Grass v Silage

Muckit

Watching the weather there one evening and Evelyn was saying that the leaves start falling off the trees around the same time every year regardless of the weather.

It just got me thinking. We're into Oct now. Still sh*t loads of grass, but how is it's nutritional value holding up? At what point dies it drop below that of silage wraps taken out in say May?

Grass still fairly high dm with there having been no rain but then dews are heavier at night and take longer to dry up come morning. Yet cattle very dry behind - it's not running through them.

So regardless of grass reserves left, is there a 'magic day' in the autumn where grass fails to deliver the same or more of a punch than silage? When should you say stop and house?

Again alot of factors. Are they beef/dairy? Breeding or feeding?

What are people's views on this?

freedominacup

Muckit wrote: »

Watching the weather there one evening and Evelyn was saying that the leaves start falling off the trees around the same time every year regardless of the weather.

It just got me thinking. We're into Oct now. Still sh*t loads of grass, but how is it's nutritional value holding up? At what point dies it drop below that of silage wraps taken out in say May?

Grass still fairly high dm with there having been no rain but then dews are heavier at night and take longer to dry up come morning. Yet cattle very dry behind - it's not running through them.

So regardless of grass reserves left, is there a 'magic day' in the autumn where grass fails to deliver the same or more of a punch than silage? When should you say stop and house?

Again alot of factors. Are they beef/dairy? Breeding or feeding?

What are people's views on this?

Allowing that conditions remain favourable you start to close up now in heavy ground up to the 15th of the month down this end. With covers building you need a grass budget and graze until your afc is down to around 600 I think. Regardless of how good your silage is grass is cheaper. I wouldn't be any expert on heavy ground but I assume with cattle on outfarms where taking animals on and off paddocks is not straightforward the sums change as poaching isn't in anyone's interest, you, the land or the cattle. Moving every two days we had incalf heifers grazing with no meal until mid Nov last year. Could have kept them out much longer if we had been able to build covers last autumn.

Mad4simmental

Sumthing I was thinking latley to. Nabougher lost two cows to staggers this time last year so be on the look out even if the days and grass appear to be good i think suger levels drop anyway.

Having said that what a year. Grass grass grass everywhere here at the moment.

Sam Kade

A few years ago they did tests on this same subject, the conclusion was that any saved grass grazed after Dec 31st had very low feed value. Of course if you have half a crop of silage on a field and half of it rotten at the base it won't be great.

Back in 09 I had bullocks grazing until Christmas they were grazing after grass (cut the end of Aug) from Oct-Dec and the weather was a disaster constant rain every day yet they thrived like wildfire during those 3 months.

Muckit

So would it be true to say that leafy grass up until middle of Dec is better than or equivalent to the feed value of silage taken off the same ground earlier in the year? Regardless of grass dm? And not taking utilisation into account, we're just purely talking about feed value.

ganmo

Mad4simmental wrote: »

Sumthing I was thinking latley to. Nabougher lost two cows to staggers this time last year so be on the look out even if the days and grass appear to be good i think suger levels drop anyway.

Having said that what a year. Grass grass grass everywhere here at the moment.

Sugar content in grass is directly linked to the hours of direct sunshine

just do it

Bob Charles where are you?

Muckit

God this thread really bombed. I thought there would be a lot of educated lads that could shed a bit of light on this whole area

We hear all this talk of grass measuring. But no talk about quality. Dairy lads should have a real indicator on this through the bulk tank. At what time of the year does grass and silage leave the same?

Milked out

Muckit wrote: »

God this thread really bombed. I thought there would be a lot of educated lads that could shed a bit of light on this whole area

We hear all this talk of grass measuring. But no talk about quality. Dairy lads should have a real indicator on this through the bulk tank. At what time of the year does grass and silage leave the same?

the only time I feed silage ahead of gras is due to weather conditions making it too difficult To graze. What grass lacks this time of year Is energy which is generally cheaper to balance than silage as protein would also be needed for the silage. I spose fresh calvers would be housed first as It Is easier to give them a consistent diet and make sure they are getting enough energy in to them. But like that It's weather rather than grass quality that dictates really, grass is the cheapest feed.

mf240

Muckit wrote: »

God this thread really bombed. I thought there would be a lot of educated lads that could shed a bit of light on this whole area

We hear all this talk of grass measuring. But no talk about quality. Dairy lads should have a real indicator on this through the bulk tank. At what time of the year does grass and silage leave the same?

