Criticising Referees after matches

gaffer91

Many of you might have noticed a bit of talk going on at the moment regarding Brian Cody's comments about referee Barry Kelly's perceived "criminal" decision making in the drawn hurling final.

There seems to be a reluctance to criticise referees in the GAA, both out of fear of CCCC sanction and because it seems to generally be perceived to be "sour grapes" especially if the team doing the criticising has just lost the game.

I think this is nonsense personally. The standard of refereeing in some high profile GAA games has been woefully under par. Straight off the top of my head I can think of things like Cormac Reilly not sending off Shane Enright, Clare getting some inexplicable extra time to tag an equaliser on in the hurling final last year and Dublin infamously getting handed the 2011 All Ireland by virtue of a shocking refereeing performance by Joe McQuillan.

While I accept it's an amateur game and refereeing is a hard job, I think players train so diligently throughout the year they deserve to not have their season fall apart because of a poor refereeing performance, and if a performance is so under-par to the point where it tips the balance in favour of one side, then yes, I think the referee deserves criticism. Any thoughts on criticising refs or the standard of refereeing in GAA in general?

elefant

I give out stink with the best of them during matches, watching or playing.

But after the game is over I try to just let it be. What's the point at that stage? Venting about a past refereeing performance isn't going to get you anywhere; better off focusing on things you can change yourself. No referee goes out with the intention of making mistakes, same as the players.

spacetrap

gaffer91 wrote: »

Many of you might have noticed a bit of talk going on at the moment regarding Brian Cody's comments about referee Barry Kelly's perceived "criminal" decision making in the drawn hurling final.

There seems to be a reluctance to criticise referees in the GAA, both out of fear of CCCC sanction and because it seems to generally be perceived to be "sour grapes" especially if the team doing the criticising has just lost the game.

I think this is nonsense personally. The standard of refereeing in some high profile GAA games has been woefully under par. Straight off the top of my head I can think of things like Cormac Reilly not sending off Shane Enright, Clare getting some inexplicable extra time to tag an equaliser on in the hurling final last year and Dublin infamously getting handed the 2011 All Ireland by virtue of a shocking refereeing performance by Joe McQuillan.

While I accept it's an amateur game and refereeing is a hard job, I think players train so diligently throughout the year they deserve to not have their season fall apart because of a poor refereeing performance, and if a performance is so under-par to the point where it tips the balance in favour of one side, then yes, I think the referee deserves criticism. Any thoughts on criticising refs or the standard of refereeing in GAA in general?

Clare getting some inexplicable extra time to tag an equaliser on in the hurling final last year

I presume this is the same game that Shane O Neill should have been red carded and the same game in which Corks forwards notably Pa cronin got countless frees for collapsing. The time added on is a minimum time which has been decided by the referee and he also can add more if he wishes. I cant understand why people dont seem to understand this.

Hammer Archer

I'm one to criticise referees during and/or after games. But some of the crazy abuse (verbal and physical) dished out to referees at games from senior intercounty all the way down to juvenile level is astonishing. I do think the standard of refereeing is poor at the moment, but I would never in a million years become a referee myself. Sure I've even seen team's U12 mentor punch a neutral umpire in a county final. Why would I give up part of my weekend and some week nights just to have abuse screamed at me from 30 players on the field, another 20-30 people on the sideline and (in the case of intercounty games) thousands of people in the crowd no matter what decision I make.

adrian522

spacetrap wrote: »

Clare getting some inexplicable extra time to tag an equaliser on in the hurling final last year

I presume this is the same game that Shane O Neill should have been red carded and the same game in which Corks forwards notably Pa cronin got countless frees for collapsing. The time added on is a minimum time which has been decided by the referee and he also can add more if he wishes. I cant understand why people dont seem to understand this.

What people don't understand is that the ref will add on time if one team is trailing by a point but blow up immediately if the game is a draw. It's completely ridiculous.

The Lost Sheep

gaffer91 wrote: »

Many of you might have noticed a bit of talk going on at the moment regarding Brian Cody's comments about referee Barry Kelly's perceived "criminal" decision making in the drawn hurling final.

