€750 fine for breaking red light.

Zyzz

http://www.stickybottle.com/latest-news/gardai-target-cyclists-with-e750-fine-as-dublin-speeding-hotspots-revealed/

I for one am welcoming this with open arms and I hope there is a very strict/zero tolerance from the Gardai involved!

Thoughts?

Reposting from 07Lapierre*

albert kidd

be more in their line to put a bit more effort into zero tolerance in regards to bike theft,instead of easy prey or a new cash cow.

Brian?

Stupidly over the top amount for the fine. What does breaking a red light in a car get you?

I completely support red light jumpers being punished. But this is sensationalist nonsense.

Wishbone Ash

(You'll be doomed if they introduce speeding fines for cyclists! )

Chief Supt Reid was on the radio today and claimed that several hundred cyclists had already been fined. Haven't really heard much about it on the media though.

Stark

What the ****? It's only 80 euro for breaking a red light in a car

Wishbone Ash

albert kidd wrote: »

be more in their line to put a bit more effort into zero tolerance in regards to bike theft,instead of easy prey or a new cash cow.

I can see where you are coming from but successive Garda Commissioners have stated that the primary purpose of the Gardai is to preserve life. It could be argued that detecting bike theft is secondary to detecting RLJ's. (Don't shoot the messenger!)

JBokeh

They'll catch a few to prove a point,and it will be back to normal. Unless you get caught later on,and are a bit of a smartass,and they'll probably throw it at you. It's a fairly excessive fine,but last time I was in Cork city at commuting time it was a small bit worrying when you'd see a cyclist break the light without really going out of their way to look

Anyone ever see the complete daredevils going around like the film "premium rush",I was in Dublin a few months ago and remember standing there seeing some chap on a single speed come flying out of a junction and do a kind of a zig zag through moving cars,I had never seen something like it,I saw a few more doing similar style riding in the few days I was there. Might be an ordinary thing,but I don't go to Dublin much and it was a new one on me

Zyzz

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

(You'll be doomed if they introduce speeding fines for cyclists! )

Chief Supt Reid was on the radio today and claimed that several hundred cyclists had already been fined. Haven't really heard much about it on the media though.

That will be the day I hang up my cleats and take up something like line dancing. :pac::P

Wishbone Ash

JBokeh wrote: »

...Anyone ever see the complete daredevils going around like the film "premium rush",I was in Dublin a few months ago and remember standing there seeing some chap on a single speed come flying out of a junction and do a kind of a zig zag through moving cars..

It's very rare to see it done to the extent of the lads in 'Premium Rush'. Leaving aside the illegal antics in that film, the actual manoeuvres they make are fascinating to watch.

Beasty

Those "several hundred cyclists" could have been over a very long period for all we know

Obviously in the absence of fixed penalties cyclists can only be taken to court where the potential fines are going to be much higher than the fixed penalties applicable in most motoring cases. I would be amazed though if any cyclist has ever been fined anything approaching €750 for a single red light offence. That's the maximum potential fine and certainly not the "going rate"

Stheno

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

It's very rare to see it done to the extent of the lads in 'Premium Rush'. Leaving aside the illegal antics in that film, the actual manoeuvres they make are fascinating to watch.

Yesterday I had a green light at three junctions in D2, and had to stop due to a total of 11 cyclists at those junctions ignoring the lights, some cyclists in Dublin are just oblivious

Wishbone Ash

Stheno wrote: »

Yesterday I had a green light at three junctions in D2, and had to stop due to a total of 11 cyclists at those junctions ignoring the lights, some cyclists in Dublin are just oblivious

Have you seen 'Premium Rush'? We're not talking about cyclists simply breaking red lights but couriers riding fixed without brakes ignoring red lights and crossing several lanes of moving traffic and in many cases actually making contact with moving vehicles and yet managing to survive.