Not scientific but milk lactose will drop when sugars in grass drop. Grass protien tends to hold better than grass energy /sugars at this time.

I find in spring if theres enough grass there not pushed about silage but give them a sniff of silage in oct/ nov and they will stuff themselves and leave grass.

Good loser

Muckit wrote: »

God this thread really bombed. I thought there would be a lot of educated lads that could shed a bit of light on this whole area

We hear all this talk of grass measuring. But no talk about quality. Dairy lads should have a real indicator on this through the bulk tank. At what time of the year does grass and silage leave the same?

Pudsey will have the answer, I'm sure.

Wonder is the dry matter the key? Does dm depend on rainfall? Or how long the grass has been growing.

I have found feeding ration to Friesians for 6/7 weeks from Sept on improves grading very little. Always on good grass.

AP2014

Muckit wrote: »

Watching the weather there one evening and Evelyn was saying that the leaves start falling off the trees around the same time every year regardless of the weather.

It just got me thinking. We're into Oct now. Still sh*t loads of grass, but how is it's nutritional value holding up? At what point dies it drop below that of silage wraps taken out in say May?

Grass still fairly high dm with there having been no rain but then dews are heavier at night and take longer to dry up come morning. Yet cattle very dry behind - it's not running through them.

So regardless of grass reserves left, is there a 'magic day' in the autumn where grass fails to deliver the same or more of a punch than silage? When should you say stop and house?

Again alot of factors. Are they beef/dairy? Breeding or feeding?

What are people's views on this?

Surprised not more interest in this thread, I'm in the same boat here. Plenty of grass and think I could hold some stores til nearly Dec. I usually sell in groups at end of oct early november.

If I hold some till mid nov early dec and keep them on just grass will they lose weight and go backwards? or still thrive?

If they were still able to put weight on off grass in late November it would give me advantage rather then selling with everyone else at end of October.

st1979

Yea am always surprised about all the talk of kg of dm per hectare and yet none of us really know it's quality. I find it normally easier to graze late than early. but beginning to think late grass is not upto much. once heard it said it was as good as spring grass only due to it being so low in dry matter the cows couldn't take in enough.

just do it

AP
Is weather a factor for you? A few days of this and grass utilisation here will go to sh1t. Will need to house to avoid poaching too

Sam Kade

just do it wrote: »

AP
Is weather a factor for you? A few days of this and grass utilisation here will go to sh1t. Will need to house to avoid poaching too

I've plenty grass for all stock until Christmas. Poaching, we don't know what that is in Cork

Sam Kade

just do it wrote: »

AP
Is weather a factor for you? A few days of this and grass utilisation here will go to sh1t. Will need to house to avoid poaching too

AP doesn't have sheds did you listen to the man all along

AP2014

just do it wrote: »

AP
Is weather a factor for you? A few days of this and grass utilisation here will go to sh1t. Will need to house to avoid poaching too

A few haysheds and old cowsheds. No slatted shed here. But have plenty of a run around the hayshed and a nice hill of grass behind hit could leave them on this if we get much weather like this.

My stock would be 450 to 550kg so not that heavy for poaching unless a lot of bad weather. Interested to know how long could get them performing on grass if weather stayed reasonable.

frazzledhome

We graze all our weanlings for the winter with 2-3 of beef nut. All make breeding weight. 2% empty and 2% calving in April.

Winter cows will be housed when 60% of farm grazed, Springs will remain out doors till grazed with no silage.

AP2014

frazzledhome wrote: »

We graze all our weanlings for the winter with 2-3 of beef nut. All make breeding weight. 2% empty and 2% calving in April.

Winter cows will be housed when 60% of farm grazed, Springs will remain out doors till grazed with no silage.