There seems to be a reluctance to criticise referees in the GAA, both out of fear of CCCC sanction and because it seems to generally be perceived to be "sour grapes" especially if the team doing the criticising has just lost the game.

I think this is nonsense personally. The standard of refereeing in some high profile GAA games has been woefully under par. Straight off the top of my head I can think of things like Cormac Reilly not sending off Shane Enright, Clare getting some inexplicable extra time to tag an equaliser on in the hurling final last year and Dublin infamously getting handed the 2011 All Ireland by virtue of a shocking refereeing performance by Joe McQuillan.

While I accept it's an amateur game and refereeing is a hard job, I think players train so diligently throughout the year they deserve to not have their season fall apart because of a poor refereeing performance, and if a performance is so under-par to the point where it tips the balance in favour of one side, then yes, I think the referee deserves criticism. Any thoughts on criticising refs or the standard of refereeing in GAA in general?

Its part and parcel of the association and I speak as a qualified referee of rugby, I would never ever referee a game of hurling/gaelic for the grief I would get no matter what the level from players/supporters/coaches
I don't see a reluctance in the GAA for criticism of referees.
Referees are human, will make mistakes but don't deserve the criticism they get at times.

elefant wrote: »

I give out stink with the best of them during matches, watching or playing.

But after the game is over I try to just let it be. What's the point at that stage? Venting about a past refereeing performance isn't going to get you anywhere; better off focusing on things you can change yourself. No referee goes out with the intention of making mistakes, same as the players.

+1

Hammer Archer wrote: »

I'm one to criticise referees during and/or after games. But some of the crazy abuse (verbal and physical) dished out to referees at games from senior intercounty all the way down to juvenile level is astonishing. I do think the standard of refereeing is poor at the moment, but I would never in a million years become a referee myself. Sure I've even seen team's U12 mentor punch a neutral umpire in a county final. Why would I give up part of my weekend and some week nights just to have abuse screamed at me from 30 players on the field, another 20-30 people on the sideline and (in the case of intercounty games) thousands of people in the crowd no matter what decision I make.

The bit in red is a major problem. Lots of people will admit there is issues with the officiating in games but few will be anywhere near brave enough to take up the whistle as it just isn't worth it.
It would take a massive change in attitudes from all levels of the association for attitudes towards referees to change

adrian522 wrote: »

What people don't understand is that the ref will add on time if one team is trailing by a point but blow up immediately if the game is a draw. It's completely ridiculous.

That isn't true though. Referees don't play for draws. Why would they? Any good referee will not care who wins/loses just that they have the best game they possibly can

Fr Tod Umptious

At the end of the day the ref is rarely the one that decides the outcome of the game.

Mayo v Kerry in Limerick - Mayo should have won it if they played better.

Dublin v Kerry in '11, Kerry had a lead going into the final minutes.

adrian522

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

That isn't true though. Referees don't play for draws. Why would they? Any good referee will not care who wins/loses just that they have the best game they possibly can

In my experience it actually is true and I don't know why. All too often the game is blown up as soon as it is level but if one team is behind an extra minute or sometimes more is added on, it's utterly crazy.

Clareman

Amateur game played and officiate by amateurs, mistakes will be made and will always being an area for discussion.

who_me

How do you define poor refereeing? No ref will see every foul - he sees the action once, from one angle, at full speed, through/past several players, often from a distance (especially in hurling where no ref or player can keep up with the ball). On TV we see the action multiple times from multiple angles with elevated cameras and zoomed & slow-motion replays. It's not that referees are missing more, but the TV is picking up more. Even attending in person, if you're standing in a different spot you'll see & miss different fouls depending on your vantage point.

I don't have any problem with talking about helping / improving the standard of refereeing, but I don't see any point in singling out individual referees for criticism. Not as if they ignore stuff deliberately or blow up needlessly for the giggles.

Clareman

2 examples would be last year and this years All Ireland Hurling Final. Last year Cork get a placed ball just as normal time was running out, after ~1 minute the ball went dead, the referee decides to allow the time that was lost while taking the free to be played out, result is Clare get the equalizer. Referee is completely right as the extra time is just a minimum amount of time indicator and not the actual time to be played.