Duiske

Zyzz wrote: »

http://www.stickybottle.com/latest-news/gardai-target-cyclists-with-e750-fine-as-dublin-speeding-hotspots-revealed/

I for one am welcoming this with open arms and I hope there is a very strict/zero tolerance from the Gardai involved!

Thoughts?

Reposting from 07Lapierre*

Ridiculous amount for the offence, though I'm sure it's the maximum possible if the cyclist ends up in court and will never be handed done unless the offence ended up causing a serious accident. Max for the same offence in a car is €800, but "on the spot" is only 10% of that, €80. So maybe an on the spot fine of something like €75 for cyclists ?

RainyDay

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

I can see where you are coming from but successive Garda Commissioners have stated that the primary purpose of the Gardai is to preserve life. It could be argued that detecting bike theft is secondary to detecting RLJ's. (Don't shoot the messenger!)

It could be argued that if their primary purpose is to preserve life, they should focus their traffic enforcement efforts on the user group that kills 200+ people each year, and not the user group that kills no-one.

UDP

RainyDay wrote: »

It could be argued that if their primary purpose is to preserve life, they should focus their traffic enforcement efforts on the user group that kills 200+ people each year, and not the user group that kills no-one.

Their primary purpose is to enforce the law. I would hope they can focus on all road users at the same time. Some cyclists (a least in dublin during rush hour) need a wake up call to realise it is not ok to break red lights just because they think they are doing it safely or are following some brake/break bs rule they made up as was mentioned in a different thread. Same goes for the many cars and buses (including dublin bus buses) I see breaking red lights daily in dublin on my cycling commute through the city.

Something like an on the spot €50-€80 fine needs to be brought in instead or wasting court time.

Puggy

Two work mates were done last year for failing to stop at lights at the dental hospital/Kennedy's pub. One went to court and was fined €500, partly because he thought the guard was havin a laugh. There were about 10 cyclists going through the same lights. He laughed at the patrol car as they put on the siren and followed him down the bus lane. He went to court and was fined. He said all the other cases were similar to his, cyclists failing to stop at lights.

The other had a friend on the force. The new crackdown is for all road users. I've noticed a few guards on Gardiner St the past few days. They seem to be watching for traffic driving through the junction on Amber/red lights.

Rsa.ie has the full list of offences, the failing to obey lights is 2penalty points and €80 fine or 5 penalty points and €120 fine if not paid in 28 days.

leftwinger

How about enforcing cyclists to have lights on their bikes or to wear proper reflective clothing . . . SO WE CAN SEE THEM !!

Zyzz

leftwinger wrote: »

How about enforcing cyclists to have lights on their bikes or to wear proper reflective clothing . . . SO WE CAN SEE THEM !!

It's already illegal to cycle without lights.

..the door out of this thread is to your left, please take it.

magicbastarder

leftwinger wrote: »

How about enforcing cyclists to have lights on their bikes or to wear proper reflective clothing . . . SO WE CAN SEE THEM !!

cognitive dissonance; i thought the daily mail approach was right wing?

Orion

James esq wrote: »

POST DELETED

I feel the same way about the proper use of punctuation and grammar.

slap/dash

Absolute bs.

godtabh

All talk. They'll target a few commuter routes during rush hours and do nothing after.

I was out this morning and a car with no lights passed me out followed 30 seconds later by a squad car who had to have seen the car. Did nothing.


I tried to flag the squad car down but he just drove off (caught up with the car up to road and politely told him to turn on his lights).

The garadi are very selective and usual do things like this for media spin as far as I can tell.

nolinejudge

I was surprised with the amount of people who weren't stopped while they enforced the bus corridor. People still sailing through the red lights.

micar

leftwinger wrote: »

How about enforcing cyclists to have lights on their bikes or to wear proper reflective clothing . . . SO WE CAN SEE THEM !!

that's great to say, but that do you say to the motorists to still fail to indicate and to look in their side mirrors before turning left.

