Priorities with Road Building in relation to ring roads

veryangryman

Thirty something here just interested in the reasons for half-built ring roads up and down the country and why the first half was done where it was done etc. Few examples..

Cork: SRR done long time before NRR. my understanding is that southside is more affluent in this city, plus access to airport and port took priority.

Limerick: Again south road done first. Not really sure with this, would have thought access to Shannon/Galway would have taken priority. Why mainly south city now DC? Politics?

Kilkenny: I guess the potential completion of the ring only really benefits local traffic, the built section covers midlanders en route to Waterford.


Anyway, with respect to these (and others), do you think that the first half was prioritised for the right reasons or was there political interference and the like a cause of it. I'm not old enough to remember most of the planning in these roads.

L1011

There was a list read out by the then Transport Minister in the Dail in the early 1980s, pre-NRA, of towns prioritised for "bypasses". The majority of these ring roads would have been on that list.

As it was left up to councils to build them, local political issues as well as funding definitely came to the core.

Limerick's "bypass" included the Condell Road, designed to use an existing bridge; Carrick On Shannon's "bypass" used the existing bridge, New Ross's "bypass" used the existing bridge - starting to notice a pattern here?

Of the towns on the list practically none of the roads built could count as bypasses now - Letterkenny and Carrick being the worst, as retail development has subsumed them in to the town centre!

AugustusMinimus

The original New Ross bypass is a complete joke.

The South Ring Road was built first in Cork because Cork is much more developed South of the Lee. Other reasons include requiring a South Ring Road to facilitate the Jack Lynch Tunnel and the topography being much more suitable for road building. A "North ring road" of sorts has also been in place in the North side since the early 80s.

The North Ring Road will be a more expensive affair with a number of tunnels and a viaduct in the western section being required. The Northern Section will most likely be built in and around the same time as the M20 Southern Section.


The biggest problem with Ring Roads and bypasses in my mind are 2 fold.

1. The building of inferior junctions between ring roads and the local road network which cause huge traffic jams.

2. The divide in cities and towns between what's outside the ring road and what is inside it. Adequate access needs to be provided for motorists, cyclist and pedestrians to be able to access homes, businesses and facilities on either side of ring roads and bypasses without having to go miles out of their way. This means many more flyover/pedestrian bridges without access to the ring road / bypass itself.]


No 2 is especially poignant with the South Ring Road in Cork. It has created a huge man made divide on communities either side of it. This along with the sea and various hill creates a huge barrier between travelling north and south across this road.

Carawaystick

The op left Dublin out of the unfinished ring road too;)

Corks ring grew slowly with the n27 dual carriageway from the elysian tower out to the snotty bridge first, then the section of n40 to Douglas past the dump and vernon mount.

I can't remember which was next the tunnel or the bit to the Brandon road?

The north ring got built to a much lower standard from the silver springs to Blackpool due to the time it was built, and budgetary constraints of building up a steep hill

As it is the n40 joins all the primary routes bar the n20, and takes a reasonable route largely dictated by geography. much further south would have you going over serious hills costing serious money


There was a small scale mind in the 80&90s where road schemes were much shorter,
So the cork ring was built piecemeal
And I think the Kilkenny one was too, with sections from one rab to the next being built and then extended

It's not a uniquely irish thing, Bordeaux had a C ring when I was driving by it in the 90s, with the eastern side having a missing gap.
Trier has single carriageway sections linking autobahn around it and the ring around Brussels is a c with a gap too

It's not just express roads that seperate urban places though, train lines do too
Like around bayside and howth junction in Dublin, or in Arklow, with only 2 roads linking either side of the tracks

Victor

veryangryman wrote: »

half-built ring roads

A full 360-degree ring road is rarely needed or desirable. Often, cost:benefit ratios will influence what gets built and in what order.

Cork: SRR done long time before NRR. my understanding is that southside is more affluent in this city, plus access to airport and port took priority.

Yes, more affluent, but very much less accessible to the rest of the country. All traffic from Ringaskiddy (N28), the Airport (N27 / R600), West Cork and parts of Kerry (N22 & N71 axes) and two thirds of the city to the rest of the country was via the city centre. On affordability grounds, it had to be built piecemeal. Building the proposed north ring road only improves transport to the N20 corridor. As mentioned, physical geography played a big part. I think there is an element of the councils / NRA engaging in specification inflation in proposing the entire NRR.