This year, Tipperary get a placed ball just as normal time is playing out, after ~1 minute the ball went dead, the referee decides that that's enough of that, because the minimum amount of time has been played the referee is completely right to play on.

I think a lot that is wrong with referees and their performance is down to perception, last year's drawn game I thought the ref was shocking to Clare and gave Cork all the breaks, Cork thought the ref was shocking because of giving the extra time to allow Clare equalize, imvho the best referees are the ones you don't even notice. I would recommend anyone try to be a ref for even an underage game, it is an extremely difficult thing to do and it's very easy to fall into traps such as making up for mistakes or helping a team.

adrian522

But there are loads of examples of this "playing for a draw" be in conscious or sub conscious it certainly happens.

You have given 2 examples there of where you think it was justified, presumably you think it was concidence that teams happened to be level when the ref decided that enough time had been played.

Better examples would be where one team goes a point up as extra time runs out and no "bonus" time is allowed.

Kikenny v Galway this year, Shefflin scores as additional time runs out but an extra bit is allowed to see if Galway can score.
Kilkenny v Waterford last year game is blown dead as a player is taking a shot that would win the game.

These are just off the top of my head, this happens all the time, literally 5 or 6 times per inter county season.

The Lost Sheep

adrian522 wrote: »

In my experience it actually is true and I don't know why. All too often the game is blown up as soon as it is level but if one team is behind an extra minute or sometimes more is added on, it's utterly crazy.

People constantly say it but I don't see it. Referees don't sub consciously play for draws. If they did we would see much more draws then we do already.

adrian522 wrote: »

But there are loads of examples of this "playing for a draw" be in conscious or sub conscious it certainly happens.

You have given 2 examples there of where you think it was justified, presumably you think it was concidence that teams happened to be level when the ref decided that enough time had been played.

Better examples would be where one team goes a point up as extra time runs out and no "bonus" time is allowed.

Kikenny v Galway this year, Shefflin scores as additional time runs out but an extra bit is allowed to see if Galway can score.
Kilkenny v Waterford last year game is blown dead as a player is taking a shot that would win the game.

These are just off the top of my head, this happens all the time, literally 5 or 6 times per inter county season.

Yes coincidence.

adrian522

OK, must have been dreaming it for the past 25 years so.:rolleyes:

Mal-Adjusted

gaffer91 wrote: »

There seems to be a reluctance to criticise referees in the GAA, both out of fear of CCCC sanction and because it seems to generally be perceived to be "sour grapes" especially if the team doing the criticising has just lost the game.

In fairness, referees are scrutinized more than ever now. We all saw Davy whinge and moan about the ref after every game, the Sunday Game seemed to be constantly discussing the refs and if an incident was a free or not (with the help of multiple camera angles and slow-mo). Bitching about a ref in a game you didn't loose 3 weeks ago the day after winning the all-Ireland though? that takes the biscuit.

gaffer91 wrote: »

Clare getting some inexplicable extra time to tag an equaliser on in the hurling final last year.

Just on this one, two minutes was just the minimum, and refs will routinely go over if they feel necessary. There was also a lot of time-killing within those two minutes regarding placing for frees and a sideline cut that warranted more time being added.

gaffer91 wrote: »

I think the referee deserves criticism. Any thoughts on criticizing refs or the standard of refereeing in GAA in general?

I think the way Rugby does it is the best. Any disrespect to the ref is dealt with harshly and his performance is assessed and graded quietly behind closed doors. It really is bad form to air grievances like this in public.

elguapo

There is a tolerance within the GAA community for people who are seen to be standing up to officialdom, and referees are the obvious target.
That clown who tried to get at Cormac Reilly during the Mayo-Kerry game should have been escorted to the nearest Garda station, not having people fawn over him in Supermacs afterwards. I've seen several commenters on this site in the past comment that referees getting chased off the field were "asking for it". Cody calling the decision 'criminal' is pure hysteria, and I hope he's punished.

I just started refereeing soccer games this year and, when a friend asked me would I think about doing it for gaelic football, I scoffed. GAA referees are generally viewed with contempt, and there seems to be no real concerted effort to try and change that. I'd have very little hope that the situation will get better in the foreseeable future.