Having lights on and reflective clothing means jack if motorists are not aware of what's around them

REXER

Brian? wrote: »

Stupidly over the top amount for the fine. What does breaking a red light in a car get you?

I completely support red light jumpers being punished. But this is sensationalist nonsense.

80 euro and 2 penalty points, and depending on the circumstances possibly a charge of reckless or dangerous driving with a court appearance so 750 euro looks totally appropriate.

Unless they do the same for a cyclist.

So an 80 euro and 2 penalty points (held over if you don't have a licence), and depending on the circumstances possibly a charge of reckless or dangerous driving with a court appearance and more penalty points with a greater impact on your insurance costs.

After all, that is what a driver would face in reality. Not just the 80 euro and 2 points!

Tigerandahalf

Just a quick question. If you are in a cycle lane that continues left past traffic lights and they are red can you still cycle on given that you will be in cycle lane and 'should' only have to yield to oncoming cyclists?
Or is it better to just stop. It is a pain when on an incline.

machiavellianme

REXER wrote: »

80 and 2 penalty points, and depending on the circumstances possibly a charge of reckless or dangerous driving with a court appearance so 750 euro looks totally appropriate.

Unless they do the same for a cyclist.

So an 80 euro and 2 penalty points (held over if you don't have a licence), and depending on the circumstances possibly a charge of reckless or dangerous driving with a court appearance and more penalty points with a greater impact on your insurance costs.

After all, that is what a driver would face in reality. Not just the 80 euro and 2 points!

Why should a cyclist get two penalty points?
It may result in higher insurance premiums for their car even though they use their car less than others (since they're on a bike).
A car can inflict serious damage if it breaks a red light and causes an accident. A cyclist doing the same is unlikely to inflict much damage on anyone other than themselves.

Jawgap

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

Just a quick question. If you are in a cycle lane that continues left past traffic lights and they are red can you still cycle on given that you will be in cycle lane and 'should' only have to yield to oncoming cyclists?
Or is it better to just stop. It is a pain when on an incline.

If the cycle track is on the road - then you have to stop.

If it's off the road (on the path), then assuming you're talking about a T-junction situation (with the path being the cross-bar of the tea) then you can proceed.

Beasty

Had one the other day stopping me on the Old N1. He initially was "concerned" that I had not used a very expensively recently constructed "cycling facility".

When I explained I knew about the facility but had no intention of using it he started accusing me of "dangerous driving" because I was "weaving in and out of traffic lanes". He then stated I could be taken to court and get a fine and penalty points (I told him I knew that penalty points was a "possibility" and that I was aware of one case where this had happened, to which he said that must have been a case he had previously taken!!).

I thought initially he was referring to the fact I went between 2 lanes of standing traffic approaching a roundabout. Essentially I would have been either side of the "broken" white line on occasions and he kept referring to me "moving between lanes". With hindsight he maybe was referring to something earlier where I had to pull out to get past some left turning traffic and then pulled back in. I had also been overtaking standing traffic in lane 1 by moving into lane 2, and then when the traffic started moving I saw a gap and moved back into lane 1.

While we were chatting, and I was making the point I was looking around and fully aware of the status of all vehicles that were around me. He was reviewing his "video evidence" at the same time, although I could not see that "evidence". He then changed his tune a bit and started telling me the new "facility" was there to protect me from inattentive and/or careless drivers, and that I really should use it. He also stated he had been against the abolition of the mandatory use of cycle lanes, by which time I had formed the view he was simply seeing me as another "student" in need of a "firm lecture" given his clearly superior knowledge of cycling safety matters:rolleyes:

I was guessing I was supposed to be his final bit of daily "entertainment", and he possibly got a bit of a different reaction to what he ws expecting or wanted....

Anyway I thanked him for his general concern for cyclists and we both went on our merry ways - he had decioded not to push for penalty points on my driving licence....