Would the weanlings be ok and do well with no silage even in bad weather? 2-3kg of nuts a day? So for 10 weanlings are you looking at a bag a day? €8 a day would be expensive.

frazzledhome

AP2014 wrote: »

Would the weanlings be ok and do well with no silage even in bad weather? 2-3kg of nuts a day? So for 10 weanlings are you looking at a bag a day? €8 a day would be expensive.

They're controlled, not roaming the farm. They all make breeding weights. If we ever have to house its the smaller ones we leave out as they'll thrive better than silage.

AP2014

frazzledhome wrote: »

They're controlled, not roaming the farm. They all make breeding weights. If we ever have to house its the smaller ones we leave out as they'll thrive better than silage.

Cheers, I might buy a few weanlings early next year. I usually buy March but will get a few in Feb. My main fear does be pneumonia. Will give them access to a hayshed and keep them in one field.

Greengrass1

frazzledhome wrote: »

They're controlled, not roaming the farm. They all make breeding weights. If we ever have to house its the smaller ones we leave out as they'll thrive better than silage.

Im going to try copy you this yr on that. If I can keeo them out to Christmas it'll save alot of travelling in tractor

Farmer Pudsey

If you have grass graze it out. Start to close a week earlier, especially if grazing heavy covers as ground will take longer to recover and tiller. As a beef farmer I would not wory about having heavy covers in March. Cattle will do better outside that time of year than inside. On goodish silage inside after 120 days cattle will be stale. Heavy covers will be high in DM in March.

Always found that lighter cattle do better on heavy covers at the end of the year. especially weanlings. Feed them 1-2kgs of a good high energy ration and a diet of straw. They really power ahead. If you replace silage with grass for these type of cattle you are reducing cost by 50-80c/day. No point in feeding higher levels of ration as you want them to consume a lot of grass. Even light year and a halfs(400ish kgs) will bomb along as well.

frazzledhome

Your SR and amount if grass dictate the amount of meal fed

Reggie.

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

If you have grass graze it out. Start to close a week earlier, especially if grazing heavy covers as ground will take longer to recover and tiller. As a beef farmer I would not wory about having heavy covers in March. Cattle will do better outside that time of year than inside. On goodish silage inside after 120 days cattle will be stale. Heavy covers will be high in DM in March.

Always found that lighter cattle do better on heavy covers at the end of the year. especially weanlings. Feed them 1-2kgs of a good high energy ration and a diet of straw. They really power ahead. If you replace silage with grass for these type of cattle you are reducing cost by 50-80c/day. No point in feeding higher levels of ration as you want them to consume a lot of grass. Even light year and a halfs(400ish kgs) will bomb along as well.

I'm hoping to out winter my 6 calves this year and avoid housing altogether

AP2014

frazzledhome wrote: »

Your SR and amount if grass dictate the amount of meal fed

Does the yellow colour in the grass indicate that it is lacking nutrition? Some grass though.

Greengrass1

frazzledhome wrote: »

Your SR and amount if grass dictate the amount of meal fed

What month was that? They wouldn't look as good in s shed.
Why dont more farmers do this?

Bullocks

Reggie. wrote: »

I'm hoping to out winter my 6 calves this year and avoid housing altogether

Would really light weanlings be better value and easier out wintered think ?

@ Pudsey would light weanlins graze longish covers out as well as bigger cattle ?

just do it

Greengrass1 wrote: »

Im going to try copy you this yr on that. If I can keeo them out to Christmas it'll save alot of travelling in tractor

Just shows we're living worlds apart. Tried it last year with 10 weanling heifers on 1 day paddocks on my driest land with adequate cover and it was a disaster. I'd to house them in mid-Dec.

Bullocks

AP2014 wrote: »

Does the yellow colour in the grass indicate that it is lacking nutrition? Some grass though.

Some of ours is burnt yellow from the dryness in the last while

Greengrass1

just do it wrote: »

Just shows we're living worlds apart. Tried it last year with 10 weanling heifers on 1 day paddocks on my driest land with adequate cover and it was a disaster. I'd to house them in mid-Dec.

