Boeing engineering question

protog777

I want to work for Boeing as an engineer. I looked at the website and saw a list of different jobs and they are confusing. Can anyone tell me which type of engineer is involved in the most hands on activities on a daily basis. I would prefer to work on the mechanical side of the aircraft. Thanks in advance, protog777

artanevilla

Aircraft maintenance is quite hands on. You might not work directly for Boeing but you might be in a company working with Boeing aircraft i.e Ryanair.

protog777

artanevilla wrote: »

Aircraft maintenance is quite hands on. You might not work directly for Boeing but you might be in a company working with Boeing aircraft i.e Ryanair.

Does this require third level ed?

artanevilla

protog777 wrote: »

Does this require third level ed?

Not necessarily. You'll either do an apprenticeship with a MRO/Airline or do it in college. You need a licence and 5 years experience to work on aircraft (at least to sign for your own work. ). There's modules to be passed on the way to the licence on subjects such as Maths, Aerodynamics and Gas Turbines.

I'm currently a third year in IT Carlow Aircraft Systems which follows the EASA licencing syllabus. I sit two exams in each module, one for my degree (40% pass mark) and one for the EASA licencing exams (75% pass mark). At the end of this year I'll get my degree and a certificate of completion for the EASA modules. Then I've to do 2 years on the job training before I'm licencsed.

If you were to get an apprenticeship you'd be doing it for 5 years, covering the modules and the OJT.

The benefit of doing it in college is I'll have a degree to fall back on, whereas this isn't the case in an MRO/Airline.

D.I.T run a similar course to the one in Carlow also.

folbotcar

If you want to work hands on then why not start as an assembly worker? High school only required.

Alternatively go to an aviation college in the US and get an A & P mechanics cert and a degree. Then apply.

You do of course have that green card handy? Because of course without that they won't even look at you unless you are qualified in some specialist field that few Americans have and no,a degree or qualifications as an Engineer here don't count.

murphaph

Does Boeing not have any manufacturing outside the United States? For such a large company that would surprise me.

BonkeyDonker

murphaph wrote: »

Does Boeing not have any manufacturing outside the United States? For such a large company that would surprise me.

I imagine they have partners all around the word, but as far as I'am aware the actually Boeing assembly is only done in Washington state - Everett(B747, B767, B777 and B787), Renton(B737) , and South Carolina(B787).

Tenger

murphaph wrote: »

Does Boeing not have any manufacturing outside the United States? For such a large company that would surprise me.

Boeing area typical US heavy industry......US based all the way. The B787 has a global supple chin but this is a first for Boeing. Like the Detroit motor industry its a very US centric setup.
Hence the tagline "If it ain't Boeing then I ain't goin"

notmymark

Why so fixed on Boeing? There are no Green Card issues with:

Airbus Group

BAE Systems

Bombardier

Finmeccanica

Thales

Dassault

Saab

Rolls-Royce

All of which offer "hands-on" work. Not to mention any of the numerous maintenance and service companies which support the aeronautical industry.

protog777

artanevilla wrote: »

Aircraft maintenance is quite hands on. You might not work directly for Boeing but you might be in a company working with Boeing aircraft i.e Ryanair.

Is this a high paying job?

Tenger

protog777 wrote: »

Is this a high paying job?

Like so many things, depends on the company and on the length of service

munchkin_utd

notmymark wrote: »

Why so fixed on Boeing? There are no Green Card issues with:

Airbus Group

BAE Systems

Bombardier

Finmeccanica

Thales

Dassault

Saab

Rolls-Royce

All of which offer "hands-on" work. Not to mention any of the numerous maintenance and service companies which support the aeronautical industry.

you could add Eurocopter and a few additional engine companies to the list.

But for the original question.
An engineer does not have a "hands on job", so the OP should have a think of what they are actually looking to do.
An engineer sits at a computer designing and putting together analysis and calculations and reads books and university papers on the latest theories on airflow/ acoustics/ strengh of materials and the likes.
If you want to be an engineer in the aeronautical field then theres no lack of jobs, but you'd want to be asking us the question of how to get a job with a manufacturer in 4 or 5 years after doing an aero or mech eng degree.

BTW, do a phd in some related field and you'll be snapped up in no time, and get paid VERY handsomely for the job as you canot be overqualified when it comes to aeronautical disciplines.

notmymark

munchkin_utd wrote:

you could add Eurocopter and a few additional engine companies to the list.

