Tyre tread depth and road safety

Iwannahurl

There's an ad on radio currently, sponsored by the tyre trade association, announcing that the Garda Siochana will be checking tyre tread depth during Road Safety Week October 6-12.

The ITIA is referring to the initiative as a "retailer driven campaign".

Give the time and resources required, is this initiative likely to be a worthwhile and effective road safety campaign?

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/15389580500500640?url_ver=Z39.88-2003&rfr_id=ori:rid:crossref.org&rfr_dat=cr_pub%3dpubmed&#.VC5llmc7t8E

bazz26

Imo there are two ways of looking at this:

1. A lot of drivers out there so simply do not check the condition of their tyres at all. You know the type, the ones who need the NCT or a near death experience with a ditch to tell them their tyres need replacing.

2. Then the more cynical way of maybe the tyre trade trying to drum up business.

Iwannahurl

I look at my tyres frequently, but I don't check tread depth.

Is the annual NCT not enough for most people?

Isn't that what we're paying for?

Toyotafanboi

Iwannahurl wrote: »

I look at my tyres frequently, but I don't check tread depth.

Is the annual NCT not enough for most people?

Isn't that what we're paying for?

no and no.

hitting one pothole or kerb the wrong way is enough to make a tyre an imminent danger.

i can't understand how people have so little regard for tyres. if you actually observe tyres the next time you go through a supermarket car park, you will get a serious shock at the condition of most.

Alun

Toyotafanboi wrote: »

if you actually observe tyres the next time you go through a supermarket car park, you will get a serious shock at the condition of most.

This^^^ Plus what is most shocking is that the worst offenders seem to be fairy new high end cars. Some are really little more than slicks.

Mind you, the amount of unknown Chinese crap you see on lesser vehicles is also a cause for concern, regardless of how much tread is on them.

bazz26

Iwannahurl wrote: »

I look at my tyres frequently, but I don't check tread depth.

Is the annual NCT not enough for most people?

Isn't that what we're paying for?

The NCT is only a snapshot of roadworthiness at the particular time the car is tested. A lot can happen to your tyres between NCT tests. Drivers need to be more proactive in these matters rather than waiting for an encounter with a ditch or tree.

Zubeneschamali

Iwannahurl wrote: »

Is the annual NCT not enough for most people?

So, you go to the NCT and your tyres fail - how long have you been driving on less-than-legal tread depth? Weeks? Months? How many thousand km have you done on illegal tyres?

I think this campaign is not going to be effective, but not because the NCT means it is unnecessary: it will be ineffective because the Garda Siochana don't have the resources to police our roads for drivers so drunk they can barely see. How the feck are they going to flag a useful number of bad tyres?

No, they'll check a dozen cars for the cameras, and two attractive models will pull faces. Empty PR.

wiseoldelf34

tyre industry version of Arthurs day.cops have better things to be doing .
any responsible driver should check them every week.
but this is Ireland .land of the long finger brigade

Special Circumstances

Alun wrote: »

This^^^ Plus what is most shocking is that the worst offenders seem to be fairy new high end cars. Some are really little more than slicks.

Chance of slicks is directly proportional to the number of child seats.

corktina

when I was in India recently I remarked that the tyres on our car were more or less totally bald and our Host complained to the driver, who wandered over and gave them a kick with a puzzled look on his face....

Del2005

wiseoldelf34 wrote: »

tyre industry version of Arthurs day.cops have better things to be doing .
any responsible driver should check them every week.
but this is Ireland .land of the long finger brigade

If someone is driving a car with bald tyres the cops don't have better things to be doing, making our roads safe is one of the roles of the Gardai, as that is a dangerous vehicle that needs to be dealt with.

Its just a shame that they don't do more clampdowns, on vehicle safety, regardless of who is pushing it.

Iwannahurl

Toyotafanboi wrote: »

no and no.

hitting one pothole or kerb the wrong way is enough to make a tyre an imminent danger.

i can't understand how people have so little regard for tyres. if you actually observe tyres the next time you go through a supermarket car park, you will get a serious shock at the condition of most.

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

So, you go to the NCT and your tyres fail - how long have you been driving on less-than-legal tread depth? Weeks? Months? How many thousand km have you done on illegal tyres?

I think this campaign is not going to be effective, but not because the NCT means it is unnecessary: it will be ineffective because the Garda Siochana don't have the resources to police our roads for drivers so drunk they can barely see. How the feck are they going to flag a useful number of bad tyres?