RainyDay

leftwinger wrote: »

How about enforcing cyclists to have lights on their bikes or to wear proper reflective clothing . . . SO WE CAN SEE THEM !!

If you can't see cyclists without them wearing proper reflective clothing, you're not fit to drive.

REXER

machiavellianme wrote: »

Why should a cyclist get two penalty points?
It may result in higher insurance premiums for their car even though they use their car less than others (since they're on a bike).
A car can inflict serious damage if it breaks a red light and causes an accident. A cyclist doing the same is unlikely to inflict much damage on anyone other than themselves.

Because they are breaking the law and as you all seem to think, (as long as it suits you) the sanction should be the same.

There are many cases of serious injuries to pedestrians and also the odd death on record as being caused by cyclists.

Then there is also the damage to other peoples property that cyclists cause that is never taken into account, as the cyclist weaves his merry way through the traffic after having a little ding, (sure, its only a little scratch/dent/scrape) no damage at all!

rp

JBokeh wrote: »

I was in Dublin a few months ago and remember standing there seeing some chap on a single speed come flying out of a junction and do a kind of a zig zag through moving cars,I had never seen something like it

If that was the south quays, zig-zagging is the only way to make any progress through the traffic, if you don't want to queue behind cars doing 12kph and puffing poisonous gases into your face. It might look dangerous, but the bike must be out-accelerating the cars else it wouldn't have been able to zig and zag, at worst it might shock a driver who wasn't paying attention to the traffic (ain't facebook a bitch?)

desertcircus

Beasty wrote: »

Had one the other day stopping me on the Old N1. He initially was "concerned" that I had not used a very expensively recently constructed "cycling facility".

When I explained I knew about the facility but had no intention of using it he started accusing me of "dangerous driving" because I was "weaving in and out of traffic lanes". He then stated I could be taken to court and get a fine and penalty points (I told him I knew that penalty points was a "possibility" and that I was aware of one case where this had happened, to which he said that must have been a case he had previously taken!!).

I thought initially he was referring to the fact I went between 2 lanes of standing traffic approaching a roundabout. Essentially I would have been either side of the "broken" white line on occasions and he kept referring to me "moving between lanes". With hindsight he maybe was referring to something earlier where I had to pull out to get past some left turning traffic and then pulled back in. I had also been overtaking standing traffic in lane 1 by moving into lane 2, and then when the traffic started moving I saw a gap and moved back into lane 1.

While we were chatting, and I was making the point I was looking around and fully aware of the status of all vehicles that were around me. He was reviewing his "video evidence" at the same time, although I could not see that "evidence". He then changed his tune a bit and started telling me the new "facility" was there to protect me from inattentive and/or careless drivers, and that I really should use it. He also stated he had been against the abolition of the mandatory use of cycle lanes, by which time I had formed the view he was simply seeing me as another "student" in need of a "firm lecture" given his clearly superior knowledge of cycling safety matters:rolleyes:

I was guessing I was supposed to be his final bit of daily "entertainment", and he possibly got a bit of a different reaction to what he ws expecting or wanted....

Anyway I thanked him for his general concern for cyclists and we both went on our merry ways - he had decioded not to push for penalty points on my driving licence....

I know I'm warier of misuses of authority than most, but a cop who stops a cyclist for not using a cycle lane should be looking at disciplinary proceedings. Having a badge doesn't give you carte blanche to use it to attempt to intimidate citizens into doing things the way you think they should be done, and it's absolutely not on. You're there to enforce the law, not harass people for behaving in a perfectly legal manner.

CramCycle

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

Just a quick question. If you are in a cycle lane that continues left past traffic lights and they are red can you still cycle on given that you will be in cycle lane and 'should' only have to yield to oncoming cyclists?
Or is it better to just stop. It is a pain when on an incline.

If the lights are to the right of the cycle lane it is either a yield or down not apply depending on signage, if it's too the left of the cycle track then they apply to the track as well. Not that the local councils get this right half the time.

machiavellianme

REXER wrote: »

Because they are breaking the law and as you all seem to think, (as long as it suits you) the sanction should be the same.