FYI Eurocopter doesn't exist anymore. They are now known as Airbus Helicopters and are part of Airbus Group

munchkin_utd

notmymark wrote: »

FYI Eurocopter doesn't exist anymore. They are now known as Airbus Helicopters and are part of Airbus Group

fair enough, I missed the change of name there a few months back, but the essential point is that theres no lack of jobs in aerospace companies around europe (which indeed have a tendency to change name or merge/demerge every handful of years) without going to the trouble of needing a green card or work permits for America.

A320

munchkin_utd wrote: »

An engineer does not have a "hands on job", so the OP should have a think of what they are actually looking to do.

Those pesky aircraft engineers must be using magic to replace brake servos,engines,gear components and the likes

jamo2oo9

There is a distinct difference between an aeronautical engineer and an aeronautical/aircraft technician.

Aeronautical Engineer don't get much hands-on-the-job work. They mostly work in offices designing something or working out the calculations of something like how much force is applied onto the aircraft during taxiing, take-off, cruise, approach and landing. There are a lot of specialisations when it comes to aeronautical engineering. There could be design, landing gear, avionics, programming (don't think that would be an aeronautical engineer's job but for a programmer), auxiliary unit, power supply, fuselage, wings, aerodynamics, fuel management, stabiliser and many more.

An aeronautical/aircraft technician is a hands-on sort of a job where you could be repairing, assembling or inspecting aircraft parts. There is a lot of stress involved with this job as you would be under pressure to get the aircraft repaired in time for the next flight or you need to have the part fitted in for assembly before it moves to the next stage and having the aircraft delayed for delivery to its customers can cost the company a lot of money. You can work in Boeing as an assembly mechanic but if that's not what you want to do, you can look at airlines or maintenance companies.

But then again, both jobs are stressful but if you are really passionate about working in Boeing, then I suggest you get a certificate in aviation technician and take your A&P mechanics certificate and degree.

Don't expect to be well paid as an aircraft technician.

munchkin_utd

A320 wrote: »

Those pesky aircraft engineers must be using magic to replace brake servos,engines,gear components and the likes

I see that in Ireland the IAA calls folks who fix planes "Maintenance Engineers"
https://www.iaa.ie/maintenance-engineers
despite the fact that normally speaking an engineer is someone who designs products, and not the person who fixes them.
At least with the term maintence engineer you can get the idea that its not a design job, so I'll give them that.

I suppose its the same with the SIMI managing the irish Automobile "industry" even though theres no such thing.

folbotcar

It's not just Ireland, the UK refers to Aircraft Maintenance Engineers as well. I think Engineer is mostly a traditional term in this part of the world. There are also Flight Engineers, a dying breed but are definitely hands on.

But to be fair given their responsibilities and skill set, Engineer is a better term than mechanic or technician particularly these days.

In the US they are called mechanics. Which over here implies merely a grease monkey working on cars or tractors.

No doubt our resident Aircraft Engineer, Stovepipe will explain further.

dastardly00

Off-topic, but basically anyone here in Ireland can call themselves engineers I believe. Like a builder calling himself/herself a civil engineer and an electrician calling himself/herself an electrical engineer.

kona

I'd consider anybody who certifies aircraft a engineer. Anything else is a mechanic.

As for somebody sitting behind a desk messing with cad and maths. I feel sorry for you.

anothernight

kona wrote: »

As for somebody sitting behind a desk messing with cad and maths. I feel sorry for you.

I suppose you feel sorry for many engineers then. You know, the ones that actually have to design and test stuff using their knowledge of physics.

The sooner the title is protected, like in several countries, the better. Pretend to be a solicitor and you can be done for fraud. Pretend to be an engineer and...

A320

anothernight wrote: »

I suppose you feel sorry for many engineers then. You know, the ones that actually have to design and test stuff using their knowledge of physics.

The sooner the title is protected, like in several countries, the better. Pretend to be a solicitor and you can be done for fraud. Pretend to be an engineer and...

Ya and more than likely a licensed aircraft engineer certifying aircraft will be protected,look up the definition of an engineer.do you really think somebody troubleshooting a fault with an aircraft doesn't have to apply physics or maths and other trained subjects as solutions??

As somebody who has an engineering degree and an aircraft engineers license that the theory in studying these for application /practical use is similar,those 4 page foolscap answers to maths laplace transforms in college are useless and remember a pass in an aviation exam subject is 75% not 40% like college and getting benefit of the doubt in some cases.

kona

anothernight wrote: »

I suppose you feel sorry for many engineers then. You know, the ones that actually have to design and test stuff using their knowledge of physics.

The sooner the title is protected, like in several countries, the better. Pretend to be a solicitor and you can be done for fraud. Pretend to be an engineer and...