Thats still a big saving. Did they still thrive for you?
Ive calves on two day blocks now run the real down by ditch so they can get water. Thats messed alright but thats easy fixed.
We had a very dry November and December here last yr

just do it

frazzledhome wrote: »

Your SR and amount if grass dictate the amount of meal fed

How does the ground perform come Springtime? With dry land and low rainfall I can't see that it would be affected. Do they graze down to 4cm?

frazzledhome

Greengrass1 wrote: »

Thats still a big saving. Did they still thrive for you?
Ive calves on two day blocks now run the real down by ditch so they can get water. Thats messed alright but thats easy fixed.
We had a very dry November and December here last yr

Why throw meal in one spot?

mf240

Had no silage for the wealings in winter 2012/13 due to having fed cows all summer and got locked up so couldnt sell. Left them out on ration and the run of a rented farm. They were grand.

just do it

Greengrass1 wrote: »

Thats still a big saving. Did they still thrive for you?
Ive calves on two day blocks now run the real down by ditch so they can get water. Thats messed alright but thats easy fixed.
We had a very dry November and December here last yr

Yeah they thrived alright. The healthiest cattle I see around here are outwintered on sandhills on the coast. Good coat of hair and weather isn't an issue. Fit and ready to take off with fresh spring grass.

Last Nov was dry alright but we'd very heavy rain in Dec.

frazzledhome

AP2014 wrote: »

Does the yellow colour in the grass indicate that it is lacking nutrition? Some grass though.

Here's one with no yellow

frazzledhome

just do it wrote: »

How does the ground perform come Springtime? With dry land and low rainfall I can't see that it would be affected. Do they graze down to 4cm?

Graze to -4:). Nothing till April
An odd block gets mucked up but if you move before daylight it's 99%

just do it

I also note the reseed didn't take as well on the 1 day paddocks they were in on particularly wet days (2 or 3 of them in particular).

It was worth a try but don't you just love the lads after that are just dying to tell you "sure I could have told you..."

Greengrass1

frazzledhome wrote: »

Why throw meal in one spot?

Think ye mistook meal for reel

trixi2011

frazzledhome wrote: »

Here's one with no yellow

Grass in them pictures would be fair high in dm I would be thinking

AP2014

frazzledhome wrote: »

Here's one with no yellow

Ha, on a serious note presume the yellowish colour won't stop them eating it? Just wonder is it lacking much nutrition.

Limestone Cowboy

just do it wrote: »

Yeah they thrived alright. The healthiest cattle I see around here are outwintered on sandhills on the coast. Good coat of hair and weather isn't an issue. Fit and ready to take off with fresh spring grass.

Last Nov was dry alright but we'd very heavy rain in Dec.

I don't think weather bothers cattle one bit, the issue is if your ground can keep them afloat and not get poached. I know a few fellas the keep cattle on the dunes aswell and they are better than any shed. It's frowned upon now though I think!

frazzledhome

Greengrass1 wrote: »

What month was that? They wouldn't look as good in s shed.
Why dont more farmers do this?

Simple, land type, lack of N. really need to load in mid Aug. easier in the shed

frazzledhome

AP2014 wrote: »

Ha, on a serious note presume the yellowish colour won't stop them eating it? Just wonder is it lacking much nutrition.

That was Jan I think, so dormant for a while. That would go to spring ground a few weeks later. This isn't for all, land type good electric fence

Reggie.

frazzledhome wrote: »

Here's one with no yellow

Frosty

frazzledhome

Reggie. wrote: »

Frosty

Specially chilled:)

just do it

frazzledhome wrote: »

Here's one with no yellow

lol

just do it

frazzledhome wrote: »

Graze to -4:). Nothing till April
An odd block gets mucked up but if you move before daylight it's 99%

Yeah they get restless at daybreak alright. Most moves happen here before 6.30am

AP2014

frazzledhome wrote: »

That was Jan I think, so dormant for a while. That would go to spring ground a few weeks later. This isn't for all, land type good electric fence

Worth thinking about, cheers.

Reggie.

frazzledhome wrote: »

Specially chilled:)

Coors rocky mountain cold

frazzledhome

just do it wrote: »

Yeah they get restless at daybreak alright. Most moves happen here before 6.30am

Jaysus ya must have her heart broke:)