No, they'll check a dozen cars for the cameras, and two attractive models will pull faces. Empty PR.

I'm referring only to tread depth here.

Our car sits on the driveway 95% of the time, so there's very little wear between NCTs.

Would you say that tread depth can deteriorate rapidly between tests, to the extent that Garda checks will reveal anything significant in terms of safety risk?

Zubeneschamali

Iwannahurl wrote: »

Would you say that tread depth can deteriorate rapidly between tests

Well, of course it can. I wear out a set of tyres a year, only get tested every two years.

Toyotafanboi

Iwannahurl wrote: »

Would you say that tread depth can deteriorate rapidly between tests, to the extent that Garda checks will reveal anything significant in terms of safety risk?

absolutely. a slow puncture, a pothole mis-aligning your tracking or a badly failed suspension bushing could see a tyre being stripped of several mm of thread very quickly.

not to mention pinching a tyre between a kerb and the wheel rim can cause a very dangerous bulge (which can lead to blow outs) or take a nick out of the side wall which is similarly dangerous.

these things can happen any time.

Iwannahurl

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Well, of course it can. I wear out a set of tyres a year, only get tested every two years.

I have to do the NCT every year now.

Would you say you drive more that the average number of km?

If it's the case that only a small percentage of fatal and serious injury crashes are due to vehicle defects (see quotes below) and that tyre tread depth is just one possible defect in that category, then what is the likely impact of Garda time and resources being spent on that specific issue?

I'm not saying it shouldn't be done, by the way. I'm just wondering how effective it is as a road safety intervention.

The EU Commission has indicated that defective vehicles contribute directly or substantially to between 5% and 10% of all road traffic collisions in the European Union.

...

In Ireland less than 1% of Road Traffic Collisions were as a result of a defective vehicle being the primary contributory factor (Road Collision Facts 2008).

http://www.rsa.ie/Documents/Vehicle%20Std%20Leg/Consultations/Written_off_Vehicle_Consultation%20Final%20draft%2022%20Dec.pdf

In New Zealand, 2.5 percent of fatal and injury crashes, have defects that would be detected by a WoF inspection, such as bald tyres, among the factors causing the crash. Other contributing factors could be speed, alcohol or loss of control. Only 0.5 percent of all fatal and injury crashes have vehicle factors cited as the sole cause of the crash. These figures come from actual New Zealand crash data.

http://www.transport.govt.nz/land/vehiclelicensingreformconsultation/faqsaboutwofreformandvehiclesafety/

Studies show that the vehicle itself is the sole cause of an accident only about 2 percent of the time.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=123610366

Vehicle defects are a factor in only 2.8 per cent of [fatal crashes], with tyres mostly to blame (1.5 per cent) followed by dodgy brakes (0.7 per cent).

The overriding message? It's not your car or the "road conditions" that are most likely to kill you. It's your own driving.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/road-safety/8702111/How-do-accidents-happen.html

Toyotafanboi

all your statistics are for "fatal" accidents. imo for to die in a car you either have to be going really fast or someone has to hit you really fast, speeding i think they call it.

what about non fatal accidents? i'd wager the car being the cause is much higher.

go into a roundabout @ 50km/h on a set of bald tyres in the rain, you could spin out easily, wreck your car and maybe break your wrist or something. it won't be recorded in "fatal" statistics, but the car was the cause.

come up a motorway off ramp into traffic on a set of chinese ditch finders and have to brake hard and you could rear end the car in front and set off the "domino" effect with two or three cars. you can ruin 3 cars, have a good few whiplash claims etc, but it won't make the fatal statistics.

if you think about it logically, any component in a car can fail while driving and doesn't immediately jeopardise the vehicles integrity... the engine can stop, the lights can stop, the wipers can stop, the exhaust can fall off and the car is still stable, but if a tyre goes, you're all over the road fighting for control.

i'd like to know how many accidents are recorded in Ireland per year and of that number, how many were fatal. that would give a better indication.

Iwannahurl

Toyotafanboi wrote: »

all your statistics are for "fatal" accidents.

Look again.