Boom__Boom

Fingers crossed the whole timekeeping aspect will be taken away from the refs next year [was due to be this year but for problems in the Sigerson] which should make their life easier.

I'd also like to see more blame being sent in the direction of the umpires and linesmen, especially in terms of off-the-ball stuff.

All too often at games you see something happen off the ball and the umpires/linesmen do nothing.

On the very odd occasion the umpires/linesmen bring it to the ref's attention its the standard "2 yellows to both and cut out the messing" spiel.

I also wish the refs would use the black card more for the offences
4. Threaten or to use abusive or provocative language or gestures to an opponent or a teammate.
5. Remonstrate in an aggressive manner with a Match Official.

Has anyone ever been given a black card for these two offences ?
Pretty sure it hasnt happened at inter-county level and havent seen it at club level either.

The refs should announce they are going on a blitz with this at the start of next year and show zero tolerance for this - would straight away cut out a rake of messing. If lads know there is a chance of being sent to the sideline for this sort of stuff, they are immediately going to know that acting the maggot is a lot riskier [2 lads are a hell of a lot less likely to come to blows if they havent just spent every minute the ball is at the other end of the pitch insulting each other]

ciarriaithuaidh

Give out about refs myself enough and honestly do think the standard of Football refereeing in Inter-county is poor right now...but the abuse refs have to put up with is just insane. I have no idea what drives them to do it AND people needn't forget that without refs we'd have no games. I think there is a dire need for recruitment of former county players to get involved or at least players who played at a decent level. Some of the refs out there now, don't really convince you that they actually know the game well enough.

Ash.J.Williams

adrian522 wrote: »

What people don't understand is that the ref will add on time if one team is trailing by a point but blow up immediately if the game is a draw. It's completely ridiculous.

This years drawn final had ONE minute extra time....that seemed odd to me.

robbiezero

adrian522 wrote: »

In my experience it actually is true and I don't know why. All too often the game is blown up as soon as it is level but if one team is behind an extra minute or sometimes more is added on, it's utterly crazy.

I imagine the referees get far less abuse or criticism when the game ends up a draw. Both teams are often happy enough, whereas when a team loses by a point all the referees decisions on that game come under scrutiny and he may get the flak for losing the game as there will always be at least one wrong call against the losing team.

BonnieSituation

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

People constantly say it but I don't see it. Referees don't sub consciously play for draws. If they did we would see much more draws then we do already.
Yes coincidence.

You don't see the ref's subconscious decisions? Phew!

zetecescort

Boom__Boom wrote: »

Fingers crossed the whole timekeeping aspect will be taken away from the refs next year [was due to be this year but for problems in the Sigerson] which should make their life easier.

I'd also like to see more blame being sent in the direction of the umpires and linesmen, especially in terms of off-the-ball stuff.

All too often at games you see something happen off the ball and the umpires/linesmen do nothing.

On the very odd occasion the umpires/linesmen bring it to the ref's attention its the standard "2 yellows to both and cut out the messing" spiel.

I also wish the refs would use the black card more for the offences
4. Threaten or to use abusive or provocative language or gestures to an opponent or a teammate.
5. Remonstrate in an aggressive manner with a Match Official.

Has anyone ever been given a black card for these two offences ?
Pretty sure it hasnt happened at inter-county level and havent seen it at club level either.

The refs should announce they are going on a blitz with this at the start of next year and show zero tolerance for this - would straight away cut out a rake of messing. If lads know there is a chance of being sent to the sideline for this sort of stuff, they are immediately going to know that acting the maggot is a lot riskier [2 lads are a hell of a lot less likely to come to blows if they havent just spent every minute the ball is at the other end of the pitch insulting each other]

how many times has there been a blitz on any rule in the league but forgotten by June or July. would gladly put up with refs applying the rules as in the rulebook (not interpretations), a year or two of stop start games if it clean up the niggly stuff once and for all

TCDStudent1

Boom__Boom wrote: »

Fingers crossed the whole timekeeping aspect will be taken away from the refs next year [was due to be this year but for problems in the Sigerson] which should make their life easier.

I'd also like to see more blame being sent in the direction of the umpires and linesmen, especially in terms of off-the-ball stuff.