There are many cases of serious injuries to pedestrians and also the odd death on record as being caused by cyclists.

Then there is also the damage to other peoples property that cyclists cause that is never taken into account, as the cyclist weaves his merry way through the traffic after having a little ding, (sure, its only a little scratch/dent/scrape) no damage at all!

Do pedestrians get two penalty points for jay walking?
I don't have any issues with fixed fines for breaking the law, I just don't know why it should be further penalised for something unrelated?
Where does it end?
If a dog bolts across the street when it's unsafe to do so, should the owner get two penalty points? What if I get a puncture and have to stop in a clearway, should I get two penalty points then? The penalty points system is associated with motor vehicle licences and should not come into the equation.

cdaly_

stickybottle wrote:

automated red light running detection on Benburb Street in the north inner city.

A camera that had already been installed there had recorded an average of five vehicles per day breaking the lights.

Sound to me like that camera is not working properly...

2 Wheels Good

RainyDay wrote: »

If you can't see cyclists without them wearing proper reflective clothing, you're not fit to drive.

That's not quite true, it can be quite hard to see cyclists when they've no lights/hi-vis on, especially when they're going the wrong way down one way streets as is happening more and more here in Cork.

unichall

machiavellianme wrote: »

Do pedestrians get two penalty points for jay walking?
I don't have any issues with fixed fines for breaking the law, I just don't know why it should be further penalised for something unrelated?
Where does it end?
If a dog bolts across the street when it's unsafe to do so, should the owner get two penalty points? What if I get a puncture and have to stop in a clearway, should I get two penalty points then? The penalty points system is associated with motor vehicle licences and should not come into the equation.

Ill give you a laugh, a few years ago a cyclist caused a crash between 2 cars at the junction of Kevin St/ Patrick St and was prosecuted for it. He was disqualified from driving for a few years, didn't even have a driving licence or know how to drive but there you go

http://m.independent.ie/irish-news/injured-cyclist-gets-driving-ban-for-breaking-red-light-26661405.html

Beasty

desertcircus wrote: »

I know I'm warier of misuses of authority than most, but a cop who stops a cyclist for not using a cycle lane should be looking at disciplinary proceedings. Having a badge doesn't give you carte blanche to use it to attempt to intimidate citizens into doing things the way you think they should be done, and it's absolutely not on. You're there to enforce the law, not harass people for behaving in a perfectly legal manner.

Fortunately it didn't bother me and it probably ended up being as much hassle for him as it was foir me

Pity he'd not been around that morning, when a cyclist overtook me as I was slowing behind traffic that was held up, and then proceeded to undertake the 2 cars ahead who were indicating left (and he was actually passing one of them at the junction they were turning at)

Then about 5 minutes after me and the Gardai parted our ways I was in lane 1 heading through a section at Blakes Cross where the outside lane was for right turning vehicles only (I was going straight on), and a car decided to overtake me via the hard shoulder (which was pretty unsuitable for cycling on at that particular place)!

ROK ON

I would wonder about the legality of applying penalty points to a persons license from an offence that is completed unrelated to the license. Opens up possibilities of appeal.

Secondly in my view any regulatory or enforcement body such as the Gardai should be proportionate to the impact of the alleged offence. It is this basis that we devote a greater recourse to murder, crimes against the body relative to shoplifting. To do otherwise is to misdirection resources that are already stretched away from serious crimes. No issue with the idea of penalising lawbreakers but it must be proportionate as opposed to this zero tolerance type of nonsense.

Red light breaking is similar to jaywalking or poorly parking cars. It is potentially risky but mostly an annoyance.
The number of people in cars driving up the quays each morning on phones or even iPads is gone beyond a joke. In my subjective view this is at least as risky as the cyclist breaking a light.

bitemeluis

Stark wrote: »

What the ****? It's only 80 euro for breaking a red light in a car

If you're looking for equality then maybe pay road tax....