Vic_08

Toyotafanboi wrote: »

all your statistics are for "fatal" accidents. imo for to die in a car you either have to be going really fast or someone has to hit you really fast, speeding i think they call it.

what about non fatal accidents? i'd wager the car being the cause is much higher.

go into a roundabout @ 50km/h on a set of bald tyres in the rain, you could spin out easily, wreck your car and maybe break your wrist or something. it won't be recorded in "fatal" statistics, but the car was the cause.

come up a motorway off ramp into traffic on a set of chinese ditch finders and have to brake hard and you could rear end the car in front and set off the "domino" effect with two or three cars. you can ruin 3 cars, have a good few whiplash claims etc, but it won't make the fatal statistics.

if you think about it logically, any component in a car can fail while driving and doesn't immediately jeopardise the vehicles integrity... the engine can stop, the lights can stop, the wipers can stop, the exhaust can fall off and the car is still stable, but if a tyre goes, you're all over the road fighting for control.

i'd like to know how many accidents are recorded in Ireland per year and of that number, how many were fatal. that would give a better indication.

Take your real world knowledge and go away, people on the internet have statistics. Bald tyres are not in any way unsafe, the figures don't lie. :rolleyes:

Chimaera

IMO, there's a lot to be said for giving Traffic Wardens the authority to issue tickets for worn/defective tyres.

visual

Should be checking for Chinese tyres some are worse than bald branded tyres

meeeeh

Iwannahurl wrote: »

I'm referring only to tread depth here.

Our car sits on the driveway 95% of the time, so there's very little wear between NCTs.

Would you say that tread depth can deteriorate rapidly between tests, to the extent that Garda checks will reveal anything significant in terms of safety risk?

There is a chance that your tyres are bad anyway even if they have enough thread. Sometimes you would see on a tyre plenty of profile even if it is over five years old. Because of weather and I don't know what else even the best tyre can get hard and not lose any profile but it has absolutely no grip.

My parents have tyre dealership in another country so it's part of my upbringing that I notice lack of thread, only one working lightbulb and so on and the state of tyres in this country is shocking. I would not benefit in any way by this measure but all I can say is thank Christ. It should be an offence to drive around with less than 3mm of thread.

bazz26

Iwannahurl wrote: »

I'm referring only to tread depth here.

Our car sits on the driveway 95% of the time, so there's very little wear between NCTs.

Would you say that tread depth can deteriorate rapidly between tests, to the extent that Garda checks will reveal anything significant in terms of safety risk?

Rubber perishes over time too so just because the car sits up a lot does not mean the tyres are perfect. You will see cracks forming on the walls at which stage it's time to ditch them ( no pun intended). That is why tyres have the production date stamped on the side of them and anything over 5 years old is a NCT advisory.

Iwannahurl

Toyotafanboi wrote: »

go into a roundabout @ 50km/h

Why would anyone want to do that?

Toyotafanboi

Iwannahurl wrote: »

Why would anyone want to do that?

it's very easy to enter some of the larger motorway peripheral roundabouts etc at that kind of speed.

hoodie6029

The amount of accidents in Dublin this evening after a spell of rain says a lot about the state of tyres here. A dozen of so accidents in few hours is ridiculous. This campaign can only be a good thing.

CJhaughey

hoodie6029 wrote: »

The amount of accidents in Dublin this evening after a spell of rain says a lot about the state of tyres here. A dozen of so accidents in few hours is ridiculous. This campaign can only be a good thing.

Prolonged dry weather and sudden rain produce very slippery surfaces, the oil in the pores of the road fill and the oil floats to the surface leaving it very slick.

Charlie19

Is it going to be three points on the licence now for no nct? I caught the end of an add on the radio today.

It wouldn't be a bad thing, especially with the amount of cars I've seen with tests out by 6 months or more but there would still have to be some common sense shown for a vehicle that is awaiting a test or recently failed for something fairly minor.

Witcher

visual wrote: »

Should be checking for Chinese tyres some are worse than bald branded tyres

Nothing beats an oul set of Triangles..fare daycent :pac:

visual

Blay wrote: »

Nothing beats an oul set of Triangles..fare daycent :pac:

Had the pleasure of buying a car fitted with triangle tyres. Dry was ok but wet was a challenge to kept it on the road and impossible to stop at anything more than a gentle brake.

I recon a lot of tips in yesterday rain was due to plastic Chinese tyres

Iwannahurl

Toyotafanboi wrote: »

it's very easy to enter some of the larger motorway peripheral roundabouts etc at that kind of speed.

There's part of the problem: Irish roundabout design (and junction design generally, perhaps). Roundabouts are meant to reduce speed significantly, which is why they are safer than other junction types when properly designed. There's a roundabout in Galway at the end of the M/N6 where there were numerous crashes (at least one serious and possibly fatal) because of poor design. It had to be modified, and even that did not fix the problem, iirc.