All too often at games you see something happen off the ball and the umpires/linesmen do nothing.

On the very odd occasion the umpires/linesmen bring it to the ref's attention its the standard "2 yellows to both and cut out the messing" spiel.

I also wish the refs would use the black card more for the offences
4. Threaten or to use abusive or provocative language or gestures to an opponent or a teammate.
5. Remonstrate in an aggressive manner with a Match Official.

Has anyone ever been given a black card for these two offences ?
Pretty sure it hasnt happened at inter-county level and havent seen it at club level either.

The refs should announce they are going on a blitz with this at the start of next year and show zero tolerance for this - would straight away cut out a rake of messing. If lads know there is a chance of being sent to the sideline for this sort of stuff, they are immediately going to know that acting the maggot is a lot riskier [2 lads are a hell of a lot less likely to come to blows if they havent just spent every minute the ball is at the other end of the pitch insulting each other]

Could there be an argument for a tennis like system where a team needs to win by 2 scores? I think that would also eliminate the whole playing for a draw aspect. I'd limit it to just in extra time though.

realweirdo

There should be an official way to criticise a ref without there being a sanction on a manager.

Its totally unfair that teams and players can train all year only for a ref to have a mare and cost them a game.

Its understandable that players and managers will be very frustrated after this.

And its only right that referees should not be above criticism.

There are a lot of good refs out there, there are some shocking bad ones too though.

Fr Tod Umptious

realweirdo wrote: »

There should be an official way to criticise a ref without there being a sanction on a manager.

Its totally unfair that teams and players can train all year only for a ref to have a mare and cost them a game.

Its understandable that players and managers will be very frustrated after this.

And its only right that referees should not be above criticism.

There are a lot of good refs out there, there are some shocking bad ones too though.

I agree that there should be some procedure where teams can air their grievances with a ref, but privately within the GAA and not in the public airways.
And if those grievances are found to be legitimate they can then be part of the referee assessment process.

But as I said before there are very few situation where the ref is wholly responsible for a team losing a game.
The only one I can remember is the 2010 Leinster Football Final.

So this whinge of guys training all years only to be robbed by a ref is BS for the most part.

elefant

The rules themselves need to be improved and clarified to help referees, and to aid referee assessment.

The rules relating to the tackle in football, for example, are extremely blurry. In other similiar sports (I'm thinking Aussie Rules especially) the laws on tackling are very clear. It should be abundantly clear to everyone if something is a foul or not, and not a situation where you could watch a reply ten times and some people would give a free and others wouldn't.

bucketybuck

The biggest amusement for me are the people complaining about Cody waiting until after the final to make his comments.

If he makes them after a loss it is sour grapes, if he makes them after the draw he is trying to influence the ref, and if he waits until he has won then its just bad form.

FFS then just when is he allowed to point out those horrendous decsions?

rpurfield

robbiezero wrote: »

I imagine the referees get far less abuse or criticism when the game ends up a draw. Both teams are often happy enough, whereas when a team loses by a point all the referees decisions on that game come under scrutiny and he may get the flak for losing the game as there will always be at least one wrong call against the losing team.

I'd agree with this now to be honest. If the call goes up additional time at least two minutes and its a draw at the end of them two minutes, the first think levelled at the ref if he lets it go over and a team scores to win is that they played on too long!!

I'm no hurling expert but it seems to me a lot of big hurling names are only too keen to jump on Barry Kelly too. Theres been a few times watching games on RTE I got the feeling Duignan had decided during the week that because Barry Kelly is the ref he is going to slate him. Now the free he gave Tipp was soft enough, but would a Cork or Offaly or Waterford ref have got the same stick over it?

elguapo

bucketybuck wrote: »

The biggest amusement for me are the people complaining about Cody waiting until after the final to make his comments.

If he makes them after a loss it is sour grapes, if he makes them after the draw he is trying to influence the ref, and if he waits until he has won then its just bad form.

FFS then just when is he allowed to point out those horrendous decsions?

He can point them out whenever he wants, but why is he pointing out these decisions to the media and thereby the entire country, rather than doing it in private through the referee's committee? It's nasty, spiteful behaviour, and I really hope the GAA pull him up on it.

realweirdo

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

I agree that there should be some procedure where teams can air their grievances with a ref, but privately within the GAA and not in the public airways.
And if those grievances are found to be legitimate they can then be part of the referee assessment process.