ROK ON

bitemeluis wrote: »

If you're looking for equality then maybe pay road tax....

We already pay road tax at the same rate as other road users with the exception of public vehicles (ambulances and the like) which are I think exempt from road tax.

Beasty

bitemeluis wrote: »

If you're looking for equality then maybe pay road tax....

If that's your first contribution to the forum can I ask the re-consider your posting style before posting again, as on basis of that post you will find youself treated as a troll

Any questions PM me - do not respond in-thread

Thanks

bitemeluis

ROK ON wrote: »

We already pay road tax at the same rate as other road users with the exception of public vehicles (ambulances and the like) which are I think exempt from road tax.

excuse my ignorance but can you break that down exactly for me, because my net calculation has a difference between cyclist road tax & car road tax

Tenzor07

Beasty wrote: »

When I explained I knew about the facility but had no intention of using it he started accusing me of "dangerous driving" because I was "weaving in and out of traffic lanes". He then stated I could be taken to court and get a fine and penalty points

Just as a matter of interest, I presume this was a member of the traffic corps in full uniform?

Did he explain clearly why he was stopping you, i.e. stating which exact provision under the road traffic act?
Did he ask for your name and address and or driving license?

bitemeluis

Beasty wrote: »

If that's your first contribution to the forum can I ask the re-consider your posting style before posting again, as on basis of that post you will find youself treated as a troll

Any questions PM me - do not respond in-thread

Thanks

Posting style duly reconsidered - have now progressed from statements to questions.

sconhome

bitemeluis wrote: »

excuse my ignorance but can you break that down exactly for me, because my net calculation has a difference between cyclist road tax & car road tax

Be worth a google search to inform yourself about how roads are paid for and you might find a definition of 'road tax' while you're there too.

Beasty

Tenzor07 wrote: »

Just as a matter of interest, I presume this was a member of the traffic corps in full uniform?

Did he explain clearly why he was stopping you, i.e. stating which exact provision under the road traffic act?
Did he ask for your name and address and or driving license?

Traffic cop - yes - suspect he was on his way home for the evening

Didn't state any RTA section numbers, just "dangerous driving" as a "possibility" - he "could" seek prosecution

It was never going to go there though - he was simply wanting to give me a lecture. Towards the end he made it clear he was not going to ask for ID and he knew I did not need to have any on me - did cross my mind he could have taken the bike, but the conversation was always amenable enough (despite his lecturing tone), and I was pretty confident the chance of him taking it further was low. I was equally confident that if hge did and it ended up in court I would have been more than happy to head alonmg to defend myself vigorously (depending of course on what the video evidence showed - I suspect he changed his tune because he actually had nothing whatsoever that was conclusively supporting his position)

Beasty

Can we leave the "road tax" discussion there - not only is it off-topic, but I have warned one poster about it already

Thanks

magicbastarder

Beasty wrote: »

Had one the other day stopping me on the Old N1. He initially was "concerned" that I had not used a very expensively recently constructed "cycling facility".

was this on the stretch past the airport, with the combined footpath and cycle path?

micar

I heard about the guards upping the anti on the radio yesterday afternoon.

I cycle to work each day and go through the city centre.

Was coming home yesterday evening and heading up Church Street in heavy traffic to a red light. I was pulling on the brakes slowing down. As I was coming up to the pedestrian crossing, the woman was crossing the road and in a very smart manner "Do you not see the red light". I told her that I had my hands on the brakes and was slowing down and that she should see what I am doing before making a comment like that. Of course, she ignored me. Luckily for me, she was actually crossing the road again and heading up to phibsboro. So,when the lights turned green and as I passed her I repeated what I said and again she looked straight ahead and ignored me.

No apology from her at all!!!!!

She obviously had heard or read the news feeds as us all.