Of course some motorists like to take the "racing line" around multi-lane roundabouts, which does not help.

hoodie6029 wrote: »

The amount of accidents in Dublin this evening after a spell of rain says a lot about the state of tyres here. A dozen of so accidents in few hours is ridiculous. This campaign can only be a good thing.

Several years ago I had the misfortune to be a passenger in a car driven by a 'boy racer' who was actually old enough to know better. Older than me anyway! It was a Golf GTI with some sort of fancy traction control. He deliberately drove through roundabouts at speed, cornering hard and deliberately trying to get the traction control to kick in.

On other multi-lane roundabouts in Galway, in unsuitable locations and too large anyway, an anti-skid surface has been added. This allows motorists to approach at speeds well in excess of the 50 km/h limit, and then go through the roundabout at close to the speed limit, before accelerating again on the other side.

In other words, if there's a traction problem it's not due to bad tyres but to bad driving.

Which deserves the greater attention from AGS?

Iwannahurl

visual wrote: »

Had the pleasure of buying a car fitted with triangle tyres. Dry was ok but wet was a challenge to kept it on the road and impossible to stop at anything more than a gentle brake.

I recon a lot of tips in yesterday rain was due to plastic Chinese tyres

Rubbish tyres is another issue of course.

How can the Gardai deal with that, if the tread depths are adequate and the tyres are legal?

visual

Iwannahurl wrote: »

Rubbish tyres is another issue of course.

How can the Gardai deal with that, if the tread depths are adequate and the tyres are legal?

It isn't another issue if traction and safety are what this is about.

Unless its a rubber stamping excise like doing road tax check points on motorways then the only thing that matters is 1.6mm grove in rubberised plastic

RSA need to get off there asses and seek to improve road surfaces and quality of tyres. Instead of relying on Garda fines points and courts

Iwannahurl

visual wrote: »

It isn't another issue if traction and safety are what this is about.

What this is about is AGS responding to a trade association's "road safety" initiative to go out an measure tyre tread depth.

If there is no law against cheap plastic tyres what can AGS do?

Chimaera

visual wrote: »

It isn't another issue if traction and safety are what this is about.

Unless its a rubber stamping excise like doing road tax check points on motorways then the only thing that matters is 1.6mm grove in rubberised plastic

RSA need to get off there asses and seek to improve road surfaces and quality of tyres. Instead of relying on Garda fines points and courts

A public information campaign by the RSA on what to look for when buying tyres would be a good idea but I think the RSA's goodwill fund is empty after all those "Speed Kills" campaigns.

The new rating system for tyres is a step in the right direction, it just needs to be publicised more. Some side-by-side tests done by an independent body and shown in ads would help too. Something like taking a set of tyres with a C rating for wet braking and an A rating and show the difference in stopping distance.

There's a lot of ignorance out there about how important tyres really are to basic vehicle safety and it's going to take work to fix that.

Alun

Blay wrote: »

Nothing beats an oul set of Triangles..fare daycent :pac:

Had some rather ironically named Triangle Talon (i.e. implying grip!) tyres on our MX-5 when we bought it, and they were lethal in the wet or anything even remotely resembling damp conditions. Got them taken off and replaced by Rainsport 3's as quickly as humanely possible. You'd almost imagine they don't have rain in China or something :pac:

Iwannahurl

Chimaera wrote: »

A public information campaign by the RSA on what to look for when buying tyres would be a good idea but I think the RSA's goodwill fund is empty after all those "Speed Kills" campaigns.

The new rating system for tyres is a step in the right direction, it just needs to be publicised more. Some side-by-side tests done by an independent body and shown in ads would help too. Something like taking a set of tyres with a C rating for wet braking and an A rating and show the difference in stopping distance.

There's a lot of ignorance out there about how important tyres really are to basic vehicle safety and it's going to take work to fix that.

Something like this, perhaps, except with the focus on tyres?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BpZRxo3EWAc

Atlantic Dawn

Has anyone ever got fined for having bald tyres or even is there a fine for bald tyres? Perhaps 2 penalty points would be a good idea.

slimjimmc

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

Has anyone ever got fined for having bald tyres or even is there a fine for bald tyres? Perhaps 2 penalty points would be a good idea.

Plenty of people get fined, usually around €150 per dud tyre. It's an offence under the "Road Traffic (Construction, Equipment and Use of Vehicles) Regulations, 1963"
amended.
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1991/en/si/0358.html

Depending on the circumstances it may also fall under "Driving dangerously defective vehicle" which is a mandatory court appearance with 5 points and possible fine on conviction.

porsche boy

Iwannahurl wrote: »

I look at my tyres frequently, but I don't check tread depth.

