side. Like this
https://www.google.ie/maps/@53.3680244,-6.2701722,3a,75y,335.95h,69.13t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1s5B4GHYiBVcbY3GxCIo-f9Q!2e0

Now notwithstanding that, the facts I posted are indeed facts

Spook_ie wrote: »

1 It's a broken line so it's not a cycle track, which means it's an advisory cycle lane ( assuming we are talking about the side of the road in the picture and not the cycle lane on the opposite side) Si 332/2012 does prohibit the overtaking on the inside of a vehicle embarking or disembarking passengers and does not specify at a bus stop, nor does it specify what (if any) signals should be given, so cyclists should exhibit greater care when overtaking vehicles on the left.

Is a fact and the lane marking is broken before the bus stop is a fact, even on the North bound lane

2 It's an advisory cycle lane and as such motorised traffic is allowed into it, as the bus lane is 07.00-19.00 then any motorised traffic would be permitted outside of these hours

My bad looking at the photo link and thinking he was referring to the bus stop prominent in the picture, but still a fact that as it's advisory ALL motorised traffic is allowed into it outside of opening hours

3 If he managed to miss the first passenger by stopping, I'm unsure as to how he managed to hit the second passenger?

A simple enough question

Fact 4 Nowhere did I infer it was allowable for motorised traffic to overtake on the left

Spook_ie

monument wrote: »

You're wrong, the opening post includes the line: "Went around Harts Corner from Phibsboro over to Glasnevin onto the Botanic Road."

Any link to Google Maps should be read in that context.

So, you're rushing to post in the first place without understanding the opening post and then even when I say you're wrong, you still don't go back and read it or you still don't understand it.



You were interjecting and quoting sections of posts which were talking about motorcyclists. I'm not sure how you think any other motorised traffic would be undertaking the bus by using a cycle lane! But I suppose I do see some cars using both cycle path and footpath at least once a week for undertaking...



As above, you need to start reading posts before jumping to conclusions.



That's less than the 20-25m from the bus stop mentioned in the opening post and how exactly would a motorcyclist stuck in traffic get there? :rolleyes:

As I deleted that post, with a mod note so that even you can see it, I think it would be easier for people to follow if you deleted the post you quoted and refered to my revised post instead

monument

Spook_ie wrote: »

As I deleted that post, with a mod note so that even you can see it, I think it would be easier for people to follow if you deleted the post you quoted and refered to my revised post instead

I quoted the posted before you deleted it, and then there was a time laps between hitting reply and posting the reply. Nothing to do with my mod powers.

Spook_ie wrote: »

Is a fact and the lane marking is broken before the bus stop is a fact, even on the North bound lane

Not the distance from the bus stop as already mentioned and, in the traffic conditions described, it would likely require using the cycke lane to get these.

Spook_ie wrote: »

A simple enough question

Fact 4 Nowhere did I infer it was allowable for motorised traffic to overtake on the left

I have not questioned that and the OP has responded since.