So what is the definition of a engineer ? I feel sorry for engineers that sit behind a desk drawing things in cad etc but ask them to use their hands and they are found wanting.

It takes longer to get the qualifications to certify aircraft than it does to get a degree in engineering from trinners.

Borzoi

kona wrote: »

So what is the definition of a engineer ? I feel sorry for engineers that sit behind a desk drawing things in cad etc but ask them to use their hands and they are found wanting.

So do I, but a professional engineer it comes as part of the territory. Having said that I'm also the guy who's called in to solve the problems the technicians can't.

It takes longer to get the qualifications to certify aircraft than it does to get a degree in engineering from trinners.

So do many apprenticeships. Length of course doesn't directly correlate with responsibility, ability, talent, knowledge or pay.

JuliusCaesar

kona wrote: »

So what is the definition of a engineer ?

I once met a guy at a party who told me he was an engineer. Oh yes, I said, what kind of engineer? Civil, electrical, what? He said he was a video engineer. He -er- fixed video recorders.

Traditional title on this side of the Atlantic, I think.

folbotcar

I think we need to be clear here. Almost anyone can work on aircraft in a variety of technical jobs without being an Engineer. In companies like for example Shannon Aerospace there are many who carry out aircraft maintenance tasks. But they are not referred to as Engineers. They are mechanics or technicians working under internal company approvals. They can tell random people down the pub whatever they like. But they're not Engineers unless they have a formal qualification Engineering degree or an Engineers licence issued by an aviation authority.

There is an implication in some of the posts above that somehow AMELs are somehow misrepresenting themselves as Engineers. I'm not an Engineer but I would surely be insulted at that notion.

The fact is that an aircraft Engineer is simply another form of Engineer. To call them mechanic or technician is to completely misunderstand the nature of the job.

AMELs are fully entitled to call themselves Engineers because that is what they are.

Stovepipe

US A&P holders are referred to as AMTs these days and the only guy who can call himself an engineer without a degree and not be laughed at is an old-style train driver. Engineer as a title for a line maintenance person, like me, is a throwback to the UK's educational system, when the guy maintaining a ship's engine was called an engineer (and still is)but was not considered a "professional" because he did not have a degree. That is, the seperation between clean-hands professions like architect, civil engineer, lawyer and the black-hand gang down the engine room or the mine. My license and my work ID say "line maintenance engineer" and that's what I prefer to be called, just like my CPL says "pilot" and not aeroplane driver;-)

JuliusCaesar

JuliusCaesar wrote: »

I once met a guy at a party who told me he was an engineer. Oh yes, I said, what kind of engineer? Civil, electrical, what? He said he was a video engineer. He -er- fixed video recorders.

Traditional title on this side of the Atlantic, I think.

Someone who fixes video recorders is as scarce as hens' teeth and should definitely have an appropriate title:p. I have 2 nearly new vcr's and neither will play my old tapes. Wish I could get my hands on him!!!

munchkin_utd

inthehat wrote: »

Someone who fixes video recorders is as scare as hens' teeth and should definitely have an appropriate title:p. I have 2 nearly new vcr's and neither will play my old tapes. Wish I could get my hands on him!!!

indeed, but now they would be probably retrained as a "sky engineer" installing satelite systems.

anyhow, the point in hand is still that an engineer in the Boeing group where the OP has a notion he wants to work as "an engineer", will most likely be someone who designs the planes and not fix them or rivet them together.

quietsailor

Stovepipe wrote: »

US A&P holders are referred to as AMTs these days and the only guy who can call himself an engineer without a degree and not be laughed at is an old-style train driver. Engineer as a title for a line maintenance person, like me, is a throwback to the UK's educational system, when the guy maintaining a ship's engine was called an engineer (and still is)but was not considered a "professional" because he did not have a degree. That is, the seperation between clean-hands professions like architect, civil engineer, lawyer and the black-hand gang down the engine room or the mine. My license and my work ID say "line maintenance engineer" and that's what I prefer to be called, just like my CPL says "pilot" and not aeroplane driver;-)

I'd be careful throwing around prejudices there fella in case you get a few thrown right back at you - you might not like it.

Marine engineering is a degree level qualification. More than that it's supervised at international level (UN) rather than national level (UK/Ireland).

Marine engineers pass out from Cit and only then are they considered eligible to start professional training at sea. Once that training is complete they have further state exams - set to international standards - that they have to pass or they never work on a ship. Simple is that, no work arounds, no coming in sideways from another engineering degree, fail your class 4 and you don't work as a marine engineer - can you say that as an aircraft engineer?

kona

quietsailor wrote: »

I'd be careful throwing around prejudices there fella in case you get a few thrown right back at you - you might not like it.