Limerick: Again south road done first. Not really sure with this, would have thought access to Shannon/Galway would have taken priority. Why mainly south city now DC? Politics?

The south ring allows Shannon/Galway to connect to everything beyond Limerick. There is no major route directly north from Limerick and I suspect ground conditions are poor along hte river. There isn't the space to build a proper ring road north of the city and keep it south of the Shannon - not unless you want to build three bridges. Such a road would fail to efficiently connect with the N20, N21, N24 or N69. You would end up spending €200m+ to only connect to Parteen and Moyross. The Childers Road and Condell Road made the project doable in bit-sized pieces. I wouldn't build any ring road north of Limerick. I wouldn't even build it to Moyross. Clare County Council would merely use it as an excuse to build houses in inappropriate locations.

Kilkenny: I guess the potential completion of the ring only really benefits local traffic, the built section covers midlanders en route to Waterford.

Kilenny is different to Cork and Limerick. It is a lot smaller and importantly, is not coastal. Cork and Limerick are the lowest practical points to cross their respective rivers.I don't think it needs a full ring road - it would be 'lovely' but would just facilitate more development on the west side that might not be appropriate. Bypassing Ballyragget might be more appropriate. I think retaining the N10 in both the Carlow and Waterford directions might have been a mistake.

Anyway, with respect to these (and others), do you think that the first half was prioritised for the right reasons or was there political interference and the like a cause of it. I'm not old enough to remember most of the planning in these roads.

I don't think politics was particularly important in selecting one route over another for these projects. It may have influenced the exact routing, type of construction and phasing.

I'm not sure what you mean by "first half" - do you specifically mean the Kilkenny Ring Road? Or all three.

veryangryman

Victor wrote: »

I'm not sure what you mean by "first half" - do you specifically mean the Kilkenny Ring Road? Or all three.

Well all three have talk (if not planning) for another half, that's why I call the existing "the first half". My thinking is that some day (maybe not in our lifetime), the ring will be completed in all three. What gets done with them vis a vis inappropriate development alongside or nearby is a real concern, but this didn't stop them before.

Aard

The nomenclature can blur the function of these roads. Is a "ring road" supposed to act as a bypass for non-local traffic, as a way of facilitating local traffic without going through the centre, or a way of improving access to some more suburban/semi-rural locations around the town? Also, changes in traffic patterns after construction of the road, in addition to subsequent residential/commercial development will change the function of the road. What once functioned well as a bypass with many local access points might be completely unsuitable for task once a supermarket gets built just off one of the roundabouts. Many once-appropriate ringroads/bypasses have been undermined by, IMHO, inappropriate development near their interchanges.

I don't know about the original planning of these roads, in the sense that they've been on both official and unofficial plans for decades. But it doesn't really matter what the situation was ten years ago (or more). These roads will only fulfil their function as planned as long as the cities they've been planned for don't change. Which is impossible. So as the nature of the city and its region change, so too will the function of the ring roads/bypasses. For example I'd be fairly confident that Limerick's bypass won't change much in terms of what type of traffic it handles due to there being so much development space inside the ring road, as well as there being an accepted political perception that the city has thus far been developed in an uncoordinated sprawling manner. On the other hand, Cork's SRR has changed a lot, in terms of what traffic it must handle, since its inception and will continue to do so as the south side of the city continues to expand. Cork City (council area) population is declining too, suggesting even greater suburbanisation/decentralisation of the city. This will impact upon both the SRR and the need for an NRR as a decentralised population continue to make more complex journey patterns.

AugustusMinimus

Victor wrote: »

Yes, more affluent, but very much less accessible to the rest of the country. All traffic from Ringaskiddy (N28), the Airport (N27 / R600), West Cork and parts of Kerry (N22 & N71 axes) and two thirds of the city to the rest of the country was via the city centre. On affordability grounds, it had to be built piecemeal. Building the proposed north ring road only improves transport to the N20 corridor. As mentioned, physical geography played a big part. I think there is an element of the councils / NRA engaging in specification inflation in proposing the entire NRR.

I get the sense that the NRR will be broken up into 2 parts. West and East. East will be built with M20 sounds and will from a connector road to Hollyhill, to the M20/N40 junction and onto meeting the M8 at Glanmire. That extra section linking Hollyhill to the N40 will almost certainly be built, if just for Apple. IMO, the M20 could bring extra traffic and the N40 will be required to distribute this traffic more evenly across the city.