Is the annual NCT not enough for most people?

Isn't that what we're paying for?

it's that attitude that has so many cars on the road in ****e. NCT is not worth the paper it's printed on. Applus who operate the NCT is a private company and their first objective is profitability, second or third is standards.

Check your levels, lights, tyres and tyre pressures weekly, you never know when it could save your life.

derry

Bald Tires killed lots of people in the past as they lacked the cash to buy new tires and the tires in the old days were crap

The Modern era Ireland 2000 period onwards people tended to get newwer better cars and shops would also sell very good condition second hand hardly used tires at knockdown prices as often people wanted better tires than the normal specs .

The 2010 era and the new poorer Ireland and the fleet is becoming older and the tires on new cars were often Chinese death traps even with threads and now comes the multiple accidents at roundabouts and similar when there is few drops of rain .

The Tire thread campaign is vain attempt to get people to look tires but people got other problems where to get the next meal or next mortgage repayment .
Its not todays problem lack of thread it gonna be tomorrows problem more and more as Ireland becomes more like the basket cases like Greece and Spain and Portugal and joins the PIIGS in the economic toilet that the EU has made for us .

In Spain its becoming more popular to see cars on Blocks as the theft of tires from parked cars becomes more interesting with the economic woes.

Welcome to the new down turn where you wont even have a bald tire to pi$$ on top off as they turn the old tires into recycled roads
Derry

FullblownRose

It's not a safety *initiative* if it penalises people rather than promotes better awareness. Fining or otherwise penalising people does nothing to improve safety, it only causes hardship and resentment.

FullblownRose

Really, why are the gardai enforcing this anyway? They're meant to be under resourced, but they're being deployed to investigate the tyres on motorists cars?

Spook_ie

Iwannahurl wrote: »

I have to do the NCT every year now.

Would you say you drive more that the average number of km?

If it's the case that only a small percentage of fatal and serious injury crashes are due to vehicle defects (see quotes below) and that tyre tread depth is just one possible defect in that category, then what is the likely impact of Garda time and resources being spent on that specific issue?

I'm not saying it shouldn't be done, by the way. I'm just wondering how effective it is as a road safety intervention.

Tyre tread is only of use on damp or wet roads, that's why race cars use slicks on dry race tracks, given that you are unlikely to be able to change tyres mid journey if it rains you need tread on the tyres to allow for cornering, acceleration and braking.

It's probably true that single factor accidents are a rarity, and it should be a fair assumption that a high percentage are caused by failing to stop in the distance allowed or by their performance in cornering by the driver, worn, even only part worn tyres increase stopping distances dramatically in damp or wet road conditions and would also affect higher speed cornering.

These tests showed an increase of around 40% stopping distance at 80Kph

http://www.rospa.com/roadsafety/adviceandinformation/vehiclesafety/tyresafety/tread-depth.aspx

Del2005

FullblownRose wrote: »

It's not a safety *initiative* if it penalises people rather than promotes better awareness. Fining or otherwise penalising people does nothing to improve safety, it only causes hardship and resentment.

It's an easy penalty to avoid, look at your tyres, so it's only penalising lazy people who are a danger to you and every other road user.

Tyres and breaks are the biggest safety features on a vehicle, anyone driving with defective ones needs a significant reminder of how important they are if not legal.

Del2005

FullblownRose wrote: »

Really, why are the gardai enforcing this anyway? They're meant to be under resourced, but they're being deployed to investigate the tyres on motorists cars?

One of their roles is to protect the public, defective tyres are dangerous.

Joe 90

Iwannahurl wrote: »

Why would anyone want to do that?

It's only 30 mph, for God's sake.

ectoraige

FullblownRose wrote: »

It's not a safety *initiative* if it penalises people rather than promotes better awareness. Fining or otherwise penalising people does nothing to improve safety, it only causes hardship and resentment.

Stop looking at it in black-and-white. Effective road safety policy requires a wide range of measures from road design to road maintenance, from car design to car maintenance and from driver education and testing. The system should be robust enough that a single non-deliberate failure is unlikely to result in injury. While government, the RSA, and the Gardaí have their responsibilities, so do the drivers. Some drivers will respond to awareness campaigns, and take it on-board when they get behind the wheel.

Others however couldn't give a toss and either think they know better, or tune-out and don't give safety a second thought. It's these people that campaigns like this are aimed at. In a multifaceted system different approaches are required to complement each other, you can't just focus on one aspect.