Marine engineering is a degree level qualification. More than that it's supervised at international level (UN) rather than national level (UK/Ireland).

Marine engineers pass out from Cit and only then are they considered eligible to start professional training at sea. Once that training is complete they have further state exams - set to international standards - that they have to pass or they never work on a ship. Simple is that, no work arounds, no coming in sideways from another engineering degree, fail your class 4 and you don't work as a marine engineer - can you say that as an aircraft engineer?

He can actually.

This is some pissing contest lol.

anothernight

kona wrote: »

So what is the definition of a engineer ? I feel sorry for engineers that sit behind a desk drawing things in cad etc but ask them to use their hands and they are found wanting.

It takes longer to get the qualifications to certify aircraft than it does to get a degree in engineering from trinners.

In this case, see jamo2oo9's reply above. You might want to ask Engineers Ireland or the UK's Engineering Council where they draw the line between technicians and engineers. Maybe because none of the languages I speak* would call maintenance crew engineers, but I personally never thought of "certifying staff" (what EASA seems to call them in the part-66 document) as engineers. Not that my opinion matters much anyway. :P

For many engineers, using their hands isn't relevant to the job at all. I'm in automotive, but even though I can tell you quite a lot about how my side of things work, I only know the basics of car maintenance. Why? Because I'm not a mechanic. But if enough things go wrong often enough from the mechanics' and market's perspective, my team and I will be the ones asked to redesign and fix the issue. Likewise, my OH has many years of experience in engineering... computer engineering that is. Where should he use his hands now? :pac:

It also takes longer to become a surgeon. That's irrelevant.


*Apart from English!

quietsailor

kona wrote: »

He can actually.

This is some pissing contest lol.

No contest lad. Sorry you took it that way - I'm sick of engineers knocking each other, there are plenty of things I can say to knock aircraft "engineers" but I'm not. As far as I'm concerned none of us should call ourselves engineers without chartership and even at that chartership should have a deliberate practical component. Make it tougher than it is now to call ourselves engineers

kona

quietsailor wrote: »

No contest lad. Sorry you took it that way - I'm sick of engineers knocking each other, there are plenty of things I can say to knock aircraft "engineers" but I'm not. As far as I'm concerned none of us should call ourselves engineers without chartership and even at that chartership should have a deliberate practical component. Make it tougher than it is now to call ourselves engineers

Who the **** are you calling lad?

A320

anothernight wrote: »

I

*Apart from English!

What do you want a medal????

anothernight

A320 wrote: »

What do you want a medal????

My point was that only in English that I know of are technicians, electricians and mechanics called engineers. I can't comment on whether Icelandic does it too, or Swahili. What a weird conclusion you got there.

Stovepipe

I'm not slagging marine engineers in the slightest! If you read what I posted, I said "was", not is and I was referring to the origin of "engineer" for a non-degree holder. I'm perfectly aware of their qualifications and the effort it takes to get there.No pissing contest from me.
let's move on, shall we?

quietsailor

kona wrote: »

Who the **** are you calling lad?

Er you? I quoted you! How did you miss the quote?

quietsailor

Stovepipe wrote: »

I'm not slagging marine engineers in the slightest! If you read what I posted, I said "was", not is and I was referring to the origin of "engineer" for a non-degree holder. I'm perfectly aware of their qualifications and the effort it takes to get there.No pissing contest from me.
let's move on, shall we?

There's no point in directing the "no pissing contest" line at me - someone else started that & I replied to them I'm not starting one, just asking that you (Stovepipe) stop knocking other disciplines. Why don't you ask the other poster to knock off the pissing contest stuff?

I went back and re-read what you posted and it says "was (and still is)" - that's present tense. If you meant otherwise, fine, but be clear about it.
It's boards - threads pop up on the main page and are read by EVERYONE sitewidenot just the folks in this forum.


Moving onto something else kona said aircraft engineers have the same international rather than national certification similar to marine engineers - what's the body supervising it called? I'm interested because a friend is looking to take the aeronautical engineering degree in UL

jamo2oo9

I'm currently doing the course in Aeronautical Engineering in UL and once I finish the course, I'll graduate with a BEng in Aeronautical Engineering. You have the option of doing a Masters, PhD course or go into the industry and get a job.