But as I said before there are very few situation where the ref is wholly responsible for a team losing a game.
The only one I can remember is the 2010 Leinster Football Final.

So this whinge of guys training all years only to be robbed by a ref is BS for the most part.

I absolutely couldn't disagree more with this. Tight games where teams are evenly matched can be decided by one or two decisions either way. Yes refs make mistakes in the heat of the battle. You could forgive one or two glaring mistakes. But a raft of glaring mistakes or just one awful pathetic mistake where a team gains advantage not in keeping with the rules of the game, that's unforgiveable. And it can and does ensure victory for one team or other. A bad ref really can act like a 16th man for one team.

I'm not going to focus on one game or other. Over the course of a couple of years, decisions even out for teams.

There are games where teams lose because they aren't good enough. But there are games where teams lose because of poor refereeing, no mistake about.

If two players are sent off because of a brawl for example which neither player had much to do with, one is a marquee player for a team, the other average enough. Who do you think has the advantage for the rest of the game? And not just a slight advantage, but a huge advantage.

Refs can and do decide games, not all games, some games.

elguapo

realweirdo wrote: »

If two players are sent off because of a brawl for example which neither player had much to do with, one is a marquee player for a team, the other average enough. Who do you think has the advantage for the rest of the game? And not just a slight advantage, but a huge advantage.

Just say you're still sore over Liam McHale in 1996, no need to be so cryptic.

realweirdo

elguapo wrote: »

Just say you're still sore over Liam McHale in 1996, no need to be so cryptic.

Haha...nah not sore at all. I used it as an example. I'm sure I could have come up with more. It's the best known example.

There are other examples like it. Let's say your best player, your free-taker for example was sent off in the wrong. Or a key player was sent off wrongly.

(And no I'm not just talking about Cillian O'Connor!)

Let's say a point was given in error, or a goal awarded in error or disallowed in error

The point I am making is that players deserve a very high standard of refereeing and not some of the clowns they often get refereeing.

Fr Tod Umptious

realweirdo wrote: »

Haha...nah not sore at all. I used it as an example. I'm sure I could have come up with more. It's the best known example.

There are other examples like it. Let's say your best player, your free-taker for example was sent off in the wrong. Or a key player was sent off wrongly.

(And no I'm not just talking about Cillian O'Connor!)

Let's say a point was given in error, or a goal awarded in error or disallowed in error

The point I am making is that players deserve a very high standard of refereeing and not some of the clowns they often get refereeing.

McHale got sent off early in that game, they had plenty of opportunity to win it after that, Meath only won by a point.


Other than the 2010 Leinster final which I mentioned already, find me a game were a refereeing decision was the sole reason for the result ?

realweirdo

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

McHale got sent off early in that game, they had plenty of opportunity to win it after that, Meath only won by a point.

OK I'm not going to drag up this episode again and my point had little to do with the Mayo Meath game and more to do with having a very good player sent off unfairly which immediately hands an advantage to another team. Not sure how a good player getting sent off early is supposed to make a difference. If anything its worse than being sent off towards the end of a game.

That aside, bad refs do cost teams games. There's no doubt about it. But when the game is over there's little anyone can do about it unfortunately. The supports for GAA refs are pretty poor though when compared to TMO's acting in rugby matches, where they can get several replays of an incident if they like.

Football and hurling are very fast moving games, and its almost impossible for refs to follow closely the play.

As for refereeing decisions deciding a result, you are talking mainly alternative realities here ie would a team have won if Johnny wasn't sent off, would a team have got back into it if they were awarded a penalty or a 45, or a free near the end. And the problem also is if a team are denied a certain free which would draw a match, you would say, yeh well they had plenty of time to tie the game before it.

For what its worth, I though Tipperary should have had a penalty early in last Saturdays final when a KK defender jumped on his back and brought him to ground. It might well have proved decisive but we don't know. There are always similar decisions in matches.

Just remembered Peter Canavan's point that was disallowed in 1995. There are others if I can think of them.