The western section is a different prospect. Will be put on the backburner until we have a sizeable public surplus again I think. It will involve a large viaduct and could be a costly adventure.

AugustusMinimus

Aard wrote: »

The nomenclature can blur the function of these roads. Is a "ring road" supposed to act as a bypass for non-local traffic, as a way of facilitating local traffic without going through the centre, or a way of improving access to some more suburban/semi-rural locations around the town? Also, changes in traffic patterns after construction of the road, in addition to subsequent residential/commercial development will change the function of the road. What once functioned well as a bypass with many local access points might be completely unsuitable for task once a supermarket gets built just off one of the roundabouts. Many once-appropriate ringroads/bypasses have been undermined by, IMHO, inappropriate development near their interchanges.

I don't know about the original planning of these roads, in the sense that they've been on both official and unofficial plans for decades. But it doesn't really matter what the situation was ten years ago (or more). These roads will only fulfil their function as planned as long as the cities they've been planned for don't change. Which is impossible. So as the nature of the city and its region change, so too will the function of the ring roads/bypasses. For example I'd be fairly confident that Limerick's bypass won't change much in terms of what type of traffic it handles due to there being so much development space inside the ring road, as well as there being an accepted political perception that the city has thus far been developed in an uncoordinated sprawling manner. On the other hand, Cork's SRR has changed a lot, in terms of what traffic it must handle, since its inception and will continue to do so as the south side of the city continues to expand. Cork City (council area) population is declining too, suggesting even greater suburbanisation/decentralisation of the city. This will impact upon both the SRR and the need for an NRR as a decentralised population continue to make more complex journey patterns.

I think of them like this.

M50: Ring road
N40: Ring road
N18/M7: Bypass
N25: Bypass

Given the topography of Cork, the N40 is a defacto urban motorway. 90% of journeys are local journeys. I would think the M50 is about the same. I would think this is a much lower percentage in terms of both the Limerick and Waterford bypasses. The tolls only enhance this position further.

marmurr1916

Aard wrote: »

The nomenclature can blur the function of these roads. Is a "ring road" supposed to act as a bypass for non-local traffic, as a way of facilitating local traffic without going through the centre, or a way of improving access to some more suburban/semi-rural locations around the town? Also, changes in traffic patterns after construction of the road, in addition to subsequent residential/commercial development will change the function of the road. What once functioned well as a bypass with many local access points might be completely unsuitable for task once a supermarket gets built just off one of the roundabouts. Many once-appropriate ringroads/bypasses have been undermined by, IMHO, inappropriate development near their interchanges.

I don't know about the original planning of these roads, in the sense that they've been on both official and unofficial plans for decades. But it doesn't really matter what the situation was ten years ago (or more). These roads will only fulfil their function as planned as long as the cities they've been planned for don't change. Which is impossible. So as the nature of the city and its region change, so too will the function of the ring roads/bypasses. For example I'd be fairly confident that Limerick's bypass won't change much in terms of what type of traffic it handles due to there being so much development space inside the ring road, as well as there being an accepted political perception that the city has thus far been developed in an uncoordinated sprawling manner. On the other hand, Cork's SRR has changed a lot, in terms of what traffic it must handle, since its inception and will continue to do so as the south side of the city continues to expand. Cork City (council area) population is declining too, suggesting even greater suburbanisation/decentralisation of the city. This will impact upon both the SRR and the need for an NRR as a decentralised population continue to make more complex journey patterns.

One of the major reasons for the decline in population in the Cork City Council area is the empty-nest syndrome.

There are large areas of the city where you have elderly couples (or elderly widow/ers) living in three-bedroom and larger houses because their kids have grown up and left.

During the property bubble, it wasn't feasible for many of these adult children to buy houses within the Cork city boundary (and also because there isn't much room within the city boundary for many large-scale housing developments) so they moved to places like Grange, Frankfield, Ballincollig, Carrigaline etc, all within County Cork but all either suburbs or dormitory towns for Cork city.

I think Cork city's population will eventually increase somewhat as the houses populated by the empty-nesters become available (as they die off) and are now more affordable to families with children.

These houses are often in more desirable parts of the city and are certainly closer for commuting to/from the city centre, while being reasonably close to the suburban shopping centres.

The road I grew up in is within the city part of Douglas and is now lived in mainly by the elderly parents of my former neighbours who, like myself, have grown up and moved on.

Only the minority of houses in the road are lived in by families with kids but most of them will come onto the market within the next 5-10 years as the parents of my peers die.