In order to have the status of Chartered Engineer status in Ireland, you need to have a degree in Masters or higher. You can do those in UL or elsewhere abroad like Cranfield in Manchester or Embry Riddle in Florida (only go there if you have lots of big bucks in your pocket!).

jamo2oo9

As far as I'm aware, there is no international certification to become an aeronautical engineer worldwide. It only applies to maintenance engineers on aircraft.

kona

quietsailor wrote: »

Er you? I quoted you! How did you miss the quote?

Well I find it condescending so don't ever call me that again.

The body that looks after the standards in Europe is easa under part 147.

This is edited because what I had written wasn't inline with the charter.

Stovepipe

I'm not knocking any other discipline. If you (QS) took that from what I said, then you are very wrong. I have friends in many differing trades and professions and usually slag them off over a pint and they return the favour! EASA regulates line maintenance qualifications, as well as pilots' quals. EASA documentation is very dense and akin to reading the phone book so if you have a friend wanting to convert over, he should contact the IAA for advice.

folbotcar

Not used to defending any form of Engineer. As a mere pilot with a relative who is an Engineer and who has spent far too much time working with Engineers I'm usually the patsy over a pint who gets slagged off for being a dreamer.

But can we agree that Aeronautical Engineeers, Aircraft Engineers and Marine Engineers are all Engineers of one sort or other. Plus Civil and Mechanical?

Peace?

quietsailor

kona wrote: »

Well I find it condescending so don't ever call me that again.

The body that looks after the standards in Europe is easa under part 147.

This is edited because what I had written wasn't inline with the charter.

2 things to answer here;

Lad is a turn of phrase - I use it when talking to younger/older/male/female/casual acquaintance/friend so it's not a condescending phrase - you took it the wrong way. Sorry if I ruffled your feathers.

As regards the EASA qualifications that's not what you alluded to when you first answered me. I said Marine engineering is set to an international standard (UN) and you said aeronautical engineering is the same - what's the international standard?

A320

quietsailor wrote: »

2 things to answer here;

Lad is a turn of phrase - I use it when talking to younger/older/male/female/casual acquaintance/friend so it's not a condescending phrase - you took it the wrong way. Sorry if I ruffled your feathers.

As regards the EASA qualifications that's not what you alluded to when you first answered me. I said Marine engineering is set to an international standard (UN) and you said aeronautical engineering is the same - what's the international standard?

ICAO,Which originates from the exact UN you said marine engineering standards exist

kona

quietsailor wrote: »

2 things to answer here;

Lad is a turn of phrase - I use it when talking to younger/older/male/female/casual acquaintance/friend so it's not a condescending phrase - you took it the wrong way. Sorry if I ruffled your feathers.

As regards the EASA qualifications that's not what you alluded to when you first answered me. I said Marine engineering is set to an international standard (UN) and you said aeronautical engineering is the same - what's the international standard?

It is a condescending phrase, you also find it's a certain type of person that uses it.
So stop letting yourself down.

lord lucan

Can we all get back to the subject of aviation/Boeing engineering please and keep it civil. Any more off topic chatter and debates over terminology/language will be met with warnings.

quietsailor

A320 wrote: »

ICAO,Which originates from the exact UN you said marine engineering standards exist

Thanks for that, he's looking for career paths after he graduates so that site looks useful.

What I couldn't find though is how they set the standards for aeronautical engineering worldwide - they seem more to be a CPD style training ie add ons AFTER you graduate. From reading it I can't see how they're exams are a "if you fail this you can never work on an airplane" style exams

quietsailor

Stovepipe wrote: »

I'm not knocking any other discipline. If you (QS) took that from what I said, then you are very wrong. I have friends in many differing trades and professions and usually slag them off over a pint and they return the favour! EASA regulates line maintenance qualifications, as well as pilots' quals. EASA documentation is very dense and akin to reading the phone book so if you have a friend wanting to convert over, he should contact the IAA for advice.

Hmm it might not be as easy as he thinks then. Cheers - I'll tell him to to think long and hard about it

quietsailor

jamo2oo9 wrote: »

I'm currently doing the course in Aeronautical Engineering in UL and once I finish the course, I'll graduate with a BEng in Aeronautical Engineering. You have the option of doing a Masters, PhD course or go into the industry and get a job.

In order to have the status of Chartered Engineer status in Ireland, you need to have a degree in Masters or higher. You can do those in UL or elsewhere abroad like Cranfield in Manchester or Embry Riddle in Florida (only go there if you have lots of big bucks in your pocket!).

Surely it doesn't have to be an aeronautical masters/phd though? I can achieve a masters/phd in mechanical/energy/process building on